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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

  1. #21
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mapson View Post
    Great job on this primer Kevin. I completely want to try the culling the weak version you mentioned everyone is too scared to do. It sounds amazing. I don't necessarily mean good amazing but like an absolute blast. I already have some ideas floating in my head but do you have any more advice on where to start?
    Definitely things that net X-for-1 advantages. If you're exploding to that extent, you're spending a lot of cards to do it. A Primeval Titan is definitely a good start (since you can Zenith for Primeval on t2 or just flat cast him on t2 with Therapy backup). If you want to go full ham, you could run a Depths/Stage to get with it, representing a potential turn 3 Merit Lage -> turn 4 kill. I would rather get two 'actual lands' with varying amounts of utility, though, because that would help recoup the cards that you spent and really slingshot you ahead to where you can just cast other things (t1 land + t2 land + 2 explorer lands + 2 titan lands + t3 land drop = 7 lands on turn 3).

    I'd specifically look for B or G creatures (or BG) that have strong CiP triggers. I know Liliana's Specter exists, but if there's something else with an actual Mind Rot stapled to it, that would be considerable. The black Exarch is reasonable to consider -- either Duresses or raise deads Veteran Explorer when it CiP. I feel like Redcap is a little too low impact, but it would also be "okay."

    Alternatively you can be a complete troll and run something like Death Cloud =)

  2. #22
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    I wouldn't try to play fair with that engine- there's a very all-in storm deck that exists with it, which i think is likely stronger than the nic fit deck that tries to be more explosive by playing Culling- more consistent perhaps, though I would never apply the word "consistent" to Veteran Explorer storm. Adding more dead late-game draws to your deck whose nut draw is "only" a turn 3-4 Marit Lage attack doesn't sound good to me; I'd rather just play that turbo-depths list that was floating around the SCG circuit a few months ago. The storm deck has a sweet sideboard plan of morphing into a deck that turbos out Demigods of Revenge and Phyrexian Obliterators against storm hate though, so that's cool.

    I'm still here and still trying to play nic fit, trying to settle on a variant I like for the upcoming GP if I can- the shift in the blue decks that Kevin has been discussing has made Scapewish an unattractive option for me, so I'm going to try his BUG list and see what changes can be made to help it close out games. It's definitely sweet and looks like the deck that attracted me to the archetype in the first place. I might tinker around with some BG fit if that doesn't work for me.

  3. #23
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quick question: Would any of ya recommend the following package in a Junk Fit list?:

    3 Mangara of Corondor
    2 Karakas
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Volrath's Stronghold

    The main gist is to assemble a board lock by recurring Mangara with either The Two Towers or Karakas. However, I have doubts about its effectiveness without Aether Vial.

  4. #24

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Hello Friends,

    I haven’t really posted here before but I figured since nobody has been posting about their Scapewish testing I might as well. My store has weekly Legacy tournaments that last week I started going to and there was an IQ yesterday. I figured I would give a quick rundown of the games and the list and see what ya think. I don’t really take detailed notes so this is all from memory, forgive the shortness. First here’s the list I ran at the local event:

    2 Huntmaster of the Fells
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Primeval Titan
    2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    2 Thragtusk
    4 Veteran Explorer
    2 Wood Elves
    Creatures [15]
    2 Abrupt Decay
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Pernicious Deed
    2 Scapeshift
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    Spells [22]
    3 Badlands
    2 Bayou
    3 Forest
    2 Mountain
    2 Stomping Ground
    2 Swamp
    4 Taiga
    2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    Lands [24]
    SIDEBOARD
    1 Gaze of Granite
    1 Innocent Blood
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    1 Massacre
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Pyroclasm
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Scapeshift
    3 Slaughter Games
    3 Thoughtseize


    Pretty Standard. I wanted some more interaction so I have the 2 decay’s main and they have been fantastic, but we will get to that.

    Weekly Event:
    Round 1 Mono red Painter:

    G1: I should not have won this game at all BUT I had prior knowledge and a Cabal therapy/Explorer hand on the play so I did. I T1 Cabal Painters servant and he reveals Painter, REB, REB, Pyroblast, Tomb, Tomb, Mountain. Gotcha! Next turn I get both REB’s off an explorer and Combo him a few turns later.
    G2:. Turn 1 painter, I play a forest and pass, he spirit Guides and REB’s forest. Combo’s 2 turns later.
    G3. I strip his hand of a painter and 2 chandra’s while ramping. He plays Koth for preasure, revoker on Deed, and then Blood moon. Turn before I die I decay his moon and wish for a lethal shift.

    1-0

    Round 2 Werewolf Stompy:
    I honestly don’t remember much of these 2 games. I play basics and without a turn one chalice on the play we established he really can’t win. We played a couple just for fun games after and including the 2 games I won in the tourney I was 5-0 versus with very few games being even close (they were fun though).

