[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Koby]

I personally like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad vs grindy Blue matchups. Generating tokens while ticking up to a sure-fire ultimate to kill off Jace is much more consistently (and earlier) compared to his larger brother. Each ability gives more pressure on the 4 cc, compared to the 6 cc. I see Garruk Relentless as comparable, due to the token generation.

[uncletiggy]

The new sorin is very powerful on paper as a one of in rhino fit. That being said I'm wondering if the card is powerful enough to be built around. My recent delve into boarding two ensnaring bridges in fatty matches leads me to believe there me be a potential archtype all its own as a junk walkers varient. Traditionally walker lists have been BUG and it may be worth exporing if a walker list can solve the decks bad matchups while retaining its good ones. Im going to start with this and see where it goes. Its rough draft with no board and two flex slots one of which being the 61st card:


4 vet
2 deathrite
1 scooze
1 witness
1 flex? courser/glissa/finks (early zenithable blocker/lifegain)
1 thragtusk
1 sigarda

4 zenith
3 top

4 therapy
4 decay
2 e bridge
3 deed
3 lili
1 garruk relentles
1 ob nixilis
1 vraska
1 sorin


22 lands
3 bayou
1 scrub
1 savanna
1 phyrexian tower
3 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
4 verdant catacombs
4 winswept heath
1 wooded foothills

Ob nixilis and vraska are the weakest walkers but will act as place holders for now.

[jbone2016]

I look forward to your results. I am apprehensive with trying abeyance because I feel it to be too corner case. I will dabble and express my findings after which.

Also with the gp coming up, who is going to GP Columbus? Also, is anyone going to the modern gp in Charlotte?

Yo. Hopefully breaking my streak of not making day two.

[Arianrhod]

I personally like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad vs grindy Blue matchups. Generating tokens while ticking up to a sure-fire ultimate to kill off Jace is much more consistently (and earlier) compared to his larger brother. Each ability gives more pressure on the 4 cc, compared to the 6 cc. I see Garruk Relentless as comparable, due to the token generation.

I agree with this pretty strongly, although I'd like to note that Elspeth is pretty great too (either Knight-Errant or Sun's Champ, mostly depending on the amount of Eldrazi you have to worry about).

[Brael]

We are the better grind but jtms throws a phallus shaped wrench into our plans.

JTMS is a problem at times but between Rhinos, Meren, Sigarda, Eternal Witness, and even fetching Dryad Arbor can help a lot, it's not that difficult to answer a Jace if that's all they have. It's always an issue between extending into Terminus and going wide enough to deal with him but they only have so many of those.

I find that the deck can usually grind it's way through a single lock whether it's Jace, Counter/Top, Venser/Karakas, or anything else, it's when they have multiples that you usually lose and the games always go long.

[sdematt]

JTMS is a problem at times but between Rhinos, Meren, Sigarda, Eternal Witness, and even fetching Dryad Arbor can help a lot, it's not that difficult to answer a Jace if that's all they have. It's always an issue between extending into Terminus and going wide enough to deal with him but they only have so many of those.

I find that the deck can usually grind it's way through a single lock whether it's Jace, Counter/Top, Venser/Karakas, or anything else, it's when they have multiples that you usually lose and the games always go long.

It's why I've also been an advocate of Sigarda #2, since it also just nugs your BGx matchups, as well as the mirror.

[Echelon]

They just need to print a 3 mana Abrupt Decay+ that is uncounterable and kills anything non-land CMC 4 & smaller, that's all.

Sigarda Deux should be fine. Certainly won't make shit worse.

[rubblekill]

Now that I think about it: would a MCH for 0 be essentially a free +1 meren counter every turn with meren in play? Am I missing something?
It's not like it's a game breaking interaction, but I thought it's pretty cool.

[uncletiggy]

I'm going to cast my lot that tusk #1 is generally better then sigarda #2 and probably one of the most overlooked pieces of tech from yester-year. Tusk is probably the single biggest reason i have a hard time letting go of nightmare.

On a side note i've noticed a growing trend in the number of players triming the third top or forsaking them altogether. I'm curious because my serious list has no room and if i want to md glissa in an eldrazi room or finks in a burn meta top #3 is the only space I can see. For reference this is the list in question with hypothetical changes:

4 vet
2 drs
1 scooze
1 qpm
1 ewitness
1 glissa
1 meren
4 rhino
1 sigarda
1 tusk

4 zenith
2 top
2 truths

4 therapy
3 decay
3 path
3 deed
1 pulse

22 lands

3 bayou
2 savanna
1 scrub
1 badlands
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
1 tower
4 catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 wooded foothills

16g 15b 12w 9r

2 ts
3 surgical
2 games
2 grip
1 teeg
1 needle
1 sorin
1 e plaque
2 bridge



The biggest thing for me lately has been how good is slaughter games anymore? I even tried it md just to see it more often and i havent been happy. Ive been mostly underwhelmed for some time and am strongly considering droping the splash altogether to really make the mana comfortable and super consistant. Id consider pulse and needle in those slots initially.

