Well, actually, with your list I can't see how you could not grind out a Pox deck. You have more tools to destroy an ensnaring bridge than Pox has copies of it.
Knight is not pursuing the same role as in JUNK mid range. Beating to death an opponent with a 10/10 knight will happen but I'd rather see it as a boost to get your mangara/karakas lock faster. Not to mention the special hate against S&S & Réa. It could also help fetching the two towers...
Don't overreact to Liliana because you lost some games against heavy discard decks. Hymn+ Liliana will always give some random wins as double waste opening hands also would (And it is played because you will eventually get free wins) . Baloth is a good card nevertheless. Feel free to test and pick up the one who suits you more. I'd rather outpower Liliana's decks or stall until Sigarda lands and closes the deal.
About the Teeg/Linvala etc..thing I thought you were trying to build a hatebear/control abzan Fit list.
Teeg is pretty useless in fair MU but my statement is the following:
"You will likely lose less 1st game against fair decks because of Teeg than you will win against combo.deck thanks to him. The issue you'll encounter G2 & G3 is that white hatebears are quite expected by combo decks (massacre, dread of night, pyroclasm, abrupt decay, toxic deluge etc...)"
Game 1 =
ANT -> Landing Teeg is GG. Standard list has no out preboard. Teeg is threat n°1 / Ooze close 2nd.
TES -> Teeg is usually too slow against TES and they will likely go for the ETW route but who knows if they are on the ADN plan they have to BW -> bounce Teeg.
S&T -> You have 4 cards (2 karakas/1 Primetime +1 Knight potentially) against Show if you add Teeg you shut down Sneak -> GG ?
Dredge -> Teeg will shut down Dread Return shenanigans leaving Dredge with the beatdown route. Ooze is threat n°1/ Teeg n°2.
Elves -> Teeg will only delay the slaughter but you might draw a deed before you got hardcasted Oofed...
From my perspective, Abzan Fit list are bound to lose a few % against fair decks for more % against combo pre-side just because you will mess with their sideboarding strategy.
When they will bring removal and sweepers to deal with your hatebears, you will bring even more hatebears & pinpoint discards to break them harder.
Please take my words with a grain of salt.
I feel like European players are likely playing more unfair/control deck than American do. It is always meta dependant.
I have to disagree regarding your assesment of Teeg vs Show and Tell, the still can show into sneak attack, so no GG.
No problem Ralf: tbh I could use all the help I can get. My record with my previous lists are abyssmal.
Specifically, I was referring to Maze of Ith. Otherwise, their removal plus that means I cant win.
And definity hear ya on the hatebear plan: I just having reservations about using Teeg with GSZs. I have a feeling that there is a Fauna Shaman build that could work, but not sold on the use of it over GSZ.
I got that !
Mangara lock is, imho, clunky in Nic Fit but you might have broken into a maverish new horizon kind of thing...
If you like playing Abzan color, I would recommend:
- Qweerios's latest Abzan list packing Pod + SFM (old thread)
- Kevin's brew
Don't dish your ideas just after a couple of testing games .
I currently run a Junk Wish Fit build based on what Jbone2016 posted a few months ago (although most of my experience is with Punishing Fit). I'm still a total amateur with the deck but have been very satisfied with how it performs:
Lands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
(1 Siege Rhino)
1 Sigarda
1 Grave Titan
Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's divining top
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Living Wish
1 Umezawa's Jitte
(1 Vindicate)
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Pernicious deed
1 Batterskull
Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sigarda
1 Eternal witness
(1 Melira)
The maindeck parentheses are for things that have been Liliana of the Veil most recently...but I can see Arianrhod's point that, even though I love Lili, she doesn't have a place in every nic fit build, and I'm wondering if this is one of them. Infect has been a thorn in my side so I am thinking about MDing a vindicate for inkmoth, and sideboarding a Melira, but realize this may be too reactive. Overall, my SB is more focused on giving the deck consistency than packing silver bullets (except the canonist and bojuka bog), and I have been pretty happy with this: the karakas (to protect teeg or sigarda), the tower, and the explorer in the board have all been MVPs for me. Sigarda is also a flex spot in the board, but I've come to realize I just want her every single game: she's awesome against everything that isn't combo, especially our omnipresent enemy Miracles. As a final note, I know lots of people hate Grave Titan, but I love that guy. Besides the fact that I just love windmill slamming that guy on the board enough to play him even if he sucks, I've never been unhappy to draw him or have him in a starting hand, he's a huge beating for many decks. Anyways, happy to hear thoughts on the build: my experience is that it is, like all Nic Fit, awesome against fair decks and weak to combo, but it's had surprising game against miracles. Still testing it beyond those awfully broad generalities.