    2-0

    Round 3 R/u Delver (Burn focused)
    G1: He does not have a T1 creature and I start ramping with Sakura and wood elves as he throws bolts at me. He hits a guide but it was a little to late. I therapy his force and pierce and shift him.
    G2: This time he has a Delver and a guide early. I end up wiping them with a deed but not before I hit the ever so nice 3 life. I GSZ for tusk and he bolts me with the trigger on the stack.
    G3: He has a guide again but my tribe elder takes a hit and my huntmaster and token trade for the guide and a bolt. He applys more preasure with a delver and another guide but my Ooze and 2nd huntmaster prove to be too much.

    3-0

    I was very happy with the list and with 1 minor change to the main I was pumped to play in the IQ.
    -1 Scavenging Ooze
    +1 Huntmaster (Card is just too good)

    SCG IQ
    Round 1 Death and taxes
    G1: He wins the roll and leads with plains, I have a bayou into explorer. He plays a plains into thalia. Now that I am 100% sure he is on D&T I play a forest and therapy Mindcensor. He show me Mindcensor (ding!), crusader, Flicker, revoker, plains. He untaps and slams crusader. I flashback therapy on revoker (sacing explorer) and play a top with fetch up. He peels a Stoneforge and slams down a Sword of F&I. I spin top into Thragtusk and draw it. I then play a sakura tribe elder. He suits up his crusader and swing for lethal (crusader is nuts) but I have a decay for the sword. He plays revoker forcing me to crack elder and spin top. I find a wish with a land in hand and shift him.
    G2: He goes plains into mom. I have an explorer. He then plays Rest in peace, ouch. I slowly ramp with wood elves and decay the RIP while blocking with explorer as he established 2 revokers (1 on top and the other on deed), a thalia, and a stoneforge (which gets batterskull. With nothing but batterskull in hand I wish for massacre and eventually draw another wish for scapeshift.

    1-0

    Round 2: RUG delver
    Nothing particularly exciting happened in these games. I played around stifle and sniped his blue cards for force both games. Unless Rug has a bunch of goyf’s/wastes/stifles I don’t really see us losing.

    2-0

    Round 3 Shardless Bant
    G1: He kept a triple brainstorm hand with 1 island and a bunch of good cards. He did not see another land till turn 4 and I therapyed his force.
    G2: I stripped his threats with therapy and eventually we both were topdecking. He peeled top and agent into foundry. I drew pernicious deed. He accidently stacked his triggers wrong and sacked his top to foundry. A few lands later I hit a wish into scapeshift.

    An interesting side note, he was friends with the guy who “invented the deck” Kevin McKee so he knew the matchup pretty well.

    3-0

    Round 4 4 color delver
    DRAW

    I did not have to draw this round, I could have played for placement but I was hungry and he was a friend. We play for fun a decent bit and he is terrified of the matchup. It is pretty hard for him.

    Round 5 4 color Punishing Maverick
    DRAW into Top 8

    Again, could have played but no need. Played some EDH and cheered for friends.

    Top Eight
    3rd place

    Quarterfinals UW/r Miracles 3rd versus 6th
    G1: He spends the first 2 turns brainstorming, I curve Sakura into wish, Which he lets resolve, and fetch slaughter games. I slaughter his force thinking I can force a quick scapeshift through and he uses that time to force a Jace through. He brainstorms till he has counterspell in hand with counterbalance on board with top. He also Cliques me. I super die.
    G2: I tear his hand apart and slaughter on Jace. He slams blood moon to stall when I only have a forest and a bunch of duels. Unfortunately he only has an Island and is unable to beat my huntmaster.
    G3: On the draw I curve Sakura into Slaughter on Jace Slaughter on Entreat. Felt good to lock the Miracles deck out of the game. He is left with snapcasters and cliques as win conditions. After like 15 turns of me drawing threats and him drawing counters (no joke he drew 3 forces in a row as I drew 3 threats, it was really fun) I eventually Scapeshift him.


    We decided to split the money and packs and the 2 people who could go to the invi would play for the invite. Given that all the matches in the top four were scary (U/R delver, U/G Infect, 4 color Maverick with dark depths) I was happy with the split.
    Overall I loved the deck. It was a BLAST to play. Having a way to just instantly close the game in scapeshift is just wonderful. After the event and watching the SCG the one change I would make is to fit some Sudden Shocks in the side. They are really good versus infect and all the creature decks. I would probs do –1 REB -1 Gaze +2 Sudden shocks to make the final list look like:

    3 Huntmaster of the Fells
    1 Primeval Titan
    2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    1 Thragtusk
    4 Veteran Explorer
    2 Wood Elves
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    Creatures [15]
    2 Abrupt Decay
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Pernicious Deed
    2 Scapeshift
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    Spells [22]
    3 Badlands
    2 Bayou
    3 Forest
    2 Mountain
    2 Stomping Ground
    2 Swamp
    4 Taiga
    2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    Lands [24]
    SIDEBOARD
    2 Sudden Shock
    1 Innocent Blood
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    1 Massacre
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Scapeshift
    3 Slaughter Games
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Gaze of Granite

    Let me know your comments and suggestions!
    Last edited by Surfkatt; 09-19-2014 at 07:55 PM.

