Junk Pod Fit isn't really a thing. It's usually BUG Pod Fit.Originally Posted by Memories of the Time
I guess we don't talk about it b/c we don't care for it. Besides, out of the 5 Nic Fit lists to make SCG T8 this year there were
- 2 regular Junk Fit lists
- 1 BUG Pod Fit list
- 1 Junk Pod Fit list
- 1 Jund Fit list
so I don't know what clear results you are referring to (or where your wonderful Valakut lists are).
Since 2014 no list, except pod - I hate valakut Version btw-, have reached a top at +200 players tournament, or I'm missing something?
And the two biggest results this year are junk pod and brug pod, then valakut fit by two Italian players I know, then 1 junk Fit. And last months of 2015 confirmed that with more pod (I'm searching with tcdecks, I could have missed something).
Despite that the evidence show the contrary, k feel that pod versions are still considered the less competitive, while probably they are the most ones (with valakut, I think, in this meta).
Luckily the meta hasn't shifted since late 2015 and that Eldrazi thing just blew over without as much as making a dent. Oh, wait...
Can't catch your point. Even with eldrazi the two version with best results are pod and valakut
Edit:I mean, it's like since 2014 that this deck couldn't reach such big results and none is talking about it, I was wondering why
Well, I told you twice now so I guess that's that.
@Memories, Tbh I think there are two reasons:
1) This thread might be one of the only threads in the "established" forum on this site that actually contains multiple complete different archetypes (control, midrange, pod value, creature combo, valakut combo etc) and covers different colour combinations from GB, GBW, GBR, GBRW, BUG, BUGwr... So discussing different archetypes can be quite hard here because they get drowned out by other archetypes sometimes. It might be the case that people that want to discuss pod lists have given up discussing here because the rest of us are talking about other things.
2) I think there is a bias with the players here towards a certain "fair" play style, I know that is true of myself. My favourite play style doesn't usually involve the colour blue or creature heavy builds like collected company in modern or pod in legacy requires (I do enjoy blue, and creature decks, they just aren't my favourite). So that style of play leads to discard, sweepers and haymakers, so that leads me to the vet + therapy + gsun shell. It might be the case that this thread has a lot of people similar to me and as such we aren't really discussing/looking into pod or blue lists as much as we would be if we were about to compete in a Legacy Pro Tour for example :P This probably exacerbates point 1) as well..
So to answer your question, the reason I, personally, am not discussing BUG or Pod lists is because I'm here to play what I enjoy most, as well as budget restricting me from accessing blue cards. EDIT: As well as that I think the Junk decks have legs to stand on, I'm not just pissing around in the Legacy format haha
If I understand your point correctly you are saying that rhino lists are better now thanks to their MU agaisnt eldrazi, I find BUG to be in a sweet spot exactly because eldrazi is a thing, Baleful Strix has never been so good against a tier1 deck and you end up with a sweet win ratio, losing pretty much only against the nuts (and im confident that no legacy deck can deal with eldrazi's best openers) and against some fringe 1/2 off such as All is Dust.
Im also 100% positive that BRUG Pod lists have a better miracle MU and a much better combo MU, abzan lists just tend to crush fair deck even more than the others.
Rhino decks are probably better against punishing fire and delver while non rhino ones have a better time against the unfair side of the meta imho.
The main problem is just the amount of nic fit versions available, i can understand abzan player not caring about BUG and vice versa, but dont go further saying that one list is better than the others, both scapeshift and pod have been proved to be at least as good if not better than abzan.
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
Meh, Siege Rhino > everything b/c Siege Rhino.
That's some seriously flawless logic. This thought process simply cannot be dismantled. I agree with you for once 😀
OMGWTFBBQ. Oh, happy day!
Maybe someone wanted a serious discussion ^^
To provide some serious context on Pod (not just rhino b/c rhino, as funny as that is):
I've basically never put in any work on Pod. I acknowledge that it's good, it just hasn't interested to this point. Note that I was a big Pod player in Standard at the time, and I played Melira in modern basically until it (Pod) got banned. So, I know my way around a Birthing Pod, and I do like the gameplay it endorses.
Why have I never worked on it in legacy, then?
I think the biggest reason is because Pod, more so than other Nic Fit archetypes, is a family unto itself. The Pod versions are very alien, they have a lot of very specific design requirements that other versions don't have, and I'm a brewer. I like having a lot of space in decks to mess around with and figure out cool interactions with. Pod is more regimented and it's always felt like there are many fewer available slots for spice. Maybe not quite to the Delver levels of, "you have 5 flex spots in the entire maindeck, the other 55 are predetermined," but it's still constraining to me.
Another reason is that most of the "big voices" in the Pod world are fairly silent. I know David Gleicher reads the thread, and he just posted that he's considering Columbus not too long ago -- but he doesn't post often. Maybe it's a chicken and egg situation and he'd post more if there was more Pod discussion. I don't know.
I wouldn't say it's impossible that one day I pick up a set of Pods and start messing around with it, in which case I'd invariably post about it here. Likewise, though, my attention is focused elsewhere right now. There's a legacy GP in a month, and I'm not going to audible into Pod at this point. Pod lists, across all formats, require a lot of experience with the deck -- knowing the specific chains, always having every creature in your deck memorized at all times, knowing all of the interactions between various creatures at each cmc, Deceiver Exarch shenanigans to skip on the chain, etc. There's no way I'd feasibly be able to learn all of that to the level that I'm comfortable with other, "fairer" Nic Fits, even if I wanted to move into Pod for the GP (which I don't).
