So we are 4 colors and entirely based of a graveyard based combo that requires multiple spells to resolve in order to reanimate a card? I admire innovation but I do not believe that deck to be either consistent nor overall powerful enough to play over other versions.
If we are playing the deck as a control deck then jace is exactly the card that furthers the control game plan (please do not disagree that Jace is not a great control card) and even if we play your more combo orientated deck it would be useful as a way to dig for combo pieces while force the opponent to deal with it while you set your combo up. Dig through time would probably be a better card for your deck any way through.
There are plenty of Nicfit decks that play a more combo orientated kill. Scapeshift and the White angel/spike feeder both being decks that leaned on the combo element quite a bit. Your deck is not even attempting to do anything other than combo so it is different from those sure but I do not think its any better.
Either your deck needs the combo to be extremely fast or very compact. This deck is neither.
That's a rather fast conclusion. It took about a year to develop the intuition build (AND I'm saying my list is subpar compared to the more focused list of the original creator). Your 2 minutes screening of the list without any play testing is something I cannot take serious. If you aren't willing to try it out and have your mind set regardless, fine, go play Jace. There are better Jace decks than Nic Fit but there are not better combo decks with the hand shredding capability of 4 cabal therapies/2 therapies+hymn to tourach on turn 2.
The game plan of Nic Fit is two fold:
A) Get asymmetric gains from veteran explorer due to the high density of basic lands
B) Accelerate the early game to the end game, while leaving your opponent with nothing to cast / have better stuff to cast than the opponent
Jace is a good card, but there is simply no space for Jace in an optimized version of Nic Fit.
I guess there's a second Explorer in the mix there? Otherwise you'll need another creature to sac, and another mana if you don't have Intent.Originally Posted by bruizar
And that's an incredibly shortsighted rebuttal when you openly admit the deck is two years old. Legacy has gotten a lot faster and a lot more efficient in that time, what you're doing just isn't powerful or robust enough to warrant such a backdoor way of cheating Griselbrand into play, or comboing with Palinchron and Recurring Nightmare. Am I missing something, or is there nothing to do with that infinite mana to close out the game too?
Infinite mana turns into infinite probe, infinite cards turns into infinite pernicious deed, infinite hymn to tourach and 27 power on the board. That's enough of a win condition.
Yes, legacy has changed and yes the list needs to be updated. Even if I'd pilot this list today it would still hold up quite well though. The speed of the format doesn't really matter when you're shredding hands to oblivion on turns one and two.
I should mention that Griselbrand can be any bomb, such as Iona, or something else. You can't be serious that reanimating is not powerful enough.what you're doing just isn't powerful or robust enough to warrant such a backdoor way of cheating Griselbrand into play
EOT Intuition for
* Unburial Rites
* Gigapede
* Bomb
Upkeep, return Gigapede by discarding bomb or Unburial Rites
Play a land
Flashback Unburial Rites
If you pick Iona against Omnitell after first shredding with therapies, you win the game.
Assuming this all resolves. I know the 'dies to Doom Blade' argument sucks, but seriously, if you think this can be pulled off that easily you're delusional.
Yes, if you'd pilot it today. Which you're not, so what evidence do we have that this is the absolute number one best OMG nic fit EVER!?
Shredding hands into oblivion? Which those 5 discard spells in a format rampant with Brainstorm and SDT. Sure thing buddy.
To quote yourself - 'If you aren't willing to try it out and have your mind set regardless, fine'
Run this through a gauntlet of Miracles, Grixis and Omni (with non-ape players). You'll get annihilated.
I'm all for innovation in Nic Fit, I've had some wacky brews myself, but claiming something as weak as this to be the be all and end all is a bit silly.
I'll ignore the bit about Jace not being good in a ramp control deck with Pernicious Deed.
EDIT for your edit
You heard of this little fellow called DRS? Yeah, he's kinda played a lot in Legacy. So are things like Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Daze, FoW, Red Elemental Blast (maindeck), Cabal Therapies, Thoughtseize...the list goes on.