  5. #25

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Awesome primer Kevin! :)

    I really would like to play Nic Fit and a GBW control version. I play in a semi-competive environment, all kinds of decks are represented in the Aggro, Control and Combo categories (more than 30 different decks). Any help will be highly appreciated.

    The Thunian Fit I found very appealing, but as you say, it has some problems in the metagame today and are not recommended. When KTK is released, how to you see the Siege Rhino in this deck. How many and what will it replace? Also what other changes would you suggest to it, other than changing two Pithing Needle in the SB for two Phyrexian Revoker? Many thanks in advance!

    Thunian Fit (nee Rector)

    Arianrhod's latest list (9/10/14):

    4 Veteran Explorer
    1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
    2 Spike Feeder
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    2 Academy Rector
    1 Master of the Wild Hunt
    1 Spike Weaver
    2 Archangel of Thune
    1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Sun Titan

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Council's Judgment
    1 Toxic Deluge

    2 Abrupt Decay

    3 Pernicious Deed
    1 Whip of Erebos

    3 Sensei's Divining Top

    3 Windswept Heath
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Bayou
    2 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    3 Forest
    2 Plains
    2 Swamp
    1 Karakas
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Gavony Township

    sb::
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Aven Mindcensor
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Tsunami
    2 Baneslayer Angel
    2 Pithing Needle

  6. #26
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Its about time I dropped a line in here. Been too long.
    First off excellent primer Kevin.

    I havent had much time to play Legacy tournaments the last couple of months due to personal obligations. I do however play allot using Cockatrice. Not that that's really worth mentioning since Cockatrice has the same problem MWS used to have: bad opponents.
    And even then I've played allot of different non NicFit decks.
    The only NicFit I've been messing around with it's McDarby's Superfriends list. Not that its particularly good but its just loads of fun to play. I saw him play a similar list on a SCG stream somewhere and afterwards he wrote an article. Just loved that!

    Of course I've tweaked the list to my personal liking cutting a Jace (since I own only 3 if I even want to play the list IRL) and adding Kiora.
    Right now I'm running 3 jace, 3 liliana, 2 kiora, 2 karn. Kiora is really good at stalling and insane whenever you get to ultimate her. Getting there however is really challenging. And perhaps Karn need to replaced by the new Garruk.
    I've replaced the Probes with SDT and Baleful Strix.

    Overall it's a great list if you face fair decks all day. It struggles against combo (but that goes for most NicFit decks) but the SB is just filled to the rim with combohate.

    RIght now I'm dying to try Kevins new BUG list (I refuse to call it Sultai...)

  7. #27
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    @Starchild:

    This is where I'm at for post-Khans Thune:

    4 Veteran Explorer
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
    1 Eternal Witness
    2 Spike Feeder
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    2 Siege Rhino
    1 Spike Weaver
    2 Archangel of Thune
    1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Sun Titan

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Council's Judgment

    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Abzan Charm

    3 Pernicious Deed
    1 Recurring Nightmare

    3 Sensei's Divining Top

    3 Windswept Heath
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Marsh Flats
    3 Bayou
    2 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    3 Forest
    2 Plains
    2 Swamp
    1 Karakas
    1 Phyrexian Tower

    (no sb pending meta shifts)

    Siege Rhino is ridiculous. Whether it's in 3-of territory remains to be seen. I do think that Abzan Charm is a card that a lot of people are sleeping on in general, but it's particular suited to this deck. It exiles Delvers, Goyfs, and everything beyond, while also acting as either a combat trick OR a Spike trick to put on counters at instant speed (note that Spike Feeder can turn Abzan Charm into a 4-point lifegain). Furthermore, situations where you don't want either of these modes, it's still a Night's Whisper.

    While I don't consider it necessarily better than CJ or Decay, I do think that it will occupy a proud 2-of slot moving forward.

    Rectors are simply not good enough anymore most of the time. If we get a fixed (enchantment) YawgBargain or something similarly busted, I may revisit her...but until then, that whole package is coming out.

    This means Varolz gets ditched. While the Varolz + Sigarda synergy was pretty real, Abzan Charm fills this role almost as well. Without Rector, I don't think it's worth running the Zenithable sac outlet.

    ScavOoze is a card I ferociously hate, but I can't deny the synergy that it has with Thune itself or the random matches that you'll win just by having it in your deck. With the full 4 Zeniths, in particular, I think Ooze probably does justify its slot, no matter how much I'm aggravated by that decision.

