[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Bobmans]

Coming weekend i'm bringing the next 76 to a tournament:


3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Slaughter Games


After 2 weeks of tweaking this is what i am feeling most confidant with. 2 major considerations: the SFM package in favor of more of basicly everything (and additional Rhino's). I think that SFM adds some amount of pressure on the early/mid-game. Plus that both Batterskull and Jitte can take over games. Rhino is nice and all, but still i find it is lacking a form of control (or flexibility) and at times it is to 'dumb'. Second it the addition of Taiga and 3 Slaughter Games. The more i think of it, the more i like it and now it is time to actually try it in the field. Decks where i would bring it in do not run Wasteland so that's a big plus (i look at you Miracles/SneakShow/Storm/HighTide). Minor point of attention, i still haven't tried Painful Truths, but my gut feeling tells me that SDT is basicly doing the same. How lucky are you when you find more then one useful card in the top 3 cards anyway. So picking the single best of three each turn seems better then just draw 3 for once.
Thoughts?

[Ralf]

Thoughts?

SFM package + Meren is asking for playing a Dryad somewhere.
As you are playing a karakas, include a Knight instead of Courser. Doubling up your chances against huge demon G1 is far superior to playing another grindy beast in a deck already designed to grind.

Path to exile, really?
Come on guys, 1 CMC removal are generally for 1 CMC creature.
Hitting Delver / Tarmo will happen but I cannot see giving some life to an opponent being a major issue, here.
Unless you are telling me you play Nic Fit to race your opponent...Hmpf.

I get to see the explorer has died at least once, and my opponent has no more basics to fetch.
But what if you open a hand with PTE and no explorer and your midrange opponent played a T1 DRS/MoR...?
Well, go give a clear advantage at the very stage where Nic Fit shines above all deck: the early game !

Let's face it, the drawback of such situation outweights heavily the fun factor of a late drawn PTE.
And I'm not mentioning the case where you save your butt by swording your own creature.
(And please don't bring "pathing your own creature" to the table)

No offense intended, but if you want to jam PTE, let's talk about Zoo/Big Zoo instead and I have a pretty brew to share (or a more Midrangy deck such as ROCK).

The rest is cool. You should have fun.

[uncletiggy]

I strongly recommend replacing one stoneforge with a sofi and playing the arbor.

[sdematt]

Arbor is useful, for sure. I'd definitely run it. As for Path, it's better than you think, and it's more relevant the more you are in on the Rhino plan.

-Matt

[Ricardio]

Arbor is useful, for sure. I'd definitely run it. As for Path, it's better than you think, and it's more relevant the more you are in on the Rhino plan.

-Matt

I agree with Matt. Path makes goyfs disappear into thin air. As for other things, yes a basic is the replacement but often times that land wont brake the game hard enough like negating 2 rhino triggers.

[Bobmans]

SFM package + Meren is asking for playing a Dryad somewhere.
As you are playing a karakas, include a Knight instead of Courser. Doubling up your chances against huge demon G1 is far superior to playing another grindy beast in a deck already designed to grind.

Path to exile, really?

The rest is cool. You should have fun.

Arbor + KotR seem a real solid consideration. It provides a solid angle over Courser indeed. Plus Arbor is free to keep flipping onto the board with Meren (and saccing it to KotR).

PtE flips Marit Lage, Griselbrand, Blightsteel Colossus, etc like hamburgers. For me THAT is the reason not to grab Punishing Fire.dec instead. White offers a great splash package, but the reason i am picking Junk is purely a meta call, where i feel that white has the best (less worst) MU vs MUD/Lands/Elves/Storm while still playing NicFit. PtE is a better call vs Lands and MUD. As for the other arguments, both teams are true. It is very situational to say StP is better then PtE or the other way around and we'd never gonna agree which beats which. The only deck i'd really hate to play PtE would be Miracles.

SoFaI is a good one. The only real critisism i would have is: space. The single most difficult thing in constructing a NicFit deck is fitting everything you want into it and having a balanced out spread of nr's...

[Echelon]

Arbor does a lot of work. It turns your GSZ's into Llanowar Elves, should you need it T1, it can be fetched to chump something for a turn and you can fetch it EoT as an instant platform for equipment.

