I like your list a lot, it's very similar to mine. My only question is: isn't Kaya (2 even) pretty bad vs anything non miracles? She doesn't impact the board at all, all our walkers generally have some impact or at least defend themselves, I can't imagine her being good against delver or eldrazi. Pretty much all the other 4cmc pws at least create a wall of tokensOriginally Posted by mstephenson
Does anyone have any suggestions on how best to incorporate a single Atraxa (and Brainstorm + a Leovold) into the above list while retaining NO? All of the deck functions beautifully together but an Atraxa would be amazing here as an alternative NO target if Progenitus is drawn and can't be Therapied away. Currently I grab a Sigarda in those rare occasions but Atraxa seems better than Sigarda and Brainstorm gives the deck yet another way to get rid of a Progenitus in hand. However, I don't know what changes would be required to support Atraxa and Brainstorm. Leovold would be a nice addition as well.
It's up to you. My initial reaction was no because it doesn't have enough testing, but thinking about it, it's a GB variant on SE which can be good to show SE isn't just humans or just Junk. The idea behind it can apply to any color combination so I think it's fine to include but it should probably be noted that it's a more experimental and less proven build still.
Okay. Can you provide your latest updates on SE decks so I can include them?
Here 0 is actually kind of amazing against a lot of decks, almost killed a show n tell player due to flicking emmy every turn(needed one more life for the last flicker to kill him). But against delver her super high loyalty along with flipping delvers back over is very very useful and if they do start going after her she can just flick herself and give you time to stabilize the board even more. Her -1 also comes up from time to time against aggressive decks(nice to get out of bolt/smasher range). Against eldrazi just flicking a smasher over and over is great as it is one the hardest creatures to deal with or oblivion sower. Also if you ever draw her in multiples you can -2 to oblivion which is a huge swing on cards.
Path to Exile is used under the assumption that against most decks your Veteran Explorer will get most or all the basics out of your opponent's deck anyways, so therefore it's a no-downside exile more often than not. It's obviously not always the case which is why many still play Plow.
Okay, I've got a bit of the work done after almost six hours of editing and updating. I still need the following things:
Updated SE Fit lists
An updated PFire list, if anyone is still playing that (otherwise I'll let it hang with its current anecdotal 2014 lists)
An updated BUG Pod list
An updated Junk Pod list
Matchup analysis of the following decks (Miracles, Shardless, BGx, Storm, Death and Taxes, Eldrazi) for the following lists: Rhinos, SE, Nyx Fit, BUG Pod -- a sentence or two is fine, just a quick note about how the specific matchup is and if there are any highlights of things that are important in the specific matchup
Any decent high-level feature matches since Legacy Champs 2014 -- I added David Malafarina and Sam Castrucci's features to the list, but am just seeing a bunch of air between then and now, partially because SCG doesn't put the deck archetype in their youtube titles, so I have no idea if there are any lurking SCG videos we can use.
I'm done working on it for today -- current plan is to have it up next Monday or Tuesday, after Louisville happens and hopefully we have a good result to post.
Nyx Fit Matchups:
Miracles:
They have trouble interacting with most of our permanents - Starfield and Deed are all stars here since Starfield let's you dodge the only way they interact with you (on the stack) and Deed means they can't go under you and kill you with Mentor or Entreat. Spirit of the Labyrinth is great out of the side, especially if Sterling Grove gives it shroud.
Shardless:
We don't really care about anything they do. Watch out for early Goyf aggression, as that's the most likely way for you to lose. Deed is great again. None of their removal exiles, Rector is basically Moat against them if you can keep them off Deathrite.
BGx (I assume you mean Loam, Jund, Maverick, other Nic Fit):
Dont get run over by Tarmogoyf. Slam haymaker enchantments till they lose. Often they're slow enough you can aim for Living Plane + Doomwake, but recurring Deed usually ends the game too. Deathrite can prevent Rector trigger, but doesn't do shit against Starfield.