    Gavony Township isn't good enough without Primeval, which got cut a while ago. Its slot is currently a Marsh Flats, but I could be persuaded into almost any -color producing- utility land. Gavony being colorless periodically shot me in the foot, and I want to avoid a colorless solution.

    Anafenza is on my short list for a slot. It is possible without the Rectors that Courser isn't good enough on its own, but I'm going to test with Courser still present, because that card is prettttttttty real. That said, I do want to at least try an Anafenza: she's good graveyard hate, she's very fat for 3 mana, and she offers more Spike / Sigarda synergy. If she doesn't work out and/or if Rhino is as nuts as I think it is, I will consider using this slot for a 3rd Rhino.

    I would be remiss if I didn't mention that with the advent of the Rhino, I've been debating cutting Thragtusk. While Thrag gains 2 additional life and also leaves behind a 3/3 on his way out, the Rhino is overall just a better card. It matches up much better vs Goyf and TNN, and it actively clocks them while simultaneously gaining you 1 turn's worth of life while ALSO being 1-mana cheaper.

    I don't know what I would put in this slot. Maybe I'd just go really deep in the tank and run the full playset of Rhinos. I'm pretty horny for that card.

    ....I think I'll close with that pun. My job here is done.

  8. #28
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    This means Varolz gets ditched. While the Varolz + Sigarda synergy was pretty real, Abzan Charm fills this role almost as well. Without Rector, I don't think it's worth running the Zenithable sac outlet.

    ScavOoze is a card I ferociously hate, but I can't deny the synergy that it has with Thune itself or the random matches that you'll win just by having it in your deck. With the full 4 Zeniths, in particular, I think Ooze probably does justify its slot, no matter how much I'm aggravated by that decision.

    Anafenza is on my short list for a slot. It is possible without the Rectors that Courser isn't good enough on its own, but I'm going to test with Courser still present, because that card is prettttttttty real. That said, I do want to at least try an Anafenza: she's good graveyard hate, she's very fat for 3 mana, and she offers more Spike / Sigarda synergy. If she doesn't work out and/or if Rhino is as nuts as I think it is, I will consider using this slot for a 3rd Rhino.

    I would be remiss if I didn't mention that with the advent of the Rhino, I've been debating cutting Thragtusk. While Thrag gains 2 additional life and also leaves behind a 3/3 on his way out, the Rhino is overall just a better card. It matches up much better vs Goyf and TNN, and it actively clocks them while simultaneously gaining you 1 turn's worth of life while ALSO being 1-mana cheaper.

    I don't know what I would put in this slot. Maybe I'd just go really deep in the tank and run the full playset of Rhinos. I'm pretty horny for that card.

    ....I think I'll close with that pun. My job here is done.
    /Barn for
    1) Scavenging ooze
    2) I thought I was the only one to actually think Anafenza could have some potential
    3) Rhino is f.cking real. Pretty impressed by the guy so far in testing.
    4) Gavony was/is cute.

  9. #29

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    @Starchild:

    This is where I'm at for post-Khans Thune:

    4 Veteran Explorer
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
    1 Eternal Witness
    2 Spike Feeder
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    2 Siege Rhino
    1 Spike Weaver
    2 Archangel of Thune
    1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Sun Titan

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Council's Judgment

    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Abzan Charm

    3 Pernicious Deed
    1 Recurring Nightmare

    3 Sensei's Divining Top

    3 Windswept Heath
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Marsh Flats
    3 Bayou
    2 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    3 Forest
    2 Plains
    2 Swamp
    1 Karakas
    1 Phyrexian Tower

    (no sb pending meta shifts)

    Siege Rhino is ridiculous. Whether it's in 3-of territory remains to be seen. I do think that Abzan Charm is a card that a lot of people are sleeping on in general, but it's particular suited to this deck. It exiles Delvers, Goyfs, and everything beyond, while also acting as either a combat trick OR a Spike trick to put on counters at instant speed (note that Spike Feeder can turn Abzan Charm into a 4-point lifegain). Furthermore, situations where you don't want either of these modes, it's still a Night's Whisper.

    While I don't consider it necessarily better than CJ or Decay, I do think that it will occupy a proud 2-of slot moving forward.

    Rectors are simply not good enough anymore most of the time. If we get a fixed (enchantment) YawgBargain or something similarly busted, I may revisit her...but until then, that whole package is coming out.

    This means Varolz gets ditched. While the Varolz + Sigarda synergy was pretty real, Abzan Charm fills this role almost as well. Without Rector, I don't think it's worth running the Zenithable sac outlet.

    ScavOoze is a card I ferociously hate, but I can't deny the synergy that it has with Thune itself or the random matches that you'll win just by having it in your deck. With the full 4 Zeniths, in particular, I think Ooze probably does justify its slot, no matter how much I'm aggravated by that decision.