I wouldn't be too bothered with the utility it has with Meren though. That's mostly just icing on the cake. Though, in my opinion, Dryad Arbor just screams for Diabolic Intent. But I have an incredible weak spot for that card.

[Bobmans]

Though, in my opinion, Dryad Arbor just screams for Diabolic Intent. But I have an incredible weak spot for that card.

Originally i planned to run a larger and different set of library manipulation. Intent being one of them. The card is great, but the consensus was that SFM required 5 slots and the current removal package is the bare minimum imho.
Your pointers on Arbor are solid, baring your experience with it in Elves. The thing i am conserned is where to put the Arbor? Replace the 3rd Forest? Or replace the SG pavkage (taiga)..?

[Echelon]

Originally i planned to run a larger and different set of library manipulation. Intent being one of them. The card is great, but the consensus was that SFM required 5 slots and the current removal package is the bare minimum imho.
Your pointers on Arbor are solid, baring your experience with it in Elves. The thing i am conserned is where to put the Arbor? Replace the 3rd Forest? Or replace the SG pavkage (taiga)..?

Also a great chunk of experience in Timmy Nic Fit . It shone most there, to be honest.

Well, I've never been to big on 4 mana answers to combo.dec, so I'm biased. You could try swapping those with 2 Mindbreak Traps (again, I'm coming from a list where fetch, Arbor, Diabolic Intent for Mindbreak Trap actually was a thing. I'm silly like that.) and another Golgari Charm.

On the other hand, if you don't expect to need more then 6 (basic) lands through the course of a game, you could always swap the Forest for an Arbor. You know your list better then I do, so trust your own judgment .

[Dadadot]

I truly hate dryad arbor. He is THE destroyer of opening hands. And then he goes of to die to some removal (which is one of the few upsides to him: bating removal) and ultimately cripple your game plan. Also he forces me into bad or uneasy decisions with deed (i want my deeds to be as clean as possible). But that's just like my opinion.
Kotr is just another beater which could (theoretically) fetch you after one turn a answer to f/e a grizzlebrand. But isn't it too slow in most cases? Maybe if you put him on the board with show and tell. Also we do run very few utility lands and are generally more midrange focused while i feel like kotr is more of an aggro creature. Considering knight's utility aspect doesn't really work all too well for us and his spot as a beater is filled with better options in nicfit while his aggro aspect doesn't really go all too well with our gameplan I wouldn't put him into my 75. I would like to hear strong arguments or "package ideas" for knight because I like really like him and i would love to play him in my deck.
My 2c on pte:
I put two exile effects in my mainboard mainly because of dark depths combos and other fatties and my first choice was obviously stp and then tried out pte. I quickly learned that most of the times i didn't mind my opponent fetching a basic as much as him getting up to 20 life while my win condition is beatdown/drain. Also D&t f.e. uses stp as a spot removal for small creatures to starve out the opponent so life is not the issue there.

[Echelon]

I truly hate dryad arbor. He is THE destroyer of opening hands. And then he goes of to die to some removal (which is one of the few upsides to him: bating removal) and ultimately cripple your game plan. Also he forces me into bad or uneasy decisions with deed (i want my deeds to be as clean as possible). But that's just like my opinion.

You're doing it wrong, lol. You shouldn't give a shit about Arbor when blowing up a Deed. Or not fetch Arbor until after you blow up deed.

Also, baiting removal equals crippling your game plan..?

[Dadadot]

No, I didn't mean that.
More like, you got an arbor+fetch start and the rest of the hand is reasonable. You play arbor t1 to be able to play sth t3 and your opponent wastes arbor. Maybe it's wrong to keep the hand in the first place but sometimes you are forced to do this after f.e. taking a mulligan.
A turn 1 gsz into arbor can be nice, but at best this is a turn 2 cmc4 (with phyrexian tower) or cmc3 in most cases which isn't all that great compared to the power of a gsz>cmc0.
And i feel like in a format where we are at best tier2 (this may be wrong) you can't afford to hinder yourself with low payoff plays.
Also deed along cabal therapy are the cards which make the deck legacy viable in the first place so they should be as strong as possible. maybe i will learn in time to take the right mulligans and play around the nombos in my deck but for now i feel like leaving them out as much as possible.

Edit:
The idea to combine arbor with meren and kotr is nice but maybe just g1. I tend to board out the graveyard reliant strategies of my deck (apart from witness) for more specified answers against decks which will board graveyard hate. which makes some of their cards dead and my deck stronger. but that's just me.