Storm:
Therapy is God. I normally name LED since it's the card that's most likely to result in your death before you can get established. Hopefully you have a Dovescape or Nether Void or Leyline of Sanctity maindeck, because if you don't Rector triggers don't actually pressure them much. Leyline helps a lot post SB, especially with Sterling Grove. Side out your spot removal and slow spells but keep a couple sweepers in for Empty the Warren's.
D&T: Doomwake is important. His cost isn't reduced by Thalia, remember. You can often just Sterling Grove for him eot, then untap and slam him. Deed is every important. You don't have many early blockers, but if you can resolve a Rector trigger they probably lose.
Eldrazi: Hope they don't have Thought-Knot. Doomwake is amazing again, kills Mimic and blocks Smasher. If they're prevalent in your area, putting a Ghostly Prison or two in your sideboard helps a lot. They have little CA and no answers to enchantments, so if you can stabilize at all your probably just run them over.
Incidentally one thing I realized - Grixis runs Deathrite, but often doesn't have an early green source which means they still get wrecked by Rector since they often can't exile him even if they have the Deathrite.
That's some great work guys.
As for the Rhino MUs:
Miracles:
40/60 at best. Lost Legacy does a lot of work out of the sideboard. Planeswalkers are your best bet for a kill condition.
Shardless:
Very good MU, about 70/30. They don't have a quick clock and don't mess with your stuff too much. Find creatures with CMC > 3 to blank their ADs.
BGx:
Grindfest which you're well equiped to handle. 50/50 or better.
Storm:
G1 you're shit out of luck. G2/3 get to be about 50/50, or rather 60/40 for G2 and 40/60 for G3. The bulk of your sideboard should be focused on this. Board out Rhinos, Sigarda, creature spotremoval and any other expensive stuff to accomodate the SB. For CT name Infernal Tutor vs. ANT, vs. TES your best bet is Dark Ritual.
D&T:
50/50 MU. Their biggest threat is Batterskull. Get rid of that and you're golden. Pernicious Deed is a star here, and so is Sigarda.
Eldrazi:
No experience so far, someone else needs to fill that in.
Great job!
The PFire list remains to be my favorite deck and i bring it into competitive environments from time to time. Most of the matchup's are grindy and go into extra time. It always surprises me that the deck can manoeuvre thru many difficult situations and can get back from very negative board states. Also, this would be one of the decks that has a positive match-up against miracles.
If it weren't for the little time i have to actually play these days, i'd probably push this deck for more results.
I do, however, keep track of an updated list that is parked in my signature. The specific list is a red heavy list supporting Stormbreath Dragon and Chandra, Flamecaller.
There is argument to play a less red heavy list and drop the dragons/chandra for more consistency. One could also argue to run Thrun, the Last Troll in combination with Kessig Wolf Run. Which might also trigger the use of The Gitrog Monster, not that i would, but it is nice that there is room for tweaking and tooling.
But, in it's core i would probably settle for something like:
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Taiga
1x Badlands
2x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Nissa, Vital Force
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
3x Pernicious Deed
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
What do you name with Lost Legacy? Terminus?
I have a Garruk in sideboard for this matchup
When I played Rhinos vs Miracles, I named Entreat or Mentor as seen from G1, Jace on any second LL's. Let them Terminus until they are blue in the face. GSZ the rhinos back out and PW to death. Alternatively, you can LL Swords and grind baby!
They don't have too many wincons. I preferably name Jace as my first target for Lost Legacy since that's the threat we have the hardest time answering.
On a sidenote - Lost Legacy is pretty funny vs. a lot of decks. Yesterday I tested it vs. D&T. Target #1: Batterskull, target #2: Swords to Plowshares. Threat neutralized!
I tweaked my NO list to incorporate blue. Any suggestions for the manabase or sideboard?