    Gavony Township isn't good enough without Primeval, which got cut a while ago. Its slot is currently a Marsh Flats, but I could be persuaded into almost any -color producing- utility land. Gavony being colorless periodically shot me in the foot, and I want to avoid a colorless solution.

    Anafenza is on my short list for a slot. It is possible without the Rectors that Courser isn't good enough on its own, but I'm going to test with Courser still present, because that card is prettttttttty real. That said, I do want to at least try an Anafenza: she's good graveyard hate, she's very fat for 3 mana, and she offers more Spike / Sigarda synergy. If she doesn't work out and/or if Rhino is as nuts as I think it is, I will consider using this slot for a 3rd Rhino.

    I would be remiss if I didn't mention that with the advent of the Rhino, I've been debating cutting Thragtusk. While Thrag gains 2 additional life and also leaves behind a 3/3 on his way out, the Rhino is overall just a better card. It matches up much better vs Goyf and TNN, and it actively clocks them while simultaneously gaining you 1 turn's worth of life while ALSO being 1-mana cheaper.

    I don't know what I would put in this slot. Maybe I'd just go really deep in the tank and run the full playset of Rhinos. I'm pretty horny for that card.

    ....I think I'll close with that pun. My job here is done.
    Thank a lot! Awesome feedback :) Me to has high hopes for the Rhino...multiples ;) Anafenza, I hope she turn out to be worth a slot too. Look forward to see what this deck turns out to be after KTK is released.

  10. #30
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Welcome to the Ooze Fan Club Kevin! we've been waiting.

    Also, agreed, rhino has been very strong in testing thus far in my Pod list. It's almost worth running Abzan colors solely on the back of Rhino's power level.

  11. #31
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Rhino seems awesome. Does anyone run restoration angel in their list? I could see a list with more ETB effects and like 3 angels with a couple of rhinos being fairly sweet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  12. #32
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    I'm not exactly sold on Rhino, but that's mostly because I feel Swagtusk is still one of the best anti-control cards available to use while still being usable in the tempo matchup (combo, as always, is a nightmare).

    Also, I've been testing the following list on cockatrice. So far I've played against Rock with Hymns and a hybrid of MUD and UR Painter (by that I mean it had a stompy manabase, ran Chalices, EE, Blood Moon, Force of Will, and Wurmcoil Engine) that for some reason had Tinker main deck. The former I lost pretty badly too after being hellbent from Liliana and Hymns, but the second one I lost one game, won the next thanks to Mangara lock and proper sequencing.

    61 Main
    4 Veteran Explorer
    3 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    2 Eternal Witness
    3 Mangara of Corondor
    2 Thragtusk
    1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
    1 Primeval Titan
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Diabolic Intent
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Pernicious Deed
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Council's Judgment
    4 Verdant Catacomb
    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Bayou
    2 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    2 Forest
    2 Plains
    2 Swamp
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    2 Karakas

    10 Side
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Karakas

  13. #33
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner View Post
    I'm not exactly sold on Rhino, but that's mostly because I feel Swagtusk is still one of the best anti-control cards available to use while still being usable in the tempo matchup (combo, as always, is a nightmare).

    Also, I've been testing the following list on cockatrice. So far I've played against Rock with Hymns and a hybrid of MUD and UR Painter (by that I mean it had a stompy manabase, ran Chalices, EE, Blood Moon, Force of Will, and Wurmcoil Engine) that for some reason had Tinker main deck. The former I lost pretty badly too after being hellbent from Liliana and Hymns, but the second one I lost one game, won the next thanks to Mangara lock and proper sequencing.

    61 Main
    4 Veteran Explorer
    3 Deathrite Shaman
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    2 Eternal Witness
    3 Mangara of Corondor
    2 Thragtusk
    1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
    1 Primeval Titan
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Diabolic Intent
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Pernicious Deed
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Council's Judgment
    4 Verdant Catacomb
    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Bayou
    2 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    2 Forest
    2 Plains
    2 Swamp
    1 Phyrexian Tower
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    2 Karakas

    10 Side
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Karakas
    I have already suggested Mangara in an abzan wish version.
    Unfortunately I wouldn't go THAT deep on the guy itself.
    Don't get me wrong, he is nice and all but I feel that you lose a lot of its power from not having access to vial.
    This guy shines with vial, he is just good otherwise.

    Anyway, as I always encourage innovations here are a few comments you may consider:

    1) I would play Gaddock MD. Why ?
    Gaddock is like scavenging ooze in certain MU. If you live long enough (T3 with GSZ), he is a hard lock that wins the first game for you as affected combo decks usually have no answers to him pre board (e.g ANT). Priceless.

    2) Primeval/Mangara/Karakas
    You should also play a 1-of Knight of the Reliquary. Cheaper than Primeval when going for the GSZ route, it also speeds up by a lot your lock engine.