[Echelon]

More like, you got an arbor+fetch start and the rest of the hand is reasonable. You play arbor t1 to be able to play sth t3 and your opponent wastes arbor. Maybe it's wrong to keep the hand in the first place but sometimes you are forced to do this after f.e. taking a mulligan.

That fully depends on the MU and the rest of your hand. It might be wiser to fetch first (when being on the play and facing Stifle.dec, for instance) rather than start out with Arbor. You also always have the chance of drawing into a second land on your 2nd turn (or when you're on the draw), allowing you to keep Arbor in your hand until it's less of a speedbump for you.

[Ralf]

I would like to hear strong arguments or "package ideas" for knight because I like really like him and i would love to play him in my deck.

Don't extract things out of their context.

Dryad Arbor

a) Dryad arbor is nonbo with Deed.
b) Having DA in your starting hand sucks.

These are 2 facts, but I would consider the following (in this very order):
- Playing dryad with SFM package is very nice. You basically transform any fetch in a potential threat at EOT (and if you succeed to equip it + attack on your turn = bingo). This is a nightmare for Control decks.
- T1 -> GSZ into arbor can be a very strong play.
- Answering any "sacrifice a creature" effect by fetching into Dryad is a blowout.
- Turning "on" a cabal therapy by fetching into dryad arbor can be a matter of life or death against combo decks
- The turn you play Meren means that if arbor is in your yard, EOT of turn, Arbor is "in play" without having the need for any experience counter.

KoTR

I am suggesting to replace Courser by KoTR.
Don't get me wrong.

Sidenote

The trend (my trend) is playing more like a midrange deck while playing with an Abzan Fit version.

I like this approach. I've been a ferocious proponent to basically lower every Nic Fit version's mana curve since ages while keeping a good chunk of what makes Nic Fit so special.

Let's face it. The fact is the archetype struggles. Period.

We (Nic Fit community and I) have made a couple of top 8 since last 2 years but nothing really outstanding.
I have been playing every version of Nic Fit to some astonished results and to some others, really poor.

So now, what can we do to push our archetype further ?

Here is a brief sum up of my achievements:

- Scapeshift: Semi final.
- Jund PF Fit: Top 8
- Rea BUG Fit: Semi Final
- Abzan Pod Fit: Won a tournament
- Walker Fit (before Mc Darby special): Top 8
- BUG Fit (control with a few PW): Top 8

So where am I ?
- I usually crush Tempo
- I lose to combo
- 50/50 against control

What am I proposing ?
- lower a bit our already very good % win rate against tempo.
- Trying to find a way to reach 50/50 against combo.
- Finding an edge to beat the 50/50 control MU.

That might be gross, but you get the idea.

How to ?

I think we are, in a wide spread fashion, getting cute.
Jamming Bomb is nice. But bombs are usually not very legacy playable.
To jam bombs, we need to ramp.
To ramp we need explorer triggers.

Etc...

Actually I think we are "weak" in the early stage of any games save the veteran + therapy start.
I want more starts that give us another way to compete with other legacy decks.

End of Sidenote

I have suggested KoTR in a previous post.
Playing a GSZ package should not prevent us from playing a cheap "beater".
Why ?
Just because in a few MU, going for big fatties does not matter, at all:
- Either because you won't have time to resolve a Titan (for example)
- Or because any cheap & strong threat can do the job quicker without asking for stars to be aligned (read 5+ mana in play...)

True fact is that we are already cutting most of our bombs G2 & G3, against some MU.

Hence, having access to a cheap beater (as a 1-of) makes a lot of sense. One that you won't cut postboard.

From my point of view the said beater must be a CMC 2 or 3 max and GSZable.

- Tarmo is certainly the best vanilla beater. But do we really have the tool to make him a 4/5 on turn 3 ?
- Strangleroot is another one with more synergy with Nic Fit's core than Tarmo. But GG is pushing hard in fair MU.
- KoTR is the last one. 3 CMC might be a lot but it has at least some synergy with some Nic Fit version and can be good when you have access to some utility lands (Phyrexian, Karakas, Stronghold, Dryad Arbor). KoTR is actually never bad in any MU and doesn't push hard your mana base. At last, KoTR dodges the blowing deed @ 2.

