I try to jam him in every deck with GSZ. In Maverick, he's insane and no one plays him. Sigh.
If we are talking about underrated low drops / Sideboard material, I want to mention Spirit of the Labyrinth. He stops the entire Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe engine and puts a nice clock on Combo decks. Also, he is amazing against Ancestral Vision. And if he lives, he stops Jace TMS. Downside is of course he dies to removal, especially Terminus.
I am back. Felt like i needed a break since i started a tiff but we all good now. i love this thread, this deck and all yous guys/gals.
FRIENDLY REMINDER OF THIS DECK: 1-0 IN A LEAGUE
http://i.imgur.com/QuhVyLV.png
will post decklist http://i.imgur.com/c3LBu2L.png
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
I love you too buddy. Keep up the good work! @others: Yes, Ricardio and I are Rhino Buddies again. We talked it out like the couple of real adults we pretend to be and it's all rainbows and Rhinos again. All I missed was a beer or two, but that part of the internet still has to be invented.Originally Posted by Ricardio
@Koby: What list did you run? It might give us some more insight on your experiences. On sac outlets - Phyrexian Tower no. 2 is the easiest (and cheapest) one to add, if your manabase can handle it. Otherwise I'm also quick to resort to Diabolic Intent. I'm known to run 2.
Interesting..why dp you think STE is necessary?
And the deck seems pretty f'in hateful if you know what I mean; I imagine the standard Ricardio though process: "People be arguing that SG or abeyance is better than the other and vice verse? I'm going to play both lol".
Very interesting ill try both myself. I have never liked spirit of the l tho, I will replace them with grips to be more hateful and because i hate when the one that gets to durdle with top is the opponent.
E: if you want to have a laugh go read one of my last posts in this thread
On that it's fine for a 5-drop to be answered by a 1 CMC card, ignoring that the smart man plays said 1 CMC card when the 5-drops' ETB trigger is on the stack? Yeah, that is pretty funny. No 5/3 tokens for you, mister. Enjoy your 5 mana fetchland.E: if you want to have a laugh go read one of my last posts in this thread
The alternative is that that 5 mana'd been spent on a Sigarda and the smart man'd be a sad man with a Bolt in his hand. That's the slot it's occupying, so that is what it'd be had you chosen to run the other card.
Hahahaha still the shade on Titania? I thought we had adequately hashed out that it's a SB card that would be pulled out in creature intensive MUs lacking bolts/StP like Eldrazi and which is probably a meta call anyway. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hey, rubble said he had something laughable for me to look at. It's not my fault it turned out to be that. Seemed like a cry for attention to me, so I indulged.
Wait, what? Did I ever talk about Titania? My edit was written for Ricardio, and I was referring to the pictures I posted the other day..sometimes I don't even understand if you are baiting drama or something
Lol then just point directly towards the pictures man (and direct your post @a specific person instead of starting with E:. Or just type out Edit:, lol).Wait, what? Did I ever talk about Titania? My edit was written for Ricardio, and I was referring to the pictures I posted the other day..sometimes I don't even understand if you are baiting drama or something
@Bobmans: I did some rework on your datasheet. I've included a 6 CMC and ramp bracket and got the calculation sheet to work with weighted bools (i.e. cards that we like to count as 0.5 for a certain slot). I also added in a sheet with some hypergeometric distribution for easy reference. It scales with the total number of cards in the deck and runs from 6 to 27 land (or whatever category). This means we're able to quickly determine what happens if we move from say 8 library manipulation slots to 7 etc. I built in a compare function, where you can submit what number you are on currently and what number you want to go to, after which it shows you the difference between the two (i.e. now I run 21 lands but I'm thinking of going up to 22 or the other way around). I also added in some evaluation logic for the manabase. As long as you have >= 14 initial manasources for a given colour, that slot colours green. 12 or 13 colours it orange, anything below 12 turns it red. It also tells you if your current manabase is stable or not. All green and 21+ lands = stable, any red or total land count under 21 = unstable, everything in between is risky. Oh, and I added in a graph to visualize the manacurve.