    3) Sylvan safekeeper
    I know, we are not maverick but Mangara without vial demands protection. Combined with other creatures (such as Teeg) it provides you other lock engine (GG vs miracle when you have Teeg + him on the field)

    4) Replace Tusk by Rhino.
    25 games (Delver decks, miracles, Jund, DGA) so far with him on my side. Kevin must have done about the same, even (maybe) more. Here are my first conclusions:
    - Better than Tusk in fair games. It comes down sooner and "instant" Rhino's life gap (6) > Tusk (5). Tusk (8 life gains if I use Kevin's life computation) is better if you have to tank 2 turns.
    - Equals/better than tusk in control MU. That was my main concern as I was afraid that the missing LBT (leave the battlefield trigger) could be a huge issue. For now, it is not and I'm rather glad of its "take 3 to the dome".
    - Cheaper. Actually, this is the real deal, here. We play legacy and 4 mana is nowhere near 5. I saved my arses a bunch of time because I could actually cast him where I would have died with not being able to play Tusk.

    Well 25 games is kind of low. Only time will tell.

    5) Linvala
    Like Teeg, she is a must. I even think that Abzan Fit list should always at least play 1.

    6) Cut DRS.
    Your deck is not designed to win as fast as an abzan SFM based list. DRS is never useless but in your list, I feel like he is lacking.

    I hope this will give you food !!!

    Happy testing.

  14. #34
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    If some Rhinos are the real deal for GBW Nic Fit now, we can also troll against Liliana/Hymn Decks (BUG; Jund; Pox etc.) with 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege as a Sideboard-Tech for more "Ups i win" moments.

    For me i will still play with 1 Tusk to curve out and have one more Option against Miracle.

    I played only Punishing, BUG-Pod and a little bit Scapeshift, how good is GBW (Junk/Abzan) against Miracle? My only hope here is slam a bomb every turn and disrupt with discard/decay/deed if possible.

    I like Arianrhods Test Build, with some minor changes here and there:

    +1 Abrupt Decay
    -1 Abzan Charm
    Maybe wrong, because i like flexible charms and i also used Jund Charm in a Punishing shell in the good old days. Otherwise Decay is also very flexible and sometimes it matters that it cost only 2 mana and/or you need only 2 colors and sometimes you will/must destroy something against a hand of counters.

    +1 Gaddock Teeg
    -Selvala, Explorer Returned
    As Ralf mentioned: with GBW i want at least one out against Combo G1 - and with Karakas/Therapy/Tower you can get rid of Teeg if he blocks Zenith (or Walkers).

    Unsure about Spike Weaver - never testet him - cause i never played GBW Builds. Maybe it is a slot for Garruk Relentless, or Linvala as Ralf mentioned, or something else. What i like on paper is, that Weaver can buy some turns, if you face a deadly situation like Griselbanned, Entreat-Army or a 20/20-Land-Token .
    TEAM MtG Berlin

  15. #35
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by MD.Ghost View Post
    Unsure about Spike Weaver - never testet him - cause i never played GBW Builds. Maybe it is a slot for Garruk Relentless, or Linvala as Ralf mentioned, or something else. What i like on paper is, that Weaver can buy some turns, if you face a deadly situation like Griselbanned, Entreat-Army or a 20/20-Land-Token .
    Against Elves, weaver could also be nice but it is very "slow" (I have tested him in the past).
    Abzan Fit is, unfortunately, weak to Miracle. Tusk won't be the big deal. But a mangara lock on white mana will win you many games (or either Teeg + Sylvan as I suggested)

  16. #36

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfkatt View Post
    Hello Friends,

    I haven’t really posted here before but I figured since nobody has been posting about their Scapewish testing I might as well. My store has weekly Legacy tournaments that last week I started going to and there was an IQ yesterday. I figured I would give a quick rundown of the games and the list and see what ya think. I don’t really take detailed notes so this is all from memory, forgive the shortness. First here’s the list I ran at the local event:

    2 Huntmaster of the Fells
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Primeval Titan
    2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    2 Thragtusk
    4 Veteran Explorer
    2 Wood Elves
    Creatures [15]
    2 Abrupt Decay
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Pernicious Deed
    2 Scapeshift
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    Spells [22]
    3 Badlands
    2 Bayou
    3 Forest
    2 Mountain
    2 Stomping Ground
    2 Swamp
    4 Taiga
    2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    Lands [24]
    SIDEBOARD
    1 Gaze of Granite
    1 Innocent Blood
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    1 Massacre
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Pyroclasm
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Scapeshift
    3 Slaughter Games
    3 Thoughtseize

    How has your miracles matchup been with that configuration? how often did you find yourself wishing for gaze over wanting a toxic deluge?

