I got 6 basic lands in my list, and i can play the spell in response to Rishadan.Originally Posted by Brael
And on my last tournament, i was paired against D&T and i had lots of mana
Thalia increases the cost of it too.
Most of the time if you're relying on a 5+ mana spell against either d&t or Eldrazi you're probably dead before it resolves. Against D&T in particular you can't kill all their stuff if they've used Recruiter to get a couple of Flickerwisps, which means even if you do resolve it it doesn't necessarily stabilize you.
Games against D&T go in two directions, either they deny you mana and you're operating on 2-3 mana all game, or that plan fails and you get about 6.
In either event, Thalia increases costs and 3 mana Thalia delays you 1-2 turns. Then there's port and wasteland. On top of that, you can't rely purely on basics because 8 fetches+6 basics still leaves you with 8 or so non basic lands that you will be drawing and playing. Getting 6 basics out takes a long time, if you're able to do that, D&T has already lost control of the game.
As a player of both D&T and Nic-Fit, I don't think Volrath's Decree is a particularly good strategy. In the games where you are on 6 lands, maybe even 7, I don't think you really want this card. Basically my feeling is, if you can cast you're already ahead and you just want threats, if you're behind you can't cast it - but would want it. I feel like your desire here is to play a better sampling of cards that can manage/wipe the board. I also recently started considering this post prelate printing. In my experience that card can either lock Nic-Fit out of dealing with the board or just create enough tempo to allow a D&T win. But I feel like a 4 mana wipe of some sort is much preferable to a 6 mana one.
Agreed on a 6-cost card not really being a good answer for D&T. Don't think I like it against Eldrazi either, and it seems way late against Elves (although firing it off as they are in the middle of a glimpse chain would be disgusting). You should be packing ~6 cheap single target removal stuff between Decays and either Path/STP or Bolt/PFire or whatever BUG uses to help handle Mom and Revoker/Prelate/Thalia. From there you have Deed plus whatever sideboard stuff is available, and I always argue in favor of at least 2 cheap sweepers whether it is Golgari Charm, Pyroclasm, or Deluge (especially considering that Elves is on the rise right now). Gaze of Granite is really about the best next thing since it has application against Shardless and other decks packing walkers.
If you are depending upon Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse as single target removal, then yea you are gonna get hated out even more by Prelate. I've never been much of a fan of those.
Sneak is a bit more fortunate having access to Inferno Titan fairly easily which can take out either Mom or another creature by splitting damage.
Speaking of Sneak, there was a user posting on reddit who played it at the GP. According to him, Massacre Wurm killed more people than his Emrakul did. Makes me want to try it out. Access to Wurm + Inferno Titan sounds like creature matchup goes up even higher, especially if we see more of the BUG Leovold lists that run multiple True-Names. Hate the triple BBB in Wurm though.
Korean Saga Crater Hellion gets no love?
-Matt
I think I like Inferno Titan better for Sneak. It's better on an empty board, hits planeswalkers, is castable, is a mana-sink, etc. That said, Massacre Wurm is a blast to play in your 75 in a pod list.
Massacre Wurm is hilarious, but I'd rather have Inferno Titan into an empty board, and if my opponent has creatures both of them do the same thing (i.e. kill everything and probably win me the game) except the Inferno Titan can also take out a Thought-Knot or a Leovold if necessary.
On the Decree thing: 6 basics is nice, but Thalia doesn't care about basics. And whether you get to 6/7 mana or not isn't relevant. The main point is why the hell would you pay 6/7 mana for a card while you can get roughly the same effect for 2/3 mana..?
Seriously.
@Echelon: With the Junk deck, don't you miss AD against Miracles?
Counterbalance become hard to deal with without AD
Counterbalance isn't all that interuptive for this deck. The real problem is Jace/Terminus/StP. You can largely ignore Counterbalance by casting stuff that costs between 3 and 5 mana.
I see. I would sideborad out Explores and Meren against Miracels. 5 Cards in total. Seems okey, right?
