This is the most important part of this statement.
I've been running Truths in Jund (like, regular Jund). It's really good. If you think I'm retarded because cascading into Truths is garbage, I'm testing sans-BBE.
Also good in Esperblade/Deathblade. But that's just my two cents.
-Matt
Painful Truths... Seems the consensus is if you have it in your list then you run no more than 2 of them? I'm just getting my Junk Nic Fit deck back together again. Wanted to give it a try with Meren and/or Dromoka in the 60.
Another card that I haven't seen mentioned in this threat that may have potential is Dromoka's Command. Trying to think up some shenanigans for this card in Legacy but I don't know how far it would go. Seems to be a pretty solid card in Modern, though.
I tried this at my first event with Junk Fit - it's too situational and the blowout potential doesn't make up for how dead it can sometimes be. My recommendation would be to take a pass and run another Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, or even a Golgari Charm. Lightning bolt is so much more prevalent in Modern.
For those on the painfull truths plan. Which traditionally bad match ups are improved. Obviously no turn one or zero decks are effected (belcher tin fins dredge allspells) but how does the card improve say lands turbo eldrazi or show and tell. Historically all other matches have been positive to very winable for me ive been happy with my miracles shardless and storm matches and am honeslty only sad to face the eldrazi lands and show and tell cluster.
No traditionally bad matchups are improved, because those matchups are generally so bad, 1-2 slots in the main won't make a difference. It's just about executing the main game plan better.
Realistically, this deck will almost never beat combo Game 1 unless your opponent dies at the table. That's what the board is for, here. The thing is, you want to make SURE you win those Game 1's against those Delver/midrange decks in the format so Game 2 is easy-peasy. I went 6-0 in three rounds on that strategy, and had more time left over at the end of rounds, etc. It makes a difference. More card draw is also never a bad thing, since you want to go like so against the counter-heavy decks: threat - counter. Threat? Counter/remove. Threat? Counter/remove. Painful truths, you're out of cards, I'm not.
If you don't think you need it, then feel free to pass on it. But again, when the stars align, this deck is great. Without card draw and manipulation, you're in for a bit of a rough time.
-Matt
I guess it comes down to philosophy. Fundamentally decks playing multiple truths and librarys alongside zenith and top are more akin to say shardless where as lists playing a more traditional role are more akin to miracles looking to just have more powerful spells on top their deck. Or maybe im just delirious?
Edit- I could try a single truths over a funeral charm but after that I dont think i have much more space to work with. Mentor is the next most cuttable card but I havent gotten a fair enough amount of testing in with him. The small stoneforge package has over performed for me i cant see me playing rhino without it. Care to weigh in on where you'd squeeze the second truths in? List is updated on 124.
Last edited by uncletiggy; 11-22-2015 at 12:10 PM.
The only cuts you truly have are a Rhino, Courser, or Intent, but those are all good cards too. I think the Funeral Charm should go.
-Matt
I'll try it over the f charm. I have a sick ninja love affair with the card but its the weakest and drawing three fresh ones could certainly yeild whatever mode i intended.
I'm still torn on Thragtusk over Rhino #4. Sure, Thragtusk is better vs. Miracles/StP.dec, but for that mana you might as well just get Sigarda in those MU's. In the other MU's, Rhino poses a bigger clock in its first and second swings and breaks even at the third swing (assuming no blocks have been made, yada yada). When trying to get an opponent down to 0 it would be safe to assume he'd be at 19 life due to fetch, so the lower yield on the 4th swing doesn't necessarily have to matter.
So basically when it comes to killing the opponent, Rhino does it just as quickly @1 mana cheaper/1 turn earlier. I'm mostly wondering if I'd really need Thragtusk's utility.
Any opinions?
Last edited by Echelon; 11-23-2015 at 03:48 AM.
Thank you for the report. How was your experience with the 3/3 Hymn/Liliana configuration? Didn't you feel StP/PtE missing in the main?
@ Echelon, Thragtusk is an important addition in basicly any non white NicFit lists due to its lifegain, beefy body and EtB trigger. But all is negated by Siege Rhino in the sense that. Siege's body is more usefull and survives more situations. The lifegain is less, but you run like 3 copies. On top of that, white has more sources of lifegain by nature. If your concern is Miracles, then a combat walker like Elspeth may be worth its slot more then Thragtusk (or the 4th Rhino). Personally i don't think that this deck needs 4 copies of the card anyway.