Thanks for the great primer Arianrhod, well written and a nice summary of all the Nic Fit variants out there. You do say though to name lightning bolt against burn when actually Sulfuric vortex is the biggest threat in my opinion because it stops life gain like Thragtusk, Huntmaster, etc. and that's the main route for victory in the match-up. I'm also curious about Stormbreath Dragon. What made you go with him in your Scapeshift lists? I see the fact that it dodges Swords to Plowshares but otherwise I'm not completely sold. I think I'd rather just have two abrupt decays main instead to hedge against a variety of decks.
For my local weekly event, I tried to port Melira pod over to legacy, with a few key additions. Veteran Explorer, Deathrite Shaman, and Green Sun's Zenith are not legal in modern but I took advantage of them here. I guess you could argue that this list isn't quite Nic Fit since it doesn't run pernicious deed, but it has the other key components of Veteran Explorer + Cabal Therapy. I went 3-1 yesterday in my weekly with the following list, beating high tide (4 candles!), pox, burn, and losing to miracles.
Lands:
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Windswept Heath
1 Gavony Township
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures (By CMC):
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Viscera Seer
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Wall of Blossoms
2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Restoration Angel
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Reveillark
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
Spells:
4 Birthing Pod
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Sin Collector
SB: 1 Hornet Queen
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
This is actually 62 cards and I can't remember what I cut, but probably the second melira could go away. Admittedly, I went for a few fun-of's in Hornet Queen and Yisan. However, I green sun zenithed for Hornet Queen against Pox after boarding it in and his Tombstalker/Liliana of the veil started to look mighty pathetic. While playing against my miracles opponent he swords to plowshared my Yisan immediately before I could untap with it and he called it "scary." It's basically in there to be Pod number 5 and to generate board presence and card advantage versus fair decks. I'm not sure if Yisan is terribly competitive, but it's a fun magic card and I'd encourage pod users to try him out. Valroz is a GSZable sacrifice outlet for the melira combo and I was not unhappy to just draw it naturally. It works well with Thrun in post board games to make a giant monster.
There's a lot of talk of Junk Nic Fit decks in the new thread and I'd be interested to see some other Junk Pod lists. I know there are some in the old thread, and I tried searching by name people I know play the archetype but I couldn't find a recent list.
Here you go: click me
@Conch:
Keep in mind that the Therapy names are the initial cast of Therapy -- it's assumed that readers can make the correct call on flashback because they'll have the information (barring Brainstorm). Vortex costs 3 and is not an instant, so it's safe to hold off on it until the flashback. I do agree that it is far and away burn's most threatening card in the matchup, though -- probably Fireblast is the only other thing close. Although, Eidolon can randomly be obnoxious.
I think that you might have better luck porting "angel pod," since the Thune package is already established. Melira seems really clunky for legacy -- hell, I've often found it to be too clunky for modern, even.
Why are you not running Stoneforge? That's another insane Pod card that isn't legal in modern that you can run here. It's much, much better than Voice of Resurgence, I'd say.
Here's my current Junk Pod list as there seems to be renewed interest in the archetype:
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Archangel of Thune
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Restoration Angel
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Spike Feeder
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wall of Blossoms
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Batterskull
3 Birthing Pod
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Choke
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Thoughtseize
Been testing it for a few months now and it's actually very good. The addition of Siege Rhino is bonkers. Have fun.
As far as Trinket Mage, have you tried it with Pithing Needle as well? I've found the maindeck needle to be very good in a variety of matchups. The one awkward thing about the Trinket toolbox has been the non-combo with Pernicious deed, although you can play around your cards for the most part. If you want to swap out the Trinket mage, you could look to something like True-Name Nemesis. Sometimes this deck does have trouble applying pressure, especially in the face of Jace, so it could be worth testing. I have also made the Sower/Venser swap. Venser is OK, certainly better than Sower, but not spectacular.
The problem with more targets is that I have to cut more cards. The best I feel I can cut is a Pod. I don't think going below 4 on the others is right and I don't want to cut a creature for an artifact. The Trinket Mage plan might be stronger in the sideboard where I can board in the Mage along with Explosives, Relic, Needle and maybe the Top if it's gonna go to a grind.
Interesting thought. My problem with True-Name is that he kinda doesn't fit the rest of our plan. I will definitely try him and see what I think.
There isn't a better card at 4 and Venser does what is needed. He also deals with anything, which is something I really like.
This is all in relation to the BUG pod lists:
I've been running a true name nemesis and would highly recommend it. Its main job is killing planeswalkers (aka jace), but it also closes out games nicely and provides a (mostly) unanswerable threat, which is something this deck is somewhat missing. Also face tanking nearly anything is always nice. It is probably the best 3cc creature in the format, so why not run it.