Looking at Bobmans' list:
- He plays Karakas. S&T/Marit is a bad MU for Nic Fit. Having KoTR + Karakas might just be enough to steal a game. In a tournament, this means a lot of things, because with your discard + KotR + Karakas + PTE/STP (in a lesser extend), you have access to 6/8 tools MD to slow down your S&T/Marit opponent. If you steal G1 because of it, you are very likely to win the whole match.

- He plays Phyrexian Tower. KoTR can fetch phyrexian tower for a very quick accel and it is another broken combo with Veteran & Meren's looping ability.

So these are the sole reasons why I am suggesting KoTR.

Cheers,

Ralf.


Edit:

I don't understand why Liliana is absent from any builds (save mines) I am looking at.
Guys, the whole meta has changed.
Looking at the "decks to beat", she is a powerhouse against 80% + of them.

My 2cents.

[Whitefaces]

Nice post, very well explained and thought out. I agree with pretty much everything, especially the point of getting too cute. I'm completely guilty of it. I won't lie, I mostly play Nic Fit at my LGS just for fun with no aspirations of playing it at GPs, so jam lots of titans and 6+ cmc bombs etc.

I toyed with a junk build with SFMs, the full set of DRS and just a singleton Explorer to GSZ for (I'm sure you guys have tried this configuration too) just after Siege Rhino came out, topping out at a Sigarda. It felt quite competitive in the sense that it had a fantastic game against tempo and the equipment was a nightmare for control. Perhaps it was more akin to the rock than Nic Fit, but it's something to try again I think.

[Ralf]

Nice post, very well explained and thought out. I agree with pretty much everything, especially the point of getting too cute. I'm completely guilty of it. I won't lie, I mostly play Nic Fit at my LGS just for fun with no aspirations of playing it at GPs, so jam lots of titans and 6+ cmc bombs etc.

Thank you, sir.

We all have started playing Nic Fit for the fun factor.
But I am belonging to the Nic Fit category that "still" brings it to huge tournaments, hoping to be blessed by the Gods.

Except for last GP in Lille where I played Imperial Taxes during the main event and a MBC brew of my own.

But I shall not repeat that mistake !

[rubblekill]

Don't extract things out of their context.

Dryad Arbor

a) Dryad arbor is nonbo with Deed.
b) Having DA in your starting hand sucks.

These are 2 facts, but I would consider the following (in this very order):
- Playing dryad with SFM package is very nice. You basically transform any fetch in a potential threat at EOT (and if you succeed to equip it + attack on your turn = bingo). This is a nightmare for Control decks.
- T1 -> GSZ into arbor can be a very strong play.
- Answering any "sacrifice a creature" effect by fetching into Dryad is a blowout.
- Turning "on" a cabal therapy by fetching into dryad arbor can be a matter of life or death against combo decks
- The turn you play Meren means that if arbor is in your yard, EOT of turn, Arbor is "in play" without having the need for any experience counter.

KoTR

I am suggesting to replace Courser by KoTR.
Don't get me wrong.

Sidenote

The trend (my trend) is playing more like a midrange deck while playing with an Abzan Fit version.

I like this approach. I've been a ferocious proponent to basically lower every Nic Fit version's mana curve since ages while keeping a good chunk of what makes Nic Fit so special.

Let's face it. The fact is the archetype struggles. Period.

We (Nic Fit community and I) have made a couple of top 8 since last 2 years but nothing really outstanding.
I have been playing every version of Nic Fit to some astonished results and to some others, really poor.

So now, what can we do to push our archetype further ?

Here is a brief sum up of my achievements:

- Scapeshift: Semi final.
- Jund PF Fit: Top 8
- Rea BUG Fit: Semi Final
- Abzan Pod Fit: Won a tournament
- Walker Fit (before Mc Darby special): Top 8
- BUG Fit (control with a few PW): Top 8

So where am I ?
- I usually crush Tempo
- I lose to combo
- 50/50 against control

What am I proposing ?
- lower a bit our already very good % win rate against tempo.
- Trying to find a way to reach 50/50 against combo.
- Finding an edge to beat the 50/50 control MU.

That might be gross, but you get the idea.

How to ?