Regarding removal: Maelstrom Pulse is probably the goto flex removal on the MD rightnow. There is a boatload of tokens out there from Mentor, Pryrodude and offc Storm running more copies of EtW. Next to this, Gurmag Angler, Ugin, Jace and Batterkull also get answered by the card. It offers an answer ro many situations out there. As a sideboard option i'd probably run a Council's Judgment (over Krosan Grip or Vindicate) since it can answer scary shit like Emrakul, Ugin (again), Blighsteel Colossus or even Marit Lage.
The real concern i have is finding a solid answer to Elves!. Both Engineered Plague and NotSB have been named, but it is so easily answered by their RecSage. Between Golgari Charm, PDeed and tight play with Gaddock Teeg and Jitte/spot removal i cant think of anything else.
Currently i am working on a Junk list, because it has a better game against MUD, combo (hatebears), lands (PtE) and against creatures that have toughness > 2 and cmc > 3. But like Ralf said: finding the perfect 76 is very hard.
Meren is the new tech, but i must just put her in the list just to get feeling with how she plays out in NicFit. Adjustement towards improving comes after real play.
Different options have been presented by various NicFit players and all have their merits. One thing is for sure for me: Sun Titan will be played as it pushes the NicFit list right on the edge of being awesome. Sun Titan solves the Elves problem aswell (just have to push games that far).
So the options are (in any combination):
SFM: Batterkull and Jitte. Like GTH mentioned, it forces players to respond more early on the game. Batterskull van take over entire games. Plus i like the idea of Jitte being able to perform recurring removal.
2 Baneslayer Angel. This is an alternative for the sfm package. It opens slots for other cards as opposed to sfm. I have never run Baneslayer before and just ordered some.
Not running Sensei's Divining Top, but instead going for exploiting Sun Titan/Rhino and running Sylvan Library, Painful Truth, Diabolic Intent, Recurring Nightmare. I dont think running sfm package is gonna work with this, so this opens the sideboard for Null Rod that helps against MUD.
Running more MD discard in the form of Thoughtseize/Hymn/Liliana? probably the only way to improve matchup/g1 against combo.
Slaughter Games, the reason for running Red splash. It will help against the current combo field and Miracles. But is it worth it? If we do, is a MD Huntmaster of the Fells optional? Or perhaps Kolaghan's Command. Thinking about these cards makes it hard not to just run Jund NicFit instead.
I figured something like that. So Thragtusk is out. Now it's just a matter of what to put in. My list is light on removal (courtesy of being used to having pretty much every legacy bomb out there available to me to solve all my problems), so the Pulse is probably a good idea. I'm not big on walkers with double colours in their manacosts (so that's most of them), partly b/c I like to fetch basics whenever possible. That kinda makes it hard to consistently pay for GG and WW in the earlier stages of a game. With GG being the more important bit, I try to alleviate other colour costs. Sigarda usually hits the board late or via GSZ, so at that point the WW in her manacost isn't that much of an issue anymore.
So it's either Rhino nr. 4 (I like fighting fire with fire. Or rhinoes.) or a Maelstrom Pulse. Most creatures aren't that much of a hassle due to PtE (nice Merit Lage token/Blightsteel Colossus you got there) and for tokens I run 3 Deeds (with 2 Golgari Charm in the SB), but other stuff may very well pose quite the problem (hello, Ugin/Jace).
Or maybe run a third Painful Truths. When playing goodstuff.dec (basically), how bad can drawing 3 cards be..?
Last edited by Echelon; 11-23-2015 at 07:47 AM.
Played Junk NicFit in a local 20+ tournament to a 4-0-2 finish (2nd place).
Matchups were:
1) RUG Delver; win 2-0; 1-0
2) Necrotic Ooze combo; win 2-1; 2-0
Never saw this deck before and it got me by surprise G1.. G2 I surgicaled entomb after a T1 discard (to prevent instant speed shananigans), G3 I killed a Ooze in play and then cast S.Games on Ooze
3) Burn; win 2-1; 3-0
G1 he got me with a T3 Sulfuric Vortex..