And yes, reanimating some bomb isn't enough these days to close out a game on their own vs the current metagame. Or, against the decks that it is, like Omni or Delver you're not going to resolve this 'combo', Therapy or not. You're playing a 3cmc spell, then a 4cmc spell and expecting that to be fine?
When you combo out you combo out dude. That's like saying assuming you get to cast all 10 spells about a tendrils deck, or assuming all this resolves against omniscience. Once you combo, you combo.
First cabal therapy ALWAYS names Brainstorm in the blind. 5 discard spells, 3 demonic tutors, 4 intuitions. That's 12 cards that can utterly rip your opponents hand apart.Shredding hands into oblivion? Which those 5 discard spells in a format rampant with Brainstorm and SDT. Sure thing buddy.
I won't dignify the rest of your comment with an answer as I'm tired of your assumptions. Jace is good, but there are better cards you should use your slots for.
So now are combo deck needs another 2 cards (Witness & Nightmare). I mean sure, if we assemble voltron this sounds like a sweet thing to show somebody but your the one who keeps talking about "optimized" (your word) lists. I dont know where this is I do not play your deck than I cannot critique it culture came from but its not reality. I can tell you that the deck (as you have presented now both a rough list as well as the core idea) is not close to a good enough list. Its slow, reliant on a few cards, and requires quite a lot to go right.
If you disagree with running Jace due to a preference to play some kind of a combo over him I can understand that. However, that does not mean we can not maximize Jace. We have as good if not better tools to protect him (decay being uncounterable and deed being a proactive card you can play to force them to over commit) so I actually disagree that we are not using him as well as other decks. The fact we can also play him turn 3 with multiple discard spells prior, and that in some versions (mine for one) you can pair him with Lily is huge.
I view the "core" of nicfit as the vet therapy interaction. Nothing more. Deed may be replaced, kill cards, splash colors, etc. If you have those 2 cards people will refer to your deck as a nicfit variant. I run a bug version that plays 21 lands as a control deck. I use the interaction (and the probe therapy) to play a land light control deck that can draw a ton more gas as the game goes on. I use dig and jace as the draw engines. I havent played a ton in the last 2 months but I top 8'd an 8 round and have never not at least placed high enough for money back in the weekly 4 rounds that I have gone to.* I do know enough about Legacy to be able to comment on your decklist without wasting my time playing the list you fell in love with 2 years ago.
*For anyone that used to watch Meadhall legacy wed streams, they have changed payout back to cash so starting yesterday. Stream should be more consistent now. went 2-1-1. Lost to cloudpost, drew with cloudpost (in turns but I had jace at 5 and lily at 6 with force in hand) and beat burn. highlight was a 14/14 ooze against burn, and reanimating a glen elendra with the new Liliana. Which I had 1 in the board just to test. I brought it in mostly as a 2/3 lifelinker that can block guide and eidelon.
Duh, what on earth was I thinking!? Of course when you combo, you combo. How mindnumbingly stupid of me. Sorry, carry on goldfishing.
No, no it doesn't. As my avatar might show, I'm a big fan of the card. As matter would have it, it's my favourite card in the game! You don't snap name BS in the dark, there is so much more to it than that. Anyway, that's another topic for another day.
I actually played the palinchron bug fit 2 years ago. It was terrible then.
I'm not sure what your list looks like exactly, but I think in general that Nic Fit lists do not have enough space to play the number of counters required to let Jace impact the stack. It's nice that you can Brainstorm every turn but if you are drawing into pernicious deeds, liliana of the veil, abrupt decays and veteran explorers, how exactly are you going to beat omniscience? Or lands for that matter? Or even reanimator that can play Ashen Rider on your Jace and exile Liliana on the way out should you have BOTH in play. You will beat fair decks with your Jace, because you are drawing into permanent-based hate. Problem is, you'll be lacking in stack interactions and you don't have a truly broken play. That's why I'm running a very small reanimate package that I can summon up whenever I'm reading to go for it with so much selection. For only a 3 card combo package, I can seal the game most of the time. 3 cards, because Intuition is good enough without unburial rites (Krik doesn't play it). You will beat goyfs with your bug list im sure, heck, you might be fast enough for elves too which is impressive for bug control, but Jace will ultimately be too slow against decks that run the cantrip cartel. Fateseal has lost a lot of its strength with DTT/Ponder/Brainstorm/Probe. I'd rather accelerate into Iona on blue or green than drop a Jace.