  17. #37
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by MD.Ghost View Post
    If some Rhinos are the real deal for GBW Nic Fit now, we can also troll against Liliana/Hymn Decks (BUG; Jund; Pox etc.) with 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege as a Sideboard-Tech for more "Ups i win" moments.

    For me i will still play with 1 Tusk to curve out and have one more Option against Miracle.

    I played only Punishing, BUG-Pod and a little bit Scapeshift, how good is GBW (Junk/Abzan) against Miracle? My only hope here is slam a bomb every turn and disrupt with discard/decay/deed if possible.

    I like Arianrhods Test Build, with some minor changes here and there:

    +1 Abrupt Decay
    -1 Abzan Charm
    Maybe wrong, because i like flexible charms and i also used Jund Charm in a Punishing shell in the good old days. Otherwise Decay is also very flexible and sometimes it matters that it cost only 2 mana and/or you need only 2 colors and sometimes you will/must destroy something against a hand of counters.

    +1 Gaddock Teeg
    -Selvala, Explorer Returned
    As Ralf mentioned: with GBW i want at least one out against Combo G1 - and with Karakas/Therapy/Tower you can get rid of Teeg if he blocks Zenith (or Walkers).

    Unsure about Spike Weaver - never testet him - cause i never played GBW Builds. Maybe it is a slot for Garruk Relentless, or Linvala as Ralf mentioned, or something else. What i like on paper is, that Weaver can buy some turns, if you face a deadly situation like Griselbanned, Entreat-Army or a 20/20-Land-Token .
    The third Decay over the 2nd Charm might be correct (especially since it opens a sideboard slot). I'm still going to test for a while with the 2nd Charm, though, because the combat trick mode is surprisingly relevant to this deck. It tricks, accelerates your clock, and protects your combo from removal on the Spike.

    I wouldn't touch Selvala. I can respect putting Teeg in the list somewhere, although I disagree with it. But Selvala is not the slot.

    The problem with Teeg is that most of our knock-out punches are 4 or more mana. I have lost games vs combo because I have a Teeg in play and couldn't cast Tsunami/Nether Void/etc. Hell, I've lost games -game one- against combo when I have Teeg in play because I flood out on Zeniths and can't get any additional clock into play, which gives them all the time in the world to answer Teeg.

    It could be that it would be better to just move all of the combo hate to lower cmc things and and just play the junk style of vs combo where you have some cheap disruption and some bears and you hope that they don't get there. I dunno.

    Weaver is hilariously relevant. I did not think that he was going to be as nuts as he is. He's won me games vs reanimator by stalling long enough for me to Deed his Griselbrand. Let that sink in for a moment. While he is likely weaker without the Gavony + Varolz (although he does have Charms to feed him now if need be), his utility is still insane -- and, at a 3/3, he's not the smallest creature in the deck. Sometimes you just need a hill giant.

    --------

    I'm strongly considering going back to Thune for the Grand Prix. Thune is very good against random decks and budget decks like Burn that you can reasonably expect to play there. While it does suffer vs Miracles somewhat and it doesn't have BUG's virtual bye against Shardless decks, it does gain percentage points vs Jund which BUG has been struggling with, as well as the aforementioned burn and random.dec. Scape is probably actually in a fairly good position for a Grand Prix metagame, too, although I would be hesitant about playing it in a 40duals or similar.

    Nic Fit has been called a metagame predator many times in the past. While I disagree with the assessment that all Nic Fit varieties must NECESSARILY be metagame predators, I do agree that the BUG list that I've been working on lately is one. It ruthlessly smashes Shardless, is favored against Miracles, has the usual Nic Fit matchup vs Delver, and it has to fucking -work- for anything else. That isn't to say that it can't beat other things...but I would be highly skeptical of taking it into a Grand Prix room. Starcity would probably be fine if you can escape the first couple of rounds unharmed, but you're just playing roulette with the pairings.

  18. #38
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    I have already suggested Mangara in an abzan wish version.
    Unfortunately I wouldn't go THAT deep on the guy itself.
    Don't get me wrong, he is nice and all but I feel that you lose a lot of its power from not having access to vial.
    This guy shines with vial, he is just good otherwise.

    Anyway, as I always encourage innovations here are a few comments you may consider:

    1) I would play Gaddock MD. Why ?
    Gaddock is like scavenging ooze in certain MU. If you live long enough (T3 with GSZ), he is a hard lock that wins the first game for you as affected combo decks usually have no answers to him pre board (e.g ANT). Priceless.

    2) Primeval/Mangara/Karakas
    You should also play a 1-of Knight of the Reliquary. Cheaper than Primeval when going for the GSZ route, it also speeds up by a lot your lock engine.