4) Mentor UWr Miracles; draw 1-1; 3-0-1
G1 I resolved Sigarda and killed his Jace, he killed me on the backswing with an EOT Entreat. G2 I cast S.Games on Jace and then on Entreat and traded resources until a resolved Mastery of the Unseen prompted a concession. Time was called before G3 started.
5) Deathblade; draw 1-1; 3-0-2
G1 I kept a one lander with double Therapy, GSZ, DRS and Top (on the draw). I didn't draw a land in the 1st and second draw step, which put me behind enough for him to resolve Jace, Lili and TNN. I should have scooped, but instead persisted until I finally succumbed with 18min left in the round. G2 was much smoother and I was right before time was called..
6) RUG Delver; win 2-1; 4-0-2
G1 was a nail biter.. He had Delver (unflipped for 2 turns) and Goose, then resolved a Goyf. I had a Top in play and played P.Deed (Forced), I chumped Goyf with Sakura-Tribe Elder and he deployed another Goyf. Cast M.Pulse on Goyf (Forced).. I was on 13 life. Fetched for Dryad arbor to chump and clear top and spun top.. found T.Deluge, draw, Deluge for 6.. resolved.
He played another Goyf, but luckily I drew A.Decay.
G2 Was again very close, but this time I died with him on 1 life (mostly self inflicted with Sylvan Library)
G3 Was not even close since my draw was quite good.
Decklist:
Kinda liked everything in the MD and sideboard and wouldn't change anything really.. I might try a Mastery of the Unseen in the MD (with Thragtusk being moved in the SB).Code:--- creatures [14] --- 3 Veteran Explorer 2 Deathrite Shaman 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder 1 Qasali Pridemage 1 Eternal Witness 1 Courser of Kruphix 3 Siege Rhino 1 Thragtusk 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons --- instants [5] --- 3 Abrupt Decay 2 Path to Exile --- sorceries [12] --- 4 Cabal Therapy 4 Green Sun's Zenith 2 Painful Truths 1 Toxic Deluge 1 Maelstrom Pulse --- artifacts [3] --- 3 Sensei's Divining Top --- enchantments [4] --- 3 Pernicious Deed 1 Sylvan Library --- lands [22] --- 4 Windswept Heath 3 Verdant Catacombs 1 Marsh Flats 2 Bayou 1 Savannah 1 Scrubland 1 Taiga 2 Forest 2 Swamp 2 Plains 1 Horizon Canopy 1 Phyrexian Tower 1 Dryad Arbor --- sideboard --- 4 Thoughtseize 3 Surgical Extraction 2 Slaughter Games 2 Mastery of the Unseen 2 Krosan Grip 1 Diabolic Edict 1 Choke
I'm putting us on the map.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...it-22623#paper
Haha nice work ricardio. Anything you would change about your list?
Still trying to get a feel for the Junk versions of this deck but it feels to me like you're playing a lot of lands that can't activate Shusher. Realistically Shusher needs quadruple green in a turn: 2 to cast, 1 to activate, then 1 for your threat. But a full third of your lands can't count towards that green count and you're probably tutoring up a lot of non green lands off of Explorer. Has this been a problem?
Initially I did not believe he was worth the spot or the 2 tix and I felt as you stated, he is very green intensive but I found him to be great when I had him. He won me 2 separate games, singlehandedly. I fetch out green more of the time and I wasn't put in any awkward situations because of him. Because of the online meta, he is a must answer threat which is what we want to fill out deck with. The threats I have an issue landing, that I want him for, are not the usual vet, Drs or top. It's gsz or rhino because my opponents usually let the others resolve in hopes their force will 2 for 1 a rhino.
Note: my deck is fairly meta'd for the online meta. You play 3-4 blue decks a daily. At some point, I may run carpet mainboard. Haha
@Ricardio, what's playing legacy on modo like? How often do events fire? Is it regular? I'm in the UK and worry that events won't fire when I'm interested. What's the EV like playing in events? Is it worth just playing legacy on there or do you do other formats too? I really wanna join you on the daily listings :)
I don't get the opportunity to play in tournaments at the moment and I'm not investing into magic online (yet), but I'm happy enough with all my current testing to present this list, as I'm pretty hyped on it right now. It just grinds and I haven't been losing with it, so I want to share for some opinion and interaction from you lot.