Cabal is the best sac outlet for veteran explorer and you miss so mush if you don't have it. Sounds like you want to build a Bant Midrange deck and it need no Veteran Explorer.
Tbh, Perilous research IS a great card as well.
It is not played because it has to resolve to be able to sacrifice the explorer. What a shame !!!
I had a lot of nasty ideas involving Vet + Perilous + Scape back then... Sort of a RUG Scapeshift !
@ Thread:
I don't understand the hype around Probe + Therapy, unless you are running a deck including 4 ponder + 4 brainstorm (somehow) already.
From experience, here are some food for thoughts (and I remember having this conversation with Qweerios back then on this very thread):
1) It is really really difficult to evaluate an opening hand with a probe in it (except if it is Xmas and you have a Therapy+ black source)
2) The first probe is good. But the others are usually really low compared with Ponder.
3) Our main target is generally getting Therapy + Vet online. Ponder digs more than a Probe in this respect.
4) Overall you lose consistency by replacing Ponder by Probe, from a pure statistical point of view. Probe + Therapy is fantastic but it does not occur on a large basis to make it reliable except if your deck is a cantrip.deck
Can someone enlighten me ? Or is this all about that Grixis Control deck with 12 - 16 cantrips (with "Thought Scour" to mess with opposing BS) ?
Its sad this thread has gotten two pages of action off some wonky untested palincron homebrew but legitimate topics like the correct ratio of stoneforge to equipment, is teeg #2 better then gsz #4 in the current meta or the mentor/top interaction get no attention.
@Ralf -I run 4 probe because I like hitting with therapy for sure on turn 1/2 and I run 3 Digs. I am also not totally sold on it. If you do not like it fine, but I know I have answered the WHY I play it a few times. Whether you think that is worth it or not is still up for debate. you are also not wrong that probe hands are tougher to decide on keeping. The ability to turn Therapy into 100% hit in matchups like omni and miracles early is very powerful. Late game it is just a redraw so the downside as I see it is more on the deck space thing. I amrunning 4 bs, 2 snap, 3 dig, 3 jace and 4 probe so I can sometimes see the idea that there is too much draw and not enough gas. The deck is very consistent however so the question of balance is certainly there.
uncletiggy- Nobody is stopping you or others from teeg or sfm discussions. I personally have very little to say about junk versions as I do not play them. I would run only sofai/bskull if Iwas in a junk with sfm. I also would run a second teeg but without a list I do not know if a 4th gsz would be there. I try to stick the the deck versions I know and have played more which is bug and jund. The discussion was not only over a shitty homebrew but intution in general (which tbh is probably an ok card to consider)and jace and dig in BUG. If people have specific questions I am more than happy to help out. I have been more free for magic and other stuff nowadays.
What's funny is that I generally think that your assessment of which blue cards are strong in nic fit is similar to mine. From our experience, Probe is a house in Nic Fit. At this stage I'd probably replace a couple of things from the list I mentioned such as the recurring nightmare and some other things, but the unburial rites / intuition package I'd keep in. I mean, its been 2 years.
In case anyone was curious, I did not play legacy at Eternal Weekend and just jammed a bunch of vintage instead. Firepaw was present and on the same plan; I don't know who all else was in attendance, but I'm sure a couple of you made and I didn't know.
Got crushed personally, but the 2nd place finisher in the vintage main event is a friend of mine who was using my exact 76. Randy Buehler gushing on stream about Mikokoro for 10 minutes straight entirely my fault -- you can bless me or curse me for that; both options are probably valid in roughly equal measures.
Not sure how Firepaw did in the main, although I do know he was running pretty hot on the weekend whenever I talked to him. We also jammed vintage for like 3 hours Saturday morning and he had Library on the draw at least 60% of his games, so I'm guessing he did fine.
