SFM preferably gets you a 5 CMC card and probably gets killed before you can use SFM to drop it. If there ever is a build that does want (and need) that extra land, it's the SFM build. You don't want it stuck in your hand, you don't want it to get Dazed, you want mana to be able to return it to your hand and you want to keep casting other cards while you keep that mana open. That's about as mana hungry as you can get. And you want to start doing that as quickly as you can.
The SFM package's hunger for mana is another con for the package. It invites durdling where you could otherwise just go for the throat while not improving any MUs, let alone the important ones.
@Navsi I think you are correct with Ob Nix. That's true on the WW in Sigarda's cost, but the number of times I've hard cast her very much pale in comparison to her fetched appearances, which brings us back to the issue of things being zenithable. Sigarda's WW is not the same as the WW in Elspeth/Gideon's costs. About Gideon specifically, I feel sketched out due to his being susceptible in the 6/6 mode to something as simple as a go for the throat as it's just damage prevented.
Right now I feel like the planeswalker tech I'm most interested in running is Grim Nemesis and Garruk R. I'm not sure I want to cut another thing, although maybe I would run GR in the SB and potentially even have another planeswalker in the SB to bring in like Vraska or Ob Nix. That is probably going to hard though, 2 PW seems like a pretty good number at least going into it. Lately I've been trying to maintain MB space for at least 1 more hand disruption and a chant or Abeyance or two. I know abeyance hits miracles harder but it feels pretty good to pseudo time walk an eldrazi player with the kicker on chant, turns out. Fortunately storm is blown out either way
I kinda like Elspeth Tirel. Yes her + sucks, but the turn after you cast her she wipes away any and all opposing permanents. Vs. Miracles that means no more Jace AND no more CounterTop for a turn. She can also produce 3 tokens every other turn to keep pressuring Terminus and fuck with StP. It may not be the best finisher, but she is a finisher that reduces anything your opponent drops on the field to probably not even a speedbump if she manages to stick around for a while.
I would want to run Garruk, Primal Hunter. +1 to make a 3/3 is nuts. Maybe the massive amount of ramp'd allow us to pay for the GGG reliably..?
I don't like Gideon as he can be answered easily like any other creature.
hopefully it is not mentor miracles because all their tokens will be alive as well.Originally Posted by Echelon
I considered primal hunter as well and I think GGG is possible. we are running at least 3 green standard, plus 2 bayou and 1 or two savannah which means we have access to 6-7 green sources.
the +1 is insane in grindy matchups and a 3/3 token is a also a quick clock. but do we want to run 3 PW in our sideboard? sorin, g relentless and g p hunter ?
I would like to play 20 cards already
On the other hand, clearing away CounterTop for the turn so you can resolve a Deed is also a thing.
Also, who's talking about SB?
- Sorin Lord of Innistrad sucks. The +1 has too little impact, the -2 doesnt fit our game plan and the ultimate is unrealistic.
- Elspeth Tirel sucks, too. The +1 does nothing, the -2 doesnt fit our game plan. The ultimate is unrealistic. Why would she live if you just spent 5 Mana doing absolutely nothing? Even against Miracles mediocre at best, against everything else almost dead.
- Garruk PH is solid. The mana cost is acceptable, 2GGG is not too hard, only bad if you have Plains plus Swamp plus Tower. About half the time he should be castable with 5 lands, the other half with 6 lands. His +1 is very good and the -3 has great synergy with Sigarda. But on the other hand he has no way to defend himself and the initial loyalty is low.
- Ob Nixilis is also solid. High initial loyalty good +1 and solid -3. His big problem is that he gets awkward when you are low on life.
- Sorin Grim Nemesis is simply perfect. High initial loyalty, helps you stabilize against beatdown with removal+life gain, helps you win grindy matchups with the +1. Trumps Gurmag Angler and very importantly Reality Smasher. Icing on the cake is the EtB destroy Jace TMS.
- I like Garruk Apex Predator (or Karn Liberated) a lot, as a 1-off. Sure, the mana cost is extreme, but the effect is insane. For 2 Mana more compared to Primal Hunter you get a) deathtouch on your Beasts, b) an immediate lifegain+removal option, c) a destroy Planeswalker option and d) 2 extra loyalty.
She comes down the turn after Siege Rhino/assorted other blockers so she can quite likely tick up safely once. How is the ultimate unrealistic, especially since the deck you'd actively look for her doesn't present a clock in the first 10 or so turns? It's +2, by the way. So after the first -5 she sticks around.
For just 1 mana extra you get Ugin. Where do we draw the line? 7 is too much. We're not maindecking Elesh Norn either.
- Elspeth, two cases:
a) You have board control, you have a Rhino, you +1 her, she lives. Then why would you want to blow up the board?
b) Yon don't have board control, you +1 her, she dies.
Either way, the ultimate is not a realistic option.
- Garruk Apex is at least as good as Ugin. Why would you pay extra Mana for a similar effect? We are not playing Elesh because Jace, Liliana, Swords and Terminus laugh at it.
The line is somewhere at 6 or 7 Mana I think. It really depends on the card strength. Garruk is certainly on the edge of that but I do think he is a realistic option due to how insanely good he is.