I also have a random hand generator I built a couple of years ago I can throw in there, if anyone'd want it.
Last edited by Echelon; 04-29-2016 at 05:37 AM.
I was talking to him after all. And what was that comment about Titania? Am I missing a joke or what?
Being on mobile aggravates my laziness and thus my reluctance to write anything more than what is strictly necessary.
Ignore the Titania bit, it has been discussed enough and is probably the product of another mobile mishap. Let's just move on.
Did you place it somewhere online or is it accessible?
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Not yet. I'll get back to you on that.
Edit: Just let me know where to e-mail this thing. Whoever is interested, just send me a PM with your e-mail address.
Last edited by Echelon; 04-29-2016 at 08:54 AM.
All this ramp and update math has me thinking and thus far STE has been good so he will stay.Interesting..why dp you think STE is necessary?
And the deck seems pretty f'in hateful if you know what I mean; I imagine the standard Ricardio though process: "People be arguing that SG or abeyance is better than the other and vice verse? I'm going to play both lol".
Very interesting ill try both myself. I have never liked spirit of the l tho, I will replace them with grips to be more hateful and because i hate when the one that gets to durdle with top is the opponent.
E: if you want to have a laugh go read one of my last posts in this thread
HAHA its as if you know me or something ^_^
I saw someone earlier suggest SotL and I thought his/her points were very valid so I actually did cut 2 krosan grip for them.
HAHA yes I saw those and what a skillful photographic humorist you are!
I agree with echelon that titania is more along the lines of a pet card and isn't the correct choice for rhino fit. I do believe a maverick shell with her, kotr and safekeeper can be super synergized but this isn't that thread.
To echo echelon, Sigarda is OUR 5 drop like Rhino is our 4 drop. Until Wotc gets drunk and prints out something better, we are good with those.
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
@Ricardio: I'm reading into your last comment a bit, "To echo echelon, Sigarda is OUR 5 drop like Rhino is our 4 drop. Until Wotc gets drunk and prints out something better, we are good with those."
For Rhino-Fit, Rhino appears to be the correct 4 drop. He definitely runs through a large % of the competitive meta. But I don't think Rhino-Fit is the only competitive configuration for Junk (not to put words in your mouth, but I'm getting a sense you implied this). I wouldn't be so quick to write off other variations of NicFit or other 4 drops. I still see value in Thrun, who most of us friend-zoned or some of the 4 drop walkers (walker-fit).
EDIT: Meren is also a quality 4 drop IMHO.
Rhino: Etb trigger, trample, 4/5 4 cmc green creature
Sigarda: flying, hexproof, 5/5 5 cmc green creature legendary(sadface)
I understand what you mean. I do not think rhino fit is the only junk fit configuration but it is the one I have been and will be testing. I know there is an sfm build Jain has put many hours into and there are likely others that don't fit(lol) the previous two descriptions. I hope we can find the best and work on it.
Thrun is good in many matchups and Meren is basically a one of staple now, for me at least. I just know that when I gsz, its probably for rhino. The only time im sad to draw a rhino is when I need land or an answer, otherwise he is absurd. Rhino does what I need and its consistent, what more can you ask for? Thrun is a one of and I think much better in the jund build with kwr. I usually play a thrun and a garruk relentless in my board but garruk got much better now that he doesn't die to decay(when hes flipped).
I am a 4 rhino, 1 meren, 1 sigarda now the other 46 cards(4 therapy, 4 vet. KEEP UP, PEOPLE) can be figured out kind of junk pilot right now.