As far as the whole "this version has the best results so best girl rawr" dick-measuring nonsense, I've already shared my opinion of that multiple times. There are so many versions of Nic Fit played in so many different parts of the world that we will never have a conclusive view on that, just going off of statistics (math, not philosophy). There's always extenuating circumstances: the decks that have performed the best at large tournaments are those that were played by those capable players in attendance at said tournament. Nothing says that 8-color Flicker Rhino Battle of Wits (clearly making this up) isn't the best version of the deck: just nobody (or nobody competent) takes it to large events. Matt's been busy with school and hasn't been going to large events (plus SCG pulled out of the northwest). I've been going to 50-person Mythics, but I can't remember the last time I was at a 200+ person event. Probably Eternal Weekend last year. I don't know who in the thread has gone to BoM or MKM in Europe, if anyone. Etc, etc.
Tld;r on that subject: There are a lot of capable players and a lot of capable decks. Stats only reflect those who attend. Philosophically, it doesn't matter at all. There is no such thing as a best deck, except in extreme, ban-worthy scenarios.
So, to sum, more Pod discussion is likely going to have to wait until after the GP, unless the group of Pod players already here (you, Noctalor, Ralf sometimes) start talking about it. We've shown, as a community, that we can hold multiple conversations at once, even with as quickly as this thread moves. Don't be afraid to start talking! Like-minded people will respond -- they always do. Or, if you feel too cluttered, start a PM chain. I'm pretty sure you can PM multiple people on this forum software, although I don't know that I've ever tried?
GSZ demands pretty much the same from you. Knowing when to GSZ for what is a crucial part of being succesful with this deck, in any of its forms.
Sure, but not being repeatable inhibits a tremendous amount of this effect. It's totally different when Pod is just sitting in play and you can use it multiple consecutive turns (if not multiple times in the same turn). It also bears in mind to remember that you need to be highly conscious of your opponent's deck's damage capacity, which is something that we tend to shrug off and lifegain though. Pod uses its life as a resource much more due to the prevalence of Phyrexian mana. Knowing just how far you can cut yourself against the field is pretty important. Rhino doesn't actually hurt itself other than with Painful Truths, and has a pile of lifegain, so when Shardless has 2 Tar Pits and a Goyf, we're just like, this is gonna suck but k. With Pod, that same board state might kill you if you've been too aggressive with your life total.
@ Memory
I do play Junk POD Fit along with a lot of other Nic Fit builds.
If you are willing to search by yourself in this thread a bit, you'll find some of my posts speaking of Junk POD.
I'm just following the trend of the thread.
So basically, when everyone is speaking of regular Junk build, so do I...
I'll update my signature with my latest Junk POD list.
Cheers,
Ralf
PS: Signature eventually updated...
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
Not sure how big the classics were, but both the SCG Milwaukee and Baltimore classics had Rhino Fit in the top 8.
Both were 7 rounds, 100+ players.
It seems like people in the thread generally just aren't that interested in the pod version. Which makes sense because it is pretty different than the other versions. The scapeshift version seems quite different as well.
Personally, I had put the deck (and legacy in general) on the back burner until realizing there was a GP coming up that I would probably go to. It looks like there are still some innovative lists popping up. I am planning to start testing my usual list this week with a couple of additions (Meren of Clan Nel Toth and Ophiomancer) and I'll report back on how those are.
Another reason I haven't posted about it is that I feel like I pretty much understand how good the deck is and can be: a nice tier 2 deck that has the element of surprise but doesn't do anything fundamentally broken in a format full of decks that do. Don't get me wrong, it's still totally playable but I'd be lying if I said "man if we just add this card/make this change, it could be a tier 1 deck." I just don't think it's going to happen in legacy.
They have actually printed some really nice cards for it in the pretty recent past (reclamation sage, minister of pain) but it's tough for me to imagine what kind of card they could print that would solve the fundamental problems of the deck. So debating the merits of playing a particular 3 or 4 drop creature or whether to play it main or in the sideboard is not too useful in my opinion - legacy is just too big for such a thing to matter...except for Glen Elendra Archmage, I can't believe that MKM pod player didn't play 1 of those main :)
This sentiment is why I do really believe that Thought-Knot Seer is something we probably need to be looking more into. IMO, the top 3 (in no order) things that Nic Fit needs are:
-) A ~3 cmc disruptive creature -- a reasonable body beatstick that thoughtseizes on enter (green better than not, but fine if not).
-) A Zenithable Shriekmaw style creature.
-) An uncounterable way to kill planeswalkers.
Item 1 on this list is very, very close to Thought-Knot Seer, which is why I was pushing so hard on the 8post version for a while before eventually acknowledging that there's just too much work to be done for it to be tuned and ready for Columbus.
If ALL THREE of these things come to pass, I think we'd have a decent shot at making tier 1. Right now, we're a very solid tier 2 deck -- we've been putting up good results, better than a lot of other decks in the format that used to be tier 1, in fact. Without these three items being printed, though, I find it hard to believe we'll ever crack tier 1, and I'm fine with that. I personally actually prefer being a solid tier 2 -- it means that we're still a nebulous, lesser known entity. There is value in being shrouded in mystery...when the opponents never know what random standard card we're going to drop on them, it gives openings for victories.
Just my 2 cents.
I think the Pod version just isnt as popular here. I think it is very powerful, but requires much different deckbuilding and consistency will always be more of an issue with a comboish deck. Im more for building consistency.
I feel like Pod is more popular in the Euro groups, especially Italy. Feel free to post and we will try to help, though.
Also, might be touring Europe in August. Might want to jam some games over coffee?
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