[Echelon]

@uncletiggy: I'd switch a Bayou for a Plains in your MB and switch a basic Forest for a Savannah. That brings you @15/14/14.

@rubble: The only thing you missed is that you get the experience counter and not Meren but that is all, my good sir.

[Tao]

I really like this new Sorin, he seems like a great inclusion in control heavier GBwr decks or as a 1-off in Rhino Fit. However, if you aim for something like "Walker Fit", you gotta go with Blue for Jace, the ultimate Planeswalker.

To clarify: I'm not saying that better pilots make Dryad Arbor an insanely powerful card, I'm saying that if you keep Dryad Arbor in the back of your head as a multitool, it gains more value than it appears to have at first glance.

You're obviously very much against the use of Dryad Arbor and that's fine. Let's try the following: Without putting too much thought into it (since you can't sit and think for half an hour when locking horns with an opponent), post a list of uses you'd have for Dryad Arbor. Then let's make it a communal thing and see if people can add to that list (i.e. expand the communal mindfulness of how Dryad Arbor can be beneficial). Let's see where we end up compared to the starting point.

Uses for Dryad Arbor:

- drawing it into your opening hand
- killing it with your own Deed
- seeing it in the top 3 card of your SDT, shuffling your library, and seeing it again
- turning your GSZ into a Duress on Lightning Bolt

Jokes aside, I think I can play with Arbor just fine and know its applications. In my experience it is not powerful enough to be worth the trouble and backfires too often when compared to the cases when it is good.

[Ralf]

Did you run 2 copies of Meren?

On overall your list looks pretty solid.

Not really sure about Abeyance, typically we want something that lasts longer then a turn and we want to tap-out. Effects like this suite more in a deck much faster clock, where we are grindy in most MU's.

My mistake. I was running only 1 Meren.

[Echelon]

Uses for Dryad Arbor:

- drawing it into your opening hand
- killing it with your own Deed
- seeing it in the top 3 card of your SDT, shuffling your library, and seeing it again
- turning your GSZ into a Duress on Lightning Bolt

Jokes aside, I think I can play with Arbor just fine and know its applications. In my experience it is not powerful enough to be worth the trouble and backfires too often when compared to the cases when it is good.

In that case, humor me. I have the exact opposite experience.

Or, you know, we let this die silently.

[Ralf]

I'm going to cast my lot that tusk #1 is generally better then sigarda #2 and probably one of the most overlooked pieces of tech from yester-year. Tusk is probably the single biggest reason i have a hard time letting go of nightmare.

On a side note i've noticed a growing trend in the number of players triming the third top or forsaking them altogether. I'm curious because my serious list has no room and if i want to md glissa in an eldrazi room or finks in a burn meta top #3 is the only space I can see. For reference this is the list in question with hypothetical changes...

I guess we could argue for hours but here are some foods for thoughts:

- Glissa is an unfortunate trap. I have been testing it intensively and it doesn't bring enough to the table as it dies to every removal in the format and does not provide any ETB trigger.

- Meren is "cute". I have been a major proponent for playing it, but again after intensive testing, it belongs more to a hard control Nic Fit type of deck than a Rhino Junk build.

Don't get me wrong with what I'm saying. Actually, the more you add some random control/recursive element based on our ability to tutor them, the more you make the deck less straight forward (and somehow inconsistent). Not to mention that playing Meren makes us even more grave dependant and this is usually "bad" for G2 & G3.

Based on testing, I ended up cutting the "what if" stuff for a more straight forward strategy:

a) Control the early game with as many removal as possible
b) Stabilize & draw cards that pushes you ahead.
c) Close the game

Why ?

1) We are really gaining a bunch of life
2) Painful Truth is really that busted combined with our life gain abilities (so I went up to 3 MD). I feel like I'm playing Shardless to be honest...You are trading one card for another until you resolve one and it pushes you so far ahead...
3) Vindicate is a better catch-all for Junk builds. Period. Being able to hit any permanent is really huge.