I think we are, in a wide spread fashion, getting cute.
Jamming Bomb is nice. But bombs are usually not very legacy playable.
To jam bombs, we need to ramp.
To ramp we need explorer triggers.

Etc...

Actually I think we are "weak" in the early stage of any games save the veteran + therapy start.
I want more starts that give us another way to compete with other legacy decks.

End of Sidenote

I have suggested KoTR in a previous post.
Playing a GSZ package should not prevent us from playing a cheap "beater".
Why ?
Just because in a few MU, going for big fatties does not matter, at all:
- Either because you won't have time to resolve a Titan (for example)
- Or because any cheap & strong threat can do the job quicker without asking for stars to be aligned (read 5+ mana in play...)

True fact is that we are already cutting most of our bombs G2 & G3, against some MU.

Hence, having access to a cheap beater (as a 1-of) makes a lot of sense. One that you won't cut postboard.

From my point of view the said beater must be a CMC 2 or 3 max and GSZable.

- Tarmo is certainly the best vanilla beater. But do we really have the tool to make him a 4/5 on turn 3 ?
- Strangleroot is another one with more synergy with Nic Fit's core than Tarmo. But GG is pushing hard in fair MU.
- KoTR is the last one. 3 CMC might be a lot but it has at least some synergy with some Nic Fit version and can be good when you have access to some utility lands (Phyrexian, Karakas, Stronghold, Dryad Arbor). KoTR is actually never bad in any MU and doesn't push hard your mana base. At last, KoTR dodges the blowing deed @ 2.

Looking at Bobmans' list:
- He plays Karakas. S&T/Marit is a bad MU for Nic Fit. Having KoTR + Karakas might just be enough to steal a game. In a tournament, this means a lot of things, because with your discard + KotR + Karakas + PTE/STP (in a lesser extend), you have access to 6/8 tools MD to slow down your S&T/Marit opponent. If you steal G1 because of it, you are very likely to win the whole match.

- He plays Phyrexian Tower. KoTR can fetch phyrexian tower for a very quick accel and it is another broken combo with Veteran & Meren's looping ability.

So these are the sole reasons why I am suggesting KoTR.

Cheers,

Ralf.


Edit:

I don't understand why Liliana is absent from any builds (save mines) I am looking at.
Guys, the whole meta has changed.
Looking at the "decks to beat", she is a powerhouse against 80% + of them.

My 2cents.

As dissection said, not only i agree with you, but I'm also one of those who are guilty of being cute.
I think that since the printing of rhino we have a good creature that isn't cute and has a nice etb effect, while still being a solid body.
Ralf, what is you current list? I'd be curious to take a look at it, thanks

[Bobmans]

Regarding Tarmogoyf in NicFit, i tried it as a one off in a Pfirr list and as a set in straight GB. In any case it was a horrible card. It just does not fit NicFit..
Creatures should either pack a heavy utility or some combat evasive ability (or a combination). Tarmogoyf was just tooo dumb as a beatstick and didnt make any difference in any game where it was on the board.

Now into KotR, hope i cant get my hands on some Japanese versions before Sunday. Still looking for some Japanese Meren aswell..

@Ralf; how do you feel about the Taiga Slaughter Games addition?

[Ralf]

@ Bobmans:

1) Have a look p.129 for my current lists (Abzan Pod & non Pod).

2) Slaughter is a very powerful card. If you resolve it, you have almost won in 90 % usecases. But I have died with SLG in hands numerous times.
CMC 4 is a lot in the combo MU. I like the card, but if I had to make some statements:
- G2, you usually get to start against combo MU. SLG shines here because you are OTP. You are about 60 % to resolve it and thus to win the game.
- G3, things get dirty as resolving a SLG is more likely 40 %; I was usually dead a turn sooner...

Against Miracle, the card is fantastic; G2 & G3.

Post scriptum

Those numbers were acquired using samples of games.

You ask a friend to play Combo deck N°X.

1) Assume you lose G1
2) Play postboard, put the card (here, SLG) in your hand and draw 6.
3) Rince & repeat for OTP and OTD.

[Bobmans]

Ralf; thnx for the quick respons. I am familiar with SLG in Jund NicFit and i realise my question was not specific. How is your experience with the splash in the GBW lists. Did you get access to R quick enough? Is it really worth spashing for to be at SLG outside of dedicated Jund? Hope it makes better sense.