I've noticed that we are tending to tilt our decks a bit either towards Miracles (shardless) or towards Delver (combo), but in so doing, we're making ourselves weaker to the other category of deck. What are cards that we could be running that affect both camps of deck? Thragtusk seems like a sure winner here -- when moving away from Rhinos, Thrag obviously comes roaring right back -- he's great against the grind, he's great against the fast decks, and he's great against Eldrazi. What are some other Thragtusk style cards we should be looking into?
Reveillark ?Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Restoration angel ? (flash is great, and is effect is combo with tusk )
Default: non green creatures
Thanks for your ideas.
I didn't knew Faith's Fetters. I need to try it cause for now, what I see:
+ 4ccm avoid decay and let us more flexible on our deed
+ can target a land
+ gain life
- no exil, so don't remove any token or walker's loyaulty
- no exil, so if managed, it's as if the permanent had haste (if creature).
It seems that balance goes to in ;)
Recycle, I knew it well with Aluren. But totally forgot it. Can work well indeed essentially with Starfield.
For now, I'm trying the previous advices, removing my red splash.
So I put a Curse of Death's hold in side (with the 2nd humility or against decks with a lot of X/1)
And Doomwake Giant in main deck (swap + big body)
But on my build, I think Dovescape is too big and double edged.
I added a Tireless tracker too, trying to remove a SDT.
I'm waiting to get more feed back from testings before posting my new list.
So for now I will try recycle and Faith's fetter ;)
Thrun, the Last Troll
Reaper of the Wilds
Tireless Tracker
Obstinate Baloth
Loxodon Smiter
Giant Solifuge
Burning-Tree Shaman
Kodama of the North Tree
Phantom Centaur
The Gitrog Monster
Spiritmonger
Glare of Subdual
Loxodon Hierarch
Saffi Eriksdotter
Ohran Viper
Phantom Nishoba
Oracle of Mul Daya
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Kokusho, the Evening Star
That's all I can think of at the moment. I'm sure there are plenty more. For BUG Fit lists, Meloku plus Tracker seems spicy...
Wilt-Leaf Liege seems worth talking about. In a most GW shell of course.
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
@Arian regarding cards good against miracles and delver (and eldrazi while I'm at it), I don't want to beat a thoroughly dead horse with a stick (who am I kidding, I'm golgari!)
SFM
SFM
SFM
Jitte
SoFaI
SoLaS
BSK
Abrupt Decay
Deed
Tusk
Sigarda
Punishing Fire
Lilliana
Lingering Souls
Are the best cards I can think of that can shine in all three of those matchups.
If we want to stay GBW:
Stoneforge Mystic: Had bad experiences with him but maybe I used him wrong or had a lot of bad variance. In theory still good, mana sink plus Therapy synergy.
Lingering Souls: can pressure Jace, chump and is good with Therapy. Excellent equipment carrier. Probably only viable in combination with other cards that can benefit from tokens, like SFM or Humility or when you need things to sacrifice.
Birthing Pod: A strong threat immune to Terminus against Miracles and a flexible solution seeker against aggression and combo.
Swords to Plowshares: Without Rhinos we might want to go back to Legacy's standard removal.
Liliana of the Veil: Good against Miracles and even a more expensive Chainer's with an upside is solid against Eldrazi. Also nice against Combo decks.
Thrun: Small Sigarda could be viable if 4-drop slot is less full.
Terminus does reset Pod though and you will need a new creature before you can continue Podding after Terminus.
I've been sideboarding very differently against Miracles - something like this:
-1 Jitte
-2 Veteran Explorer (1 left)
-1 Thoughtseize
-2 Cabal Therapy (2 left)
-1 Toxic Deluge
-3 Path
+1 Thrag
+1 Teeg
+3 Surgical Extraction
+2 Carpet of Flowers
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Abrupt Decay
I'm keeping with 2 Therapy and 0 Thoughtseize post-side, rather than your 0 Therapy 4 Thoughtseize. I've found that generally they both achieve the same effect against miracles (clear out counterspells so you can resolve a haymaker) but Therapy has additional synergy with the tokens and unneeded Stoneforges we have, along with Surgical.