EDIT: I fear everyone is quick to take my comments negatively or feel they should take offense but I don't want to convey that. I am proud of what we do here and I am even more proud of how we treat one another. The beauty of Nic Fit is that we can configure and test most anything into it and when something is suggested we don't immediately tell that person they are wrong and how stupid they are for suggesting it. The work everyone does on the archetype does not lose importance based on specifics. Scapewish is a real nic fit deck and some people like it and may even love it. They are working on that and cross referencing opinions with others in this thread. I believe the punishing jund fit is very strong as well as sfm junk fit but they aren't my playstyle so I work on rhino fit. I don't want to stifle any progress. Nic Fit needs zealous people willing to put in the time for the version they love. I think we need to stop feeling like we are arguing against other versions and start discussing for them. this thread is to better the deck, not tell others why theirs is wrong.
MTGO: Ricardio
Nic Fit: legacy's magical EDH deck
I came here to party and resolve prime time triggers.
"Well, I ain't calling you a truther." -Josh
IMGUR:http://ricardio69.imgur.com/all/
I've been in a brewing mood this morning, so I threw on some DarkSouls 3 soundtrack and went to work. I have four lists that I will present below:
[Experimental] Natural Attack
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Worldspine Wurm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
3 Painful Truths
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sneak Attack
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
I've had this brewing on the back burner for a while. I don't have the ability to test it, sadly, as I don't own a lot of the cards that it uses. I think it needs room for spot removal, but as-conceptualized its plan is to just go harder than its opponent, with enough card advantage to draw into enablers, get Atarka and wipe the board to stabilize. Vs slower decks you can savage them with Primus or Wurm. This deck was basically sparked by trying to think how we can abuse Meren more. Sneak Attack seems like a pretty natural fit for Meren, and at the point at which you're running things like Atarka, Wurm, and Primus (and Primeval because 4 lands, two of which are the Two Towers), Natural Order begins to make a lot of sense too. It's possible that the deck should focus on just Sneak Attack and drop the NO plan, but I'm unsure. As I said, I can't really test this version very well, but my spider senses are tingling. I think there's something there if somebody wants to take charge and put some work in on it.
Speaking of spider senses, you may notice an innocuous little 2-drop that will be making further appearances in my other lists: Deadly Recluse. I believe this is the answer that I was looking for initially in Glissa. The problem with Glissa was that she didn't do enough work vs non-Eldrazi. I still wanted a Zenithable creature with Reach, so I did some gatherer digging, and I found this little guy. More of the other various spiders have a host of problems, mostly that they either cost too much (Ancient Spider) or that they just don't do enough (1/3s, which lose to Delver), etc. Deadly Recluse will 1-for-1 a Delver while also stonewalling Thought-Knot Seers and Tarmogoyfs. The card basically demands that a removal spell be spent on clearing it out of the way (which we can then Meren it back easily, as its a 2-drop). Spiderbro is also very cheap -- it's reasonable to Zenith it into play on turn 2 after Vet/Therapy shenanigans, and it will almost certainly come down before that Delver kills you. We -could- just run another removal spell, yes, but as we've discussed -- there is a lot of merit in utilizing Zenith better, and it's not hard to look on spiderbro as a Zenithable removal spell. It's not QUITE that good, obviously, as they still have the creature -- but until the day WotC grants our wishes and gives us a cheap BG shriekmaw, I think he's the best we've got.
One strength of red lists at the moment is that they get to run Slaughter Games for free, without destabilizing their manabase, and they get REB. It's possible that the sideboard as sketched above should be higher on REBs, actually -- the card is great against all of the top tier contenders except for Lands and Eldrazi at the moment, and it's great vs many of the expected decks that we should plan to face throughout our Grand Prix experiences (Delver, Miracles, Shardless). It's even good against Painter and Sneak/Show. The trick is that the red lists have historically had problems killing people, especially Punishing, which is otherwise a very stable deck.
Anyway, moving on:
[Updated] The Ceaseless Distortion
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
2 Ancient Stirrings
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
1 Karakas
sb::
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Obstinate Baloth
I've had to take a long, hard look at this deck and what it's trying to do. I like a lot of the concepts in it -- Thought-Knot Seer is probably the best card in this deck, ala Siege Rhino. Beating combo game 1 because you tear their hand apart with Therapy and Thought-Knots feels amazing. I've tried this deck on every end of the scale -- I've gone basically full 12post (you never go full 12post) all the way up to Emrakul, and I've gone as low as 1 Primeval and 1 Cloudpost. I think that this size, as above, is where I want to be with it.
