I've usually had a lack of response whenever I've posted about the BUG version here. I think a lot of people are on Nic Fit because they don't want to play blue. I've had a ton of success with my version, though. I'll post my current list below, has about two years of refining behind it.Originally Posted by Tom4ik
I don't really like it. You can't pitch it to force and it's competing with Jace, Glen Elendra etc which are way better cards. It's a pretty fair card when you're not cheating it out at a discount. The only deck where the slow clock is an issue is Storm and this is NOT the card for that matchup. The blue deck is a control deck, not a midrange deck, and adding one dumb beater won't really change that - it just makes you worse at your plan A. Maybe there's a more midrangey version that wants this card but I still don't understand why you would play it without Eye of Ugin / Eldrazi Temple.
I ran show and tell + griselbrand for awhile as 3-ofs in a sort of combo-control version. You could Intuition for a missing combo piece or just for Therapies for value. Or even hard-cast griselbrand. It wasn't that bad and was really fun but definitely worse than my normal list.
Here's what I've been running:
Spells:
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Force of Will
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Grave Titan
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Sower of Temptation
4 Baleful Strix
Lands (21):
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
3 Island
1 Bayou
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
The 4th Force of Will or Sower main is a total meta call, as is Deed vs Deluge. You could also run Notion Thief or whatever you fancy over the Sower, it's easily the weakest card in the list, usually stealing a Goyf or Thalia or something, although every once in awhile you put it in off Show and Tell and jack an Emrakul and win on the spot.
The three matchups I'm working on are D&T, Miracles, and ANT. The first two are right about 50/50 and ANT is 60/40 pre-board and about 55/45 post-board. Most of the other fair decks are favored and my other combo matchups are also pretty good (except Painter, 7 maindeck pyroblast effects absolutely ruins this deck). I've been tweaking my sideboard to deal with these decks; I think I can get ANT to where it's favored post-board if I can find the right combination of clock and permanent-based disruption.
Whelp. I hate the modo metagame today.
Lost to post. in 2
Lost to infect in 3
Lost to storm. in 2
Lost to Belcher. in 2
and again to the same belcher player. in 3 this time.
Wtf. This is using Ari's latest build. I miss Teeg.
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
DRS meaningfully interacts with almost every deck in the format, I can't imagine not running it.
Been thinking about a Thragtusk in my version, it's a pretty narrow pool of cards I have to pick from because I'm looking for things I can GSZ and I like to use Bob so the flip damage is always a concern. Thragtusk negates that risk like no other 5's can.In the 1 rhino version, I feel like a second tusk is needed, both for the life gain AND the card advantage he provides against control. 5 power is very very nice against eldrazi and goyfs. I suggest you play a second one!
Domri is interesting, because I run such a SDT heavy list I've been looking for ways where I can generate advantage, and then generate additional advantage out of Top or other cards in the CA package. Tracker does this, Courser does this, Bob does this, and it's what takes CA from being good to being great, in addition to always using cards that effect the board (so no Library here). Domri is something I think can fit into that package, but it would require a specific build. Courser seems to be about the lowest amount of raw CA that seems viable so that's what I'm using as a starting point for Domri, which means it's going to need a 20 creature list to be considered. At the same time though, Domri needs cards that fight, and while Courser fights Delver like a champ, the other cards we play below 4 CMC aren't really all that well suited for it, so that's the part of using it that's going unfilled right now. I'm not quite sure what I'm looking for in a fight creature, but I know I want something green as a 2 drop, Ooze gets close and so does Pridemage due to exalting something else but Pridemage would make it 4 color. Strangleroot Geist fights well, but he does bad things to the mana.
Liliana is a good card but I'm not sure it belongs here, our cards are generally more valuable than the opponents since they're bigger creatures, they're only worse than the opponents cards against combo. Liliana works in a very different sort of list than Domri does.
As far as Omnath goes, I like to top my lists out at 4-5 I find I don't really get to 7, much less 8 to GSZ it until too late in the game. 4 mana is this decks sweet spot because we start leveling off at 5 which is a GSZ for 4.
I think I'm over Jund for now though, I dislike running white but Rhinos, Swords/Path, and so on just work too well. But I'll continue searching for pieces with Domri, because it might give me other ideas for the core.
Edit: Another random thought, as I'm searching through 2 drops that can potentially be fighters I came across Magus of the Library. Has anyone ever tried it? If it works, it could be the elusive 2 drop I'm looking for in my build loaded with CA. Top could assist here with being something to play out and use mana on early, but then puts a card back in your hand when it's time to use Magus. T1 land, Top, T2 land magus. That sequence assuming you're on the draw puts you back up to 7 cards on T3. I suppose discard or unfair decks can really screw with it though.