    3) Sylvan safekeeper
    I know, we are not maverick but Mangara without vial demands protection. Combined with other creatures (such as Teeg) it provides you other lock engine (GG vs miracle when you have Teeg + him on the field)

    4) Replace Tusk by Rhino.
    25 games (Delver decks, miracles, Jund, DGA) so far with him on my side. Kevin must have done about the same, even (maybe) more. Here are my first conclusions:
    - Better than Tusk in fair games. It comes down sooner and "instant" Rhino's life gap (6) > Tusk (5). Tusk (8 life gains if I use Kevin's life computation) is better if you have to tank 2 turns.
    - Equals/better than tusk in control MU. That was my main concern as I was afraid that the missing LBT (leave the battlefield trigger) could be a huge issue. For now, it is not and I'm rather glad of its "take 3 to the dome".
    - Cheaper. Actually, this is the real deal, here. We play legacy and 4 mana is nowhere near 5. I saved my arses a bunch of time because I could actually cast him where I would have died with not being able to play Tusk.

    Well 25 games is kind of low. Only time will tell.

    5) Linvala
    Like Teeg, she is a must. I even think that Abzan Fit list should always at least play 1.

    6) Cut DRS.
    Your deck is not designed to win as fast as an abzan SFM based list. DRS is never useless but in your list, I feel like he is lacking.

    I hope this will give you food !!!

    Happy testing.
    It has: thanks ^_^

    I should say that I'm hesitant on cutting DRS, if only because otherwise I have no way to grind out games against a hellbent ensnaring bridge or multiple Maze of Iths. In fact, it's actually came into play at a SCG Open round 1 vs. Mono-B Pox. Could probably go down to 2 though, especially since I'll be putting in a Sylvan Safekeeper to protect them and others.

    Concerning Rhino: to be honest, I'm considering Obstinate Baloth instead of either. It's the same CMC as Rhino, nets yourself 1 life more than Rhino yet 1 life less than Swag (to use Arianrhod's earlier notes on Scuttling Doom Engine v Kokusho, if Rhino dealt damage instead of siphoning life, I'd be more inclined to use it), and it acts as insurance against Lililiana's +1 and other non-specific discard spells (which our cards are only better if we get to use them). Though, I have to say the 4/5 body with Trample looks sweet.

    I like Knight, but I have reservations about adding it with DRS and Sylvan Safekeeper.

    I considered adding Teeg main, but from I've seen, it's been more of a detriment in the fair matchups than a boon in the combo/Miracles matchup. Then again, I was pairing him up with triple Thalia, Guardian of Thraben MD, so I suppose that would explain it :P.

    Linvala ... I'm not gonna lie, I honestly confused her with Selvala from Conspiracy. That Angel is really damn good, especially against Death and Taxes.

  19. #39

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Quote Originally Posted by Firepaw3 View Post
    How has your miracles matchup been with that configuration? how often did you find yourself wishing for gaze over wanting a toxic deluge?
    I honestly didn't get to a position where I needed to gaze/deluge. I slaughter gamed his entreat's before he could cast them haha. I feel like Gaze can be really good in the matchup though. It can kill a jace, counterbalance and is a 3 mana answer to angels. Where it really shined was versus Painter and Shardless bant. Against Painter it took out a Koth, a blood moon, a welder and a grindstone. I was essentially dead but wish into gaze did what another card could not. Against bant I took out his meek/thopter combo along with all the tokens and an agent.

  20. #40

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

    Hi Folks, after avoiding this for the last few months, I'm testing the BUG Pod list that has become somewhat popular outside of the US. Here is the list I'm currently trying:

    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Glen Elendra Archmage
    1 Grave Titan
    1 Murderous Redcap
    1 Phantasmal Image
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Shriekmaw
    1 Sower of Temptation
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Trinket Mage
    1 Vendilion Clique
    3 Baleful Strix
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Veteran Explorer

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Cabal Therapy
    1 Recurring Nightmare
    2 Pernicious Deed

    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Birthing Pod

    1 Polluted Delta
    2 Bayou
    2 Forest
    2 Island
    2 Swamp
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Verdant Catacombs

    I played a few games yesterday and I found Sower of Temptation and Trinket Mage very subpar. Even if I had Explosives (which I then have to cut a card), I wasn't super happy with it in general. I also found myself heavily leaning on Deed in a lot of situations. I am thinking swapping Sower for Venser (and moving her the board) but I am not sure what to replace the Trinket Mage and Top with. I like the toolbox options but I think it's too slow. It does lean itself to options with Birthing Pod and the ability to go grab a 0 or 1 drop to Pod with, but that seems too cute. Last, is Grave Titan really the best option at 6 for us? I was thinking if there is an "I win" combo in these colors and it doesn't seem like there is an easy one (excluding Melira, which is too slow I think).

    My therapies were relatively okay and I think that was a big part of my games.

    Does anyone have any notes they have about the deck they can share? I was pretty happy with it in general but I need to tune the specific cards a little more.

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