Random thought, but has anyone tried llawan, cephalid empress in the sideboard? I suspect it is a little too cute/situational but havent actually tried it out myself.
Similiarly, teferi, mage of zhalfir seems really good against miracles. Aside from turning off miracle, it shuts down counters. The casting cost is rather high, to be fair, but it might be worth a try.
I am also curious as to why more people are not running jace. If ever there was a deck to run planeswalkers in, this would be it. It ramps quickly, controls the board, and runs a ton of creatures (aka blockers for jace). I really wanted to run a different planeswalker than jace (I really wanted kiora, the crashing wave to work, or the garruks), but jace is just jace. Brainstorming every turn in a deck running this many shuffle effects is insanely strong. I have been running 2x jace over sensei's top + trinket mage
I second this. Been saying it for quite a while but not many people seem to like the idea. I've loved it ever since it was printed though. Always good to get with pod, both offensive and defensive. A marginal benefit of the card is also that nobody really expects it and I've often heard a "Oh... you run that as well? *sigh*". My decklist can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post828886.
Regarding 6 drops in BUG: [CARD]Consecrated Sphinx[/CARDS]. Usually I win the game if I can draw at least 2 cards from it. Also hilarious to put into play upon a SnT from your opponent that puts Griselbrand into play ^^.
I guess this depends on the Pod version you're playing. My BUG list is extremely slow and is a pure control list. Deed for <4 is still very very good against pretty much every legacy deck and while it might hurt the small guys a bit, I don't mind sacrificing some (of which the EtB/LtB triggers were already beneficial) to whipe the board of my opponent clean. I do see your arguments for Junk pod though. As Kevin wrote in the primer, GSZ is just not very good in the BUG colors. Therefore, I've opted for a Pod package of creatures, while not really trying to change the way the deck plays. So far I'm very happy with my list and if I'd make a little less mistakes I'm sure that I'll start putting up better results more consistently. The 12th of October I will play my deck at the Danish Legacy Masters. It will be interesting to see how the deck fares in a larger tournament.
I agree with both these parts. I only play 3 explorers and an additional 3 DRS who do a great job at ramping (E.g. enabling a T2 Birthing Pod), gaining life from all the pod activations or posing a threat. This configuration worked great for me and I certainly don't want a 4th explorer.
Nice job on the primer, looks like a very complete list of all the nic fit varieties!
Has anyone tested Treasure Cruise in BUG lists? I'm currently running 4x Brainstorm and 2x Ponder and I think of going -2 Ponder, +2 Treasure Cruise. My graveyard is easily filled and while I run a witness there is plenty of crap to delve away. My main concern is that this choice will hurt the consistency of my deck in the early turns, but the plan of ponder was mostly to use it for card quality in the mid/late game anyway. Will be tested for sure.
Current Changes (Main)
-1 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Sylvan Safekeeper
+1 Gaddock Teeg
Potential Changes (Side)
-1 Karakas
+1 Thespian's Stage
+1 Dark Depths
Notes
-Sylvan Safekeeper is an absolute boss when we have to play the beatdown in the matchup. Even though I lost both games where it actually had an impact, I attribute that to misplays on my behalf and an inability to close the game out quickly [*successfully used against G2 Miracles and G1 Jund]
-Gaddock Teeg wrecks Miracles, especially when backed up by Safekeeper, which mean their only answers are Council's Judgment or combat. [*successfully used against G2 Miracles]
-Qasali Pridemage, on the other hand, did nothing that I had expected it to do. In fact, the only matchup I'd be concerned about having it would the OmniTell matchup and possibly against Batterskull, though I suspect the latter would be about the same as using it on Top
-While Mango Crackers has helped save my butt a few times, I don't think it's worth it to add an extra Karakas in the sideboard. After all, the biggest weakness this list has from testing is an inability to close out the game quickly.
-Conversely, Stage Depths seems like a fine switch in against fair decks, especially when backed up by Sylvan Safekeeper.
Thanks for the feedback. I will definitely try True-Name Nemesis. I have one more slot. Any recommendations? I have a personal preference to some kinda silly cards, like Meloku and Tradewind Rider.
What is peoples thoughts on Clever Impersonator? I can see him fitting into BUG pod lists pretty nicely.
Yeah, I also thought about that. Could clone a Jace. On the other hand, he competes with Sower slotwise, and Sower is just better against the decks, where we really need such an effect (SnT, Reanimator). Sower dies to removal more likeley, though. I guess that has to be tested.
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