With 4 rhino, 1 Tusk, 1 Ooze, 2 DRS, you have enough to deal with Burn (your config).
With (my config for example) 4 PTE, 3 Decay, 3 Pernicious, 2 vindicate you have enough to deal with Eldrazi. Glissa is a T3 drop and more likely 90 % of the time a T4 drop (GSZ) that dies to dismember. If Eldrazi has it all, you are not going to win this game anyway. If not, my removal suite works like a charm.

For reference here is my latest list (also available a few pages back) and a few comments:


1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Siege Rhino
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile

2 Vindicate
3 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Abeyance



- Karakas is there for monsters deck. I'm forecasting a S&T comeback to be honest. S&T strategy seems to be utterly good in the current meta.

- KOTR is the beating I was looking for. After testing, it has own its place. It works like wonder:
1) Can be really huge
2) Gets you Karakas / Tower
3) Helps thinning the deck + synergy with SDT
4) Is the beating I was looking for against combo deck

- Vindicate is an all-star. I forgot how good that card was...

- 4 PTE. I was pissed by losing to Infect (too bad it had some collateral damages to Marit Lage deck...)

- 3 Abeyance. I already wrote a bunch of explanations about that one and I understand the overall skepticism but it is very good against the actual DTB section:
1) Fucking with a miracle trigger is game, gentlemen. If they don't get to terminus for W or entreat you, they die. It is as simple as that. The fact that it could mess with Snapcaster (and few other tricks) on the stack is just cherry on the cake. Protecting a Painful Truth is also the kind of play that can put you in a very good position.
2) Fucking with ancestral vision last counter's trigger is also game against shardless.
3) Catching Infernal Tutor is "game". I understand that leaving mana open can be awkward but that's the difference between life and death. This is typically a game where you drop a DRS and play draw/land/discard/go/surgical during the very early turns until you can drop something bigger (ooze/Kotr). Banking your arse on a 4 CMC sorcery spell (SLG) is almost suicide.
No to mention that floating Abeyance with SDT is as nasty (almost unbeatable for a storm deck) as the era when I was floating Mindbreak Trap against storm with other SDT decks...
4) It is also pretty nice against infect (and to a lesser extend against Elves!) as it protects your PTE from FOW or it can lure your opponent to go "all in" when you have the said PTE in hand which might turn into a blowout. Against Elves!, the card is usually average but can prevent you from dying to a T3 NO (when played during upkeep) or to a NO after a glimpse chain. Anyway, it basically gives you another turn to live and to be able to land a deed and wipe the board (how many games have you died with Deed in hand and only 3 lands on the board?)

Anyway, apologies for this wall of text and congrats to anyone who has made it thus far.
This is based on my experience and must be taken with some salt.

As usual, happy to discuss.

[Echelon]

In the examples you give for Abeyance, Silence/Orim's Chant does the same for less mana. The only difference being that it doesn't replace itself. Especially vs. ANT/TES that 1 mana can be the difference between life and death.

[Ralf]

In the examples you give for Abeyance, Silence/Orim's Chant does the same for less mana. The only difference being that it doesn't replace itself. Especially vs. ANT/TES that 1 mana can be the difference between life and death.

Like I have said a page ago...

[Echelon]

Do know, don't care.

[Jain_Mor]

The fact that Abeyance cantrips is really relevant against miracles and shardless (I haven't actually brought it in against shardless though, is it really that good Ralf? I'll have to give it a try) I wouldn't board in silence against miracles I don't think.

[Ralf]

The fact that Abeyance cantrips is really relevant against miracles and shardless (I haven't actually brought it in against shardless though, is it really that good Ralf? I'll have to give it a try) I wouldn't board in silence against miracles I don't think.

Well, the card is worth testing.

I like the cantrip thing and the fact that it messes with a lot of activated abilities. As aforementioned explained, one can play Silence instead as it is a better card against combo.

[Warden]

...The biggest thing for me lately has been how good is slaughter games anymore? I even tried it md just to see it more often and i havent been happy. Ive been mostly underwhelmed for some time and am strongly considering droping the splash altogether to really make the mana comfortable and super consistant. Id consider pulse and needle in those slots initially.

You're not alone, but I cannot find something I'd consider an "upgrade" to Slaughter Games other than keeping it on-color yet counterable in Cranial Extraction.
I also like red for From the Ashes, which would do wonders in my meta.

I myself am considering Shriekmaw in the 75 to compliment Glissa in the fight against spaghetti monsters.dec
I like 'Maw because it's basically sorc speed removal with legs. Survives common deeds. Fuels Meren. Fear if you keep him on the table is a major benefit, as DRS and Strix are the only black creatures I've seen in months.

@KotR: I love her, but can't help but feel she's better in bunches (2-3x KotR actually provide a solid clock + clog the board).