Last edited by Brael; 06-06-2016 at 01:25 AM.
@Brael: Maybe try viridian emissary - at least it supports our overall ramping plan.
I thought about him a few times but domri could do the trick
Emissary is pretty cool with Diabolic Intent...
On an unrelated note - I finally attended a tournament this weekend (ran Manaless Dredge over Nic Fit though) and at some point there were some people playing EDH. While seeing people play EDH (and hearing them say "who wants to be milled for 2 cards this turn?" with the seriousness and determination of an ANT/TES pilot) when you're about to flip your deck vs. UR Delver on turn 3 or so is hilarious enough on its own, the thing that really got me was that the guy right next to me had Karador as his commander and at some point they had a discussion about how Karador was a wonderful card, but just for EDH (those who've been dwelling on this board for some time now might get why that would be funny to me specifically). To make it even more hilarious I was playing vs. someone I knew quite well and he was looking at me with a huge grin on his face as this conversation was taking place. It was so hard to not laugh out loud.
It was right up there with the newbies talking about how bad 1/1s are just as I was going off on someone with Elves! on like turn 3. Stuff like that always makes my day. Kinda like the sun on a rainy day.
Last edited by Echelon; 06-06-2016 at 03:48 AM.
Unfortunately, compared to other 2-drops in legacy, he just lacks a lot of mojo.
In my preparations for GP Prague I played several testgames with my current Scapeshift build. I guess I was masochistic that day since I played only against Miracles, Infect and Eldrazi (6 each - 2 preboard, 4 post-board).
- 5-1 Against Miracles: the 3 Slaughter Games and the increased discard after boarding, combined with a land-based wincondition really did the trick.
- 2-4 Infect is really hard with GBR without Punishing Fire (and even with it). Abrupt Decay doesn't handle the inkmoth and only once was I able to ramp hard enough to deal with it via Valakut triggers. The other game I won by my epic Cabal Therapy calls ;)
- 1-5 Eldrazi... wtf. I saw T1 Thought Knot Seers, T1 Chalice, and T3 kills. In 3 games I was able to stabilize on 2-4 life, only to get killed by their manland. I won 1 game du to 3 Explorers (the first one got exiled...) ramping me into Scapeshift-win.
Lessons learned:
- Tireless Tracker is good against Miracles
- Punishing Fire would be nice to have against Infect an Manlands
- I think Scapeshift lists have a better Miracles MU than the rest I tried
- and they have a harder time against Infect and Eldrazi
Next Steps:
- Build a red List with Blood Moon as a Sideboard plan - it's a natural match I think. It solves the issues that led to my losses (manlands, eldrazi-ramp)
- Build it with Ancient Tomb for T2 Moons and general Ramp. (EDIT: well that one is pretty stupid maybe)
- Keep the 3-of Tireless Tracker as they do stuff
So... Is anyone following the Legacy Mediocre League? Dayv Doberne is piloting what seems like pretty standard Junk Fit with 2 (or so) MD Birthing Pods. Does run SFM, by the way.
I'm not sure I would call his list standard. He's also playing an Eldrazi Displacer with a single Wastes splashed in to activate the thing. He's also not playing any 6-drops to Pod Thragtusk into, which I think is wrong. Admittedly, with the way the League's deck selections went, any 6-drop he ran would've just been sideboarded out anyway probably, but in the abstract I still think that it would be completely correct to run either Sun Titan or Dromoka in that list against an open field.
There's a couple other things that I know stood out to me, although damned if I can remember them at the moment.
@Rubble: I view Dromoka as being more important than Gitrog. If I could only have one of them, I would cut the Gitrog every single time. I'd recommend -Gitrog for +Tusk, personally.
@Jbone: yikes. I hope I don't have many leagues like that :/
@emu: keep something in mind with Blood Moon: lands in particular is boarding in Grips against basically anything at this point due to the popularity of Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Top, etc. I certainly endorse Blood Moon as a plan, but I think you need to be actively pressuring them somehow if you run it. Just jamming a couple Moons in the sideboard of a control list that has a glacial clock is probably not going to work out. If you opt for the middle option, and run it with Ancient Tombs, that lets you run Thought-Knots of your own (and Wails in the board, probably). Groves, Tombs, and a Waste would be more than enough to justify the slight <> splash, especially if you're running the Tombs for other reasons (like faster Moons vs some matchups).
On that topic, you might want to consider also running a copy or two of Magus of the Moon, at least in the board. A lot of Lands decks will board out their Punishing Fires vs us, which might allow you to steal a win. Just my 2c.