I really like Surgical Extraction against Miracles - while it doesn't completely disable the deck (see Slaughter Games discussion) it does do a lot of scary things, particularly when we're running Therapy and when we're playing so many Must-Force spells. Even just taking Terminus or Force or Swords is very strong, getting them to shuffle at times when they've stacked their deck is really powerful too.
I don't know if Sorin & Scrying are a good idea when you're cutting all the Veteran Explorers - you only have 21 lands and no ramp cards, casting 6-drops and big X spells feels pretty hopeful. I get that the game goes long, but our haymakers are a lot better when we cast them before turn eight. I'm keeping one Vet to Zenith up if I need the mana asap / something to Therapy off right now, and still have a Sakura-Tribe Elder to work with as well. Carpet of Flowers does a lot of work.
I keep in Decay just because most players keep counterbalance in in my experience - but also if I side out both Swords/Path and Abrupt Decay, I am very thin on the ground in answers to Monastery Mentor. Post-sideboard you are pretty much on Deed, Thoughtseize and that's it for answers to the stupid monk, and that really worries me.
I'm also surprised you don't take Meren out against Miracles, she seems pretty uninspiring there - I guess she demands a 1 for 1 trade immediately but that still seems to be playing into their game plan more than into ours.
All the other matchups look pretty much the same as I would go for, running ZP as Deluge where relevant. I'd be tempted to run Needle in the D&T and Eldrazi matchups for Vial/Mom/equipment and Endbringer/Displacer/equipment. Generally I always put it in against decks that run Jitte. Against Shardless ZP isn't as relevant as Deluge so I'd probably keep some Therapy in or add in Carpet to overrun them with threats / Deed faster.
My current build i am struggling with. While it looks good on paper, it feels not powerful enough. I sometimes think that it has not enough threats or that these are not strong enough.
I would be realy thankful if someone, more expierienced than me, has any kind of help for me.
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Green Sun`s Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Angiushed Unmaking
2 Painful Truths
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei`s Divining Top
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavening Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
PS: The Taiga is for SLaughter Games SB
I think you're running too many big monsters. You're running 10 big threats that don't really contribute other than ending the game eventually. I don't think you can afford to run 4 Rhino + Sigarda + Thragtusk + DLD + Sorin, it's just too many expensive spells you'll never cast - you only need 1-2 of them to end the game anyway. A lot of decks are going to go under you and kill you if you stumble on mana a little bit, particularly when your removal is partially slow like Deed or dangerous against aggro like Anguished Unmaking.
You also have a lot of cards which don't pressure combo lists at all - of course you can get past this with your sideboard, but I do get the impression you're a bit low on interaction, and very reliant on Therapy hitting.
Is there a formula how nic fit should be build?
I was thinking that i am running too few monsters. Interessting that it might be the other way round.
I going with the idea that the rhinos are the first to leave. Keeping 2 of them. But what should come in?
Gadock Teeg? Voice of Resurgence? Kitchen Finks? Maybe Flip Nissa?
There isn't really a formula. I personally try to go by this:
14+ Green and Black untapped lands turn 1
13+ third colour lands
10+ ramp effects (Zenith, Vet, STE, DRS)
14+ 'Interaction' effects (Discard, Removal, Sweeper) - at least 4 discard, 4 spot removal, 3 sweeper
14+ 'Consistency' effects (Tops, Draw spells, Zenith, tutors)
12+ 'Finisher' effects (creatures power > 2, planeswalkers, Zeniths)
Plenty of cards overlap, and that's just my personal preferences. A lot of people like to run more ramp effects, or more finishers, or whatever.