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Progenitus
1 Flex Slot: Scavenging Ooze/Qasali Pridgemage/Reclamation Sage/Kitchen Finks/Tireless Tracker/Thragtusk
1 Dryad Arbor
21 Lands
Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Toxic Deluge
I don't see why this is not a common route to go with this deck. NO is the best card you can cast for 4 mana, because it gets you freaking Progenitus. NO is very easy to support since the deck by design already plays 9 undercosted green weenies you don't mind saccing + 4 GSZ to grab Veteran Explorers + can fetchland up Dryad Arbor in a pinch. Counting fetch lands, it effectively has 21 ways to get a cheap weenie to sac for NO and saccing a Veteran Explorer to fuel NO feels amazing. Brainstorm + fetch gives it a great way to get rid of a drawn Progenitus, and you can even use Cabal Therapy to do the same, or simply grab Sigarda or Atraxa with NO in a pinch.
The only changes I had to make to make room for blue was swapping a Siege Rhino with Atraxa and replacing Tops and Painful Truths with Brainstorm. BS is the better card draw engine anyway so it wasn't a difficult thing to do.
Apart from veteran you have only dudes you don't want to sac, and in this meta I wouldn't like to have my 4mana sorcery countered AND my dude (potentially a good dude since you don't have bad creatures to sac except arbor or VE) sacrificed. This build of yours wants to be blown out pretty hard it seems
Btw: tap top, terminus: nice progenital you have bro
Terminus is actually one of the best reasons to play NO. Nic Fit's entire board is vulnerable to Terminus. One huge advantage with NO builds is that you have no reason to play any other creatures if you land a Progenitus (very achievable on turn 3/4 thanks to Cabal Therapy) vs Miracles. You can completely avoid overextending. With NO, you are able to force them to use Terminus (if they have it) to take out just one creature while you're still holding a fistful of threats. If they don't have a Terminus in their top 3, you are guaranteed to win the game in 1-2 turns, if they do, this is still far superior to losing your entire board and effectively losing the game to Terminus which is what happens to most other Nic Fit builds (Miracles uses Top to delay the Terminus to time it optimally against other Nic Fit decks. They time the Terminus for when they can completely blow the Nic Fit player out of the game by taking out several creatures, they can't do this vs NO builds however, they either pop the Terminus asap, or they lose the game).
You're effectively playing 8 VE's thanks to GSZ. And yes, I very much like saccing them to NO. But I have absolutely no reason to feel blown out if I sacced a Dryad Arbor or Eternal Witness or hell, even a Deathrite Shaman to NO. It's just a 1 mana creature. They lost FoW + a relevant blue card and you lost NO and an insignificant card, that's not a blow out by any means. And you already have Cabal Therapy to help avoid this scenario in the first place. And you can fetch up Arbor with any of your 8 fetch lands. Thats effectively 20 cards (4 VE + 4 GSZ + 1 Arbor + 8 Fetchlands + 2 DS + 1 EW), one third of the entire deck packed with creatures that you can sac to NO without batting an eye. So there is never a situation where you will need to sac a relevant creature to NO. That's way better than the amount of resources that Pod makes you expend to get utility from it.
Why would you keep VE vs miracles? They have to have terminus with Sigarda, also, and it's not like we dominate them thanks to that card.
Elves players board out their NO, and they are the ultimate NO deck and can sac whatever dude because they all are 1mana dorks, in that MU and I can't find a valid reason for us to do differently.
For 4 mana tsunami is a better bang for your buck: they still "have to have x card" (a counter) right?
Echelon where are you when you are needed, I can't impersonate you any longer
Why are you bringing postboard games into this. You were clearly talking about game 1 in your first post. By all means, bring in Tsunami or Choke and Carpet of Flowers and Reclamation Sage and Thoughtseize and Thalia and everything else you have to help against Miracles post board, thats what I do.
You said you like saccing veteran, the only card you can reasonably invest into NO, so I assume you play VE vs miracles in G2-3.
That assumption doesn't even make sense. Why would anyone not like saccing VE to NO? That is by no means specific to Miracles.
I have 11 sideboard cards to bring in vs. Miracles.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