Kozilek 2.0 and Ulamog 2.0 are the payoffs for this deck, as well as Ugin. Those three cards are why you want to run this version at the top-end, basically. You don't need more than 2 Cloudposts to achieve those levels of mana -- you're running all of the Glimmers anyway because they're a great colorless source for Thought-Knot and Kozilek, and they fill the lifegain role very nicely (in addition to making Primeval a functional Thragtusk when you need him to be). More than 2 Cloudposts starts running into mana problems, both in terms of things coming into play tapped too often, and in terms of too much colorless mana.
A further problem that this deck had was the lack of a draw engine outside of Kozilek. As per my recent assertion that Miracles is not effectively beatable without Slaughter Games, I decided to add that package to this deck. That allows for Painful Truths to be a viable card for this deck, especially with the Wood Elves->Taiga. The innovation of Tireless Tracker also helps quite a bit.
This version likely has the best Miracles matchup out of any version, to the point of it likely approaching 70-80% win rate, but it comes at the cost of losing ground against Delver. It can go up to the full set of Decays, as well as 3 Deed + Deluge, and Obstinate Baloths with Glimmerposts to recoup life, but I'm still a lot more uneasy vs Delver with this particular list.
[Updated] Thune
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
2 Spike Feeder
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Painful Truths
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Pithing Needle
3 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip
[Updated] Rhinos
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Painful Truths
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Pithing Needle
3 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip
Both of these lists are very similar, with the only real difference coming in the creature package, so I'll lump them together.
The cost of adding the Spike/Thune combo is exactly 1 more maindeck Path to Exile. With the addition of spiderbro, Thune now has 16 interaction slots maindeck, while Rhino gets an extra Path and has 17. The benefits of Spike/Thune is that you have a combo finish, and Painful Truths is a bit less painful due to the presence of the Spikes, which can block + gain 4 against pressure. You also have extra lifelinking flying bodies, which have been the best way to close out games in my experience.
On the other hand, Rhino is a little more aggressive because it's a bit lower to the ground, and it bolts the opponent when it comes down. Rhino being Zenithable also helps pressure the opponent a bit more, whereas you have to just draw your angels. Rhino vs Thune (the cards, not the decks) is actually a very interesting comparison: they both functionally cost 5 (rhino off of Zenith, plus its tricolor cost sometimes delays it a turn vs wastelands). They both have functional evasion, as one tramples and the other flies; they both gain life, one immediately and the other on swing; and they both offer additional functionality, one through growing the team and having a combo, and the other through Meren/Nightmare/blink bullshittery.
Side note on that topic: we should probably look into Restoration Angel more than we have. Those who are looking to lower the curve and stop at Sigarda might be especially interested in Resto, since those lists are trying to be more aggressive, and flickering a Rhino (in general, let alone if you can do it in response to a Swords to Plowshares) is going to kill somebody very, very quickly.
So yeah. That's where my mind has been for the last couple days.
I don't get some of the arguments against my favorite smith.
I can get the "I've tried her and she doesn't nic fit my play style" but "she needs mana" , yeah that's the point : a threat that we can play when we don't get to explorer mana but get better if the mana flows.
Also "dies to your own deed" , I can get behind but not if the people are advocating a 3 or 4 DRS build.
Against miracle, yes removal in response to equip is where tempo goes to die, fortunately the match is going to go long, and the fact that they need to remove every critter we play put the pressure on their removal (think how kessig wolf run plays out in punishing fit).
On the other hand I recognize that she is slower than rhino and doesn't have the combo finish of thune.
I've tried playing rhino alongside but hadn't enough slots.
Side note : about a planeswalker to fight jace, doesn't elspeth n1 fit the bill ?
Both Elspeths, Garruks, and Sorin do, yes.
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