I don't think more smaller creatures are what the deck needs - Voice of Resurgence and Kitchen Finks are only really very relevant in Birthing Pod builds. Teeg is pretty good, but usually just a sideboard card for combo/control decks because he turns our own Zeniths and planeswalkers off.
IMO your best bet would be to run more card draw effects and other CA options - you're a bit low on that side of things. Since you seem to like the creature heavy builds, the obvious choice would be to put in 1-2 copies of Tireless Tracker.
Hold the phone here - Wilt Leaf DOES do amazing work for us. Listen up - Deathrites and Vets bump by 1, Rhino bumps by 2 (6/7 challenges most Goyfs and kills Angler), bumps Sigarda by 2, and swings for 4 on its own. Let's not overlook this. It's not huge in Maverick since 4 mana is huge for them. For us? Not really.
Think about it.
-Matt
Also punishes liliana, which can sometimes cause us problems depending on specific hands. James might be on to something there.
I don't think Wilt Leaf is necessarily what we want, just because he's similar to Rhino - does nothing to fast decks / combo and is only relevant against Miracles if we are overextending. Looks like he'd be great at beating on creature decks smaller than ours, like Rhino, and not help us much in the matchups we have trouble with.
Also gets to come into play free if we use Swords or Path on a Reality Smasher
I cannot imagine the meta that maindecking wilt leaf liege to pump siege rhinos is correct. That being said this thread definitely leans towards funny over correct so I suppose lets cheer on some 6/7 Rhinos...
Upon reflecting on Wilt-Leaf on the way home from errands, I don't think it's quite what we want -- but I think that there is value in the suggestion. Being able to pump our dorks when we draw them lategame is relevant. Some people have been moving this way with Stoneforge Mystic anyway -- but there are other ways to accomplish the same goal. Kessig Wolf Run might need another look, for one. I'm still high on Nylea, God of the Hunt, as another option.
The problem that we've found ourselves mired in is tied directly to the tempo of the games. We can beat the fast decks. We can beat the slow decks. We can beat the mid-range decks. We can't beat all of these things simultaneously. What we need is better scaling -- cards that are good in all stages of the game. We can't afford to draw a Veteran Explorer on turn 5 against Miracles, for example -- but neither is it desirable to never draw one vs Eldrazi, Delver, and random decks. We can't cut Veteran Explorer despite it being awful in the slow, grindy portion of the metagame because it's just too critical elsewhere. That means that we need to find ways to scale Vets up to being reasonable threats on their own.
Wilt-Leaf might not be quite the card we want -- as Navsi pointed out, it pushes us into Rhino territory where we begin to occupy that awkward middle ground where we're neither small nor big enough to handle the field. But I do definitely think that the /reasoning/ behind Wilt-Leaf is valid.
My opinion the reason that you are finding Rhino lacking is that the deck is trying to straddle the middle ground like you said. Siege Rhino isnt good enough to be a top end for a ramp deck. If I was playing a rhino deck I would probably drop deed and play spot removal and deluges. The deck still gets to play decay/pulse to hit non creatures. Sfm, scooze and other mid-drop creatures would make this like a big maverick deck vs Nic fit.
Otherwise going bigger by dropping rhino and just being a control deck with a couple of hard to answer threats/pws. The trouble with a non blue control deck is that a slow clock and no way to control the top of their deck is rough. The nature of the cards that people want to play in this deck come with certain limitations-
- Double sided mana ramp is going to be terrible against miracles
- 4 Discard spells and a slow clock mean combo is going to be a challenge MD
- No way to control/counter cards drawn mean protracted games that favor Nic Fit do not always work out
- 4+ drops in a Legacy mean that some games you will die with uncastable cards due to wasteland/stifle/counters/discard
Those are all some of core issues with the deck. You can pick some of these to solve but the deck doesnt have space to do them all. The deck is slanted to beat midrange fair decks and delverish decks. I would concentrate on beating those. Add cards to the board to shore up lands/post/combo and understand that this deck is not a 50% against the field deck.
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