He was on Prodigy Gifts and I was on my Thieves, ofc.
Hopefully I'll see more of you at Eternal Weekend playing vintage next year -- and, of course, hopefully I'll / we'll actually be playing legacy regularly again by then. I don't even care what changes happen in this format at the moment as long as -something- changes.
I agree that vintage is in a really great spot right now. Shops being such a large % of the field, and being an annoying deck to play against can suck but in general I really like where it is at. I also play grixis thieves when I play. I have tested some gifts variants but I just could never get a list that really felt great. Awesome that your buddy was able play that card, I do love it!
As for legacy, I like it too. Since the format has been around their really has always been a tier 1 of 3/4 decks that people say "if you are not playing this why bother" but in locals I still see 15 different decks out of 20 ppl tournies so I am fine with it. I have actually gotten into modern a bit more lately (on Esper Mentor) and it really reinforces why I like legacy, and legacy with cantrips, but to each their own I guess. I am not sure what actual Data Wotc uses to decide on bannings or if they do use data or its just a feel thing but I imagine we might see some type of banning along with an unrestriction. Not that the unrestriction is going to be a card that does anything... that is unless they forget how stupid busted SOTF is. Then this thread could rejoice and begin brewing for the anti-SOTF Survival deck ha!
The intuition discussion has made me think about trying to include some type of compact combo in my bug list. Will think on this...
For legacy, I just want one thing. It's very simple. I want a format where RUG Delver is a deck again. I'm not a part of the "ban cantrips" brigade, although I do think that Dig pushes cantrips into an unhealthy extreme. I like interactive games and interactive formats. RUG Delver always has "those draws," but overall I think that that deck being good is a sign of a healthy format. RUG Delver not even existing right now is a symptom of an unhealthy format. I like the format still and do wish to play it (in fact I'm probably playing at Mythic this weekend, but that's more because I want to go to Mythic and hang with friends than because I want to actually play legacy). I'm just stone tired of this Omnitell/Miracles bullshit. Give me an interactive format, please.
Modern....yeah, no. If they ever unban Thopter/Sword I might actually play the format, but I think it's going to take exactly that happening to even get me to POSSIBLY care.
I've been calling a Mind Twist unbanning for a while now, and I still think it's on the table. Unfortunately, it wouldn't even help us at this point unless it's accompanied by a Dig Through Time banning. Survival is obviously the nut high. I both think Survival is a viable unban if they're not going to ban anything, and also that they won't actually unban it, so the point is moot.
Survival's biggest fault, ironically, is being too well designed and too fun. The only reason the card had to be banned was because everyone would just rather play Survival than try to beat it, because the deck is just too goddamn fun. It could be beaten then, and it can be beaten now. I still don't think WotC will actually pull that trigger.
If you held a gun to my head I'd say we're probably a month away from a Dig Through Time ban and something stupid and innocuous like a Memory Jar or Black Vise unban.
At least Modern is balanced. It doesn't have 1 or 2 decks destroying everything else.
@Arianrhod- If you ban smth to hurt the blue decks its for sure Dig. There is always the ban brainstorm crowd but I am of the opinion that dig is a huge incentive to play cantrips just as cruise was. They lend themselves to different decks but when cruise was banned and dig wasnt I figured that dig was going to be just as played but the variety of decks because it lends itself to both more styles of decks where cruise clearly had 1 deck that was above the rest.
There are a few unbans that would most likely lead to nothing new in the format (earthcraft and twist would probably be fine) and a few that would be influential in the format (bargain & vise) with SOTF being a new tier 1 deck.
@modern format- It is fine for what it is, its not legacy light but better standard. If you think that format is fine then great, go play it but I do not believe it is healthier nor is it for me more enjoyable than legacy.
@tilzinger -Legacy has 2 decks that destroy everything else? Which? miracles that had 0 Top 8 and 5 Top 32? Omni-tell? grixis/4C delver that just recently became a big thing? Btw, I see you are in Mpls, what stores do you play in for legacy?
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