3 Explorers, Meren, 2 StP, a DRS, 2/3 CT. CMC 1 cards are pretty useless vs. Miracles.
(Unless they're named Top)
I'm glad you caught that
Can any of the sneak players expand on the punishing grove vs. bolt matter? I haven't played sneak in a bit so I'm curious about that. PF seemed nice against JTMS
They both have some pros and cons.
My struggles with the deck have primarily revolved around early game. Think my record against BUG Delver prior to GP Louis was something like 1-5. Having both an extra Decay and 2 Bolts has vastly improved that. I'm also way more willing to fetch for basics early on (though I should have been doing that more earlier). Bolt gets in earlier against Daze and Thalia and can kill an opponent's turn 1 DRS or Mom. PFire is -only- better if you have both Grove out and time to make use of it. Grove seems very susceptible to Wasteland since we don't have any loam engine to recur it with or ensure it gets into play. Too often I saw one or the other and was annoyed.
Keep in mind that Jace will often Brainstorm as soon as he gets in play, and Bolt immediately takes care of him in that situation (although Bolt is weaker to Counterbalance). One of the first times I was playing with Bolts, I had a situation where I was able to respond like that, as well as play two other spells in that turn since Bolt is so cheap.
Bolt is weaker against Chalice decks, but I haven't been struggling against those. Against stuff like Elves...yeah PFire is probably going to be quite a bit better, but it is still nice to be able to bolt their turn 1 elf when you are on the draw. I feel like I should be ok against Elves, with 2 Bolts, 3 Decays, 3 Deeds, 2 Pyroclasms available in the 75 but it always seems like I'm struggling to get removal on-line against them.
As far as a grinding plan is concerned, the deck is already equipped to win a long game imo. GSZ into just about whatever, Nissa VF, play out a Titan, recur stuff with Stronghold, or just get a fast win with Sneak once you have stabilized at ~5 mana.
I played against Miracles today. I miss AD.
I went bye-1-2.
Lost to Death and Taxes. Game 1: Mull to 4 but libaray help me get in the game but I lost. Game 2 I blowout myself with deed and never recovered.
Mull against Miracles with onelander with GSZ. I got the mana but he got top and CounterBalance. I had 5 drops in my hand.
Match 3: Goblins. Also have to mulligan to six. Too many goblins. Game 2 was grind with Sylvian Library. Golgari Charm kill his goblins and I win with Rhinos. 3 mins left of the round and we went to draw.
Bye on last game. I drew really bad hands today, no Cabal and Veteran combo at all. I need to play more casual with the deck to learn to play it.
Largely agree with above, but wanted to point out that P-Fire is largely better against Death and Taxes and Miracles, which make up a pretty decent percentage of the "winner's metagame" right now. I've had absolutely no trouble against BUG Delver and only some trouble against Pyromancer + Therapy out of Grixis, but there's a lot of variance in Delver decklists and individual play styles with Sneak that could explain our differing experiences. I play all Nic-Fit varieties like midrange control decks and appreciate Sneak for its ability to close quickly at almost any stage. P-Fire is also better against misc. aggro such as merfolk, slivers, goblins, tezzerator, and certain Aluren lists. If Delver begins capturing more of the meta I would likely evaluate removing the P-Fire package myself and would add in Decays and Bolts just as Square_Two has (and maybe a wolf run?). IMO, Sneak is also SLIGHTLY less grindy than Junk because of the combo package, and I appreciate having the P-Fires to help with that deficit.
Respectfully disagree, sir. If a Miracles player is skilled, counterbalance can be extremely relevant. Most players in my meta are running 4x predict now, so the velocity with which they can find the bullets they need for free counters can be problematic even for Nic Fit. They have plenty of Terminus for 6CMC, Force for 5, Jace for 4, Mentor for 3, and no end of 1s and 2s (and most of the 1s and 2s find everything else, so it can be kept on the top of the library). Even 1 free counterspell for Miracles makes FoW or actual counterspell much more valuable for them, especially since most of them are running snapcasters. I tend to look for Decays or a fast hand against them for that reason.
So many little decisions in deckbuilding can affect this matchup, however, and it may just come down to how we like to build and play our respective Fits.
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