I've included scomments and questions on some cards.
Absun Zenith (Cute right?)
4 Greensun Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen finks
Wanted more life gain and another creature that worked well with being sacrificed. I wish such a two drop existed.
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
This gal is the real deal and gives you planeswalker-esque value while being Greensun zenithable. Love her.
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
I love rhino, but without equipment Thrun just blocks better and survives more. And we really don't need 4 rhinos to win the game when we can just play more interaction and card draw and then beat down with Sigarda.
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
The queen herself, wins all the games.
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
Makes sure we can always go over the top of the other fair decks. Fetches the two towers or the two stirring wildwoods for extra threats.
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Is 2 too few?
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Abrupt Decay
Cheap interaction and answer to counter balance. 3 too many?
2 Vindicate
Answer to planeswalkers and lands. 2 too many?
3 Permicious Deed
2 Abzan Charm
Answers delvers and 20/20s a like, draws cards against everything else.
3 Painful Truths
Fantastic spell especially turn two after saccing a vet, replaces sylvan library in my eyes, less life and doesn't die to deed. It's so refreshing always having a grip of cards in this deck.
22 lands + Dryad
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Stirring Wildwood
Extra white mana and threats, blocks delvers and doesn't die to bolt.
2 Phyexian Tower
Play 8 veteran explorers and 8 sac outlets, this card is so good I don't mind the chance of drawing both of them.
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
Combo and Lands hate
2 Pithing Needle
Combo, Lands and Miracles hate
2 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach
Additional hand disruption for combo
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Slow the game down against combo
1 Gaddock Teeg
Combo and Miracles hate
2 Golgari Charm
Creature hate
1 Reclamation Sage
Alluren hate :)
The deck is designed to grind and crush all the other fair decks, and then side in enough hate to up the odds against the various combo decks. It has all the necessary removal and then so much card advantage that you can keep up with ancestral visions and jaces while presenting enough threats against miracles and interfering enough against storm.
Thoughts? Anyone else on anything similar? I do miss rhino for the troll factor...
I've quite liked the Hymns and Lilianas. In general, they represent card advantage - it's certainly a matter of personal style, but I've seen a lot of lists that sacrifice card advantage for card quality. I try to have a little of both in my lists. The disruption is essential to having some game G1 against Combo or Miracles. Hymn is a great followup to turn one Therapy on the draw if you don't have an Explorer and it's back-breaking on turn two after you sac an Explorer to Therapy. Once you add in the Stoneforge package, you're looking at a threat (Liliana) that both makes your equipment better and can threaten to essentially win the game on her own in certain situations.
Two quick notes for those evaluating the stoneforge mystic route: I haven't figured out which Sword I like best; Light and Shadow is amazing vs. Miracles but lackluster elsewhere; I'm going to try Fire and Ice next chance I get (probably next Monday). I'd also consider War and Peace to close the game quickly vs. Miracles and Lands. Also, I tend to search out Jitte before Batterskull unless I feel I'm the aggro in the matchup. An active Jitte on a Rhino is pretty unstoppable vs. fair decks.
OK, last thing. You always have the option to side out the entire equipment package game two. I do that pretty often; you bring in Thrun, Sigarda, your Titan of Choice, and maybe a planeswalker or some more removal while they bring in Decays.
Hmm, I'm at 21 lands + Dryad. But I'm a greedy bastard. Has worked out fine for me so far though. My manabase is:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
And 1 Dryad Arbor as land 22/Llanowar Elves/Diabolic Intent food/chump blocker. That little guy leads a busy life.
This setup gives you 15/14/14 initial green/black/white manasources. Which is where you want to be when it comes to consistency (14 really is a minimum for any colour if you reliably want access to it on your first turn).
I've been toying with the idea of replacing a Forest with another land. Either Volrath's Stronghold or a High Market. Makes spot removal a little bit more unappealing for your opponent and plays well with Meren (and, to some extent, Painful Truths). Even though we play goodstuff.dec, it's always nice to build in some synergy. And when using life as a resource it's never bad to be able to actually make it. In the past I've used Miren, the Moaning Well but that one's just too mana hungry. Four untapped lands is a bit too much for my taste.
Overall, good list.
You could also consider Strangleroot Geist as 2 CMC drop which is asking to die...
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