Resolving it is sweet, but that CMC is just too high to reliably do so. It's a risk I'm personally not willing to take.
Apex Predator should have been 5 or 6 mana to push him into usability.
Elspeth KE is also an excellent combat Walker. The ultimate doesn't win the game, but making things fly and pump is decent. Sorin just does so much more, especially for this deck. I think at 5 mana he would have been REALLY, really good and playable in other decks that aren't ramp, in my opinion.
sorry, I was not referring to the PW MD idea because all of them are too expensive.
personally I will add two to the SB. sorin and one relentless or ph. I only need them in the grindy match up's for all the others I will fight with my big friends.
as mentioned earlier I didn't test the PW too much because I didn't have too many miracles mu's recently.
I swing back and forth if I want to try sorin over baneslayer angel..
I played Pod Fit for a about 1.5 years and eventually gave up on it in favor of Rhinos. My big problem with the BUG Pod lists was that the deck slots are just too tight. You need a minimum number of targets for GSZ, but you also need a minimum number of cards at each CMC for Pod chains, and then you need a higher number of creatures to make Pod work. You can search my previous posts, there's not all that many of them. At some point I was coming up with a deck skeleton in Pod and found you needed about 22 creatures in the list at minimum, and that your best Pod slot is 3 to 4, but your best GSZ is 4 or 5 and the best Pod cards aren't Green. This creates a huge conflict. These days I see another issue that Top is so good but Pod runs fewer Tops and tries to supplement it with Trinket Mage.
Gitrog probably isn't a good enough 5.
A few notes from my 4 rounds with Rhino Time:
1. Rhino Time is such a sick burn.
2. More sacrifice outlets for V.Ex seems useful. I ran 4 Therapies, 1 Phyrexian Tower. Several games I had V.Ex without a way to trigger him.
3. Removal for large creatures is needed. I ran 0 copies of PtE (I have a Miracles / Combo meta, then faced Sneak Show). In this meta it feels like Lilliana is better.
4. I ran too many cards that cost >3 mana. This is a inefficiency, even for Legacy and this deck.
5. Against decks with RIP, et al. subbing Veteran Explorer for DRS in SB games is not going to help accelerate. This seems like a design misstep.
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After seeing this list, and how I've not been happy with the strictly beatdown plan on Junk Fit, I have been exploring Scapefit, and I like it
quite a bit, as having a better game against Miracles through the inevitability of huge damage from Valakut.
I changed the deck slightly to incorporate Tireless Tracker, as it has insane synergy with the deck. I am wondering what you guys think of
Courser in Scapefit. I've never seen it in this deck, and while I know it's debatable in Junk lists, the smoothing of top decks in this deck
is really important.
Deck (61)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging ooze
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
1 Stomping Ground
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Sideboard (15)
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Damnation
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scapeshift
3 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
I've been there with Veteran, so I know what you speak of. Sometimes I've found myself contemplating using spot removal on my own vet but that's such a shitty circumstance. Could Intent or Sidisi alleviate the issue?
As for Liliana of the Veil, I REALLY like her in certain metas. If we're all discussing planeswalkers, she's my #1. The only downside to her is BB not being a priority for my list (and I fully acknowledge that's easy to fix).
Against RIP, you could use Carpet of Flowers (assuming UWx is nuking the grave) or Sakura (regardless of the opposition). Sakura is the shit. He also alleviates your concern within #4.
I hear you on V Explorer. I've been running an extra tower and amongst this conversation about planeswalkers have been interested in those that interact well/provide another sac outlet like Garruk VC. I'm not sold on
on intent or Sidisi especially and am unsure of other productive ways to bring in more sac outlets. Perhaps we should slam natural order+worldspine wurm /s
Intent could work, but high variance still. Sidisi is >3 mana, so beyond the limiting factor. Would rather just cast Rhino at that mana point.
Lilliana is nice in being both 3 mana, and flexible enough to ramp excess V.Explorers. Also provides a safety net against Show & Tell style monsters.
Finally, Carpet is fine vs Blue (which we already invest heavily with bombs) but does nothing against Death & Taxes, which was my case on Tuesday. Rock < me < hard place.
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Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
I will be testing safekeeper, but isn't he better as a sideboard card? I find it useful only against stp decks (miracles pretty much) and combo (but in G2-3, not 1).
Against bolt/pfire decks, except maybe burn, we should value our land drops more right? Because of mana denial.
Even in a meta like the online one where miracles is like 18.5 of the entire metagame, I think safekeeper is a risky choice for the main deck. Thoughts?
E: ok, it seems ridiculous to say the he is not good against bolt, but I meant that bolt usually means wasteland thus I don't necessarily want to blow my lands up.
I don't think he's a risky choice, so to speak. He also dodges Jace bouncing (Jace is in decks like Shardless and Control BUG, which are doing well) and other stuff. I don't think the downside is that bad.
The card I miss most is Intent, since it's SOO good when it's good, but it's also dirt when it gets countered. Oh well.
Yea..maybe it can be good against shardless for that reason..I'll try it
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