After some more thought, I don't think the Magus idea will work which is too bad. It had me excited last night as a green 2 drop that can provide some ongoing CA but it's too many cards invested to get it going and pretty useless late game. Maybe one of the land bouncers (Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger) alongside more Tireless Tracker would make for a good engine, but there's not that many tap effects to abuse besides DRS. Maybe that's an excuse for Sakura Tribe Elder, it does the same thing late game but also ramps early.
Edit: This thread convinced me to pick up some Stoneforge Mystics, thankfully I already own the equipment suite. I'll probably try them out sometime in the next few weeks. I have a question on deck construction though, Fire and Ice seems to be the best sword, but assuming I go with a 2x Sword 1 Jitte package, which sword is the second best sword to use? Has anyone found a sideboard Sword to work well, and if so which one?
Dies triggers make me hesitant in a world of Swords to Plowshares. Having a board of strong fighters would be interesting alongside Setessan Tactics, but I think Deed is just a better version of that.
Come on thread. That emissary card is trash. If you really want that card sylvan ranger is better and even then its just not a good enough card. This is ironic but BUG has the best 2 drop in Baleful strix. I know delirium is not the easiest to achieve but a GSZ that can get a non green creature would make BUG so much better. Problem being that it cannot grab the turn 2 vet which is major reason GSZ is so good.
This deck doesnt need more CA. Between Ptruths and Library and then top for dig the deck has great (and actual legacy playable) cards to use. I am not sure I like tracker which is just a card that is going to eat bolt/plow/decay ALL THE TIME as the deck has no targets for those cards a lot of the time but as a tutor target I dont hate it enough to care. The major thing is that when brewing this deck you should be less concerned with how to grind out lots of CA which we already have and more how are you going to survive against combo and miracles. Those are the decks that will give you trouble. Otherwise you can play the round pairing lottery and hope to dodge those I suppose.
I used to run 2 moon in my pfire list. They were for the post/lands match up. I suppose they can be brought in for shardless or smth but I never did. I wouldnt play them actually in jund. If you do not have a clock they dont do enough. Honestly, with red lands is terrible match up. I wouldnt bother with that match up. I only included moon because I had 1-2 post per week and 2 lands. Absurd. That and more than a few miracles lists and I was like screw this. I had MULTIPLE round draws that an entire game didnt finish against miracles. Then khans came out and delve was amazing (still miss Dig).
I disagree, more CA has worked very well for me. With my current build that devotes 12 cards towards CA/selection I can outpace most blue decks, which means I can also find high impact sideboard cards with extreme regularity. With a creature focused deck in Legacy this is important because it allows you to land threats through all of the opponents interaction. What we win the game with doesn't matter, any reasonable creature kills the opponent, but getting something through all the removal, counterspells, and discard requires CA.
Tracker is fantastic, remember that must remove cards like Tracker get better as you add more must remove cards to the deck. Enough of them will overload the opponents resources. A handful of creatures like Tracker is useless, 20 of them mixed with other CA though gets to be pretty damn useful. I don't understand the 1 of Trackers though, I can honestly say I have never GSZ'ed for a Tracker, I love to draw them, I just don't love tutoring them.
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Edit: Let me ask another question too that's been on my mind for a few weeks. The answer was more obvious when we were running Recurring Nightmare and trying to loop some creatures over and over, but with the focus (atleast in some builds) on continuing board presence and the general need for a solid 2 drop in the deck... why aren't we running Goyf?
Agreed - 3 Trackers were fine in my testing so far.
@emissary: i also think this card is not good enough for legacy.
Do you even want a 2-drop when you're running a bunch of deeds?
The deck curves better with them, they let you keep a greater percentage of non vet hands and a GSZ for X=2, is the earliest point at which you can reasonably expect to get a beater onto the field against Miracles or Eldrazi. I typically only run 2 deeds, there's definitely a conflict with 2 drops, but at the same time if you're going to Deed you can either use the 2's to block for a couple turns beforehand, or you can play around it. Ooze+Deed is rarely if ever a problem for example.
3-0'd the local tonight with my Mythic list -1 Batterskull +1 Pernicious Deed. I do still feel a hair light on lifegain, so I might try to find a way to squeeze in some other source of that somewhere -- but to be perfectly honest, it might not be a bad thing because having less lifegain is making me play tighter.
Gitrog was unbelievable on the night, but a lot of that is because most of the Magic I played tonight was vs the Nic Fit mirror in round 3 -- played vs my friend on Ultimate, and Gitrog is wildly unrealistic in the Nic Fit mirror. Between Tracker, Gitrog, and Painful Truths, my deck was very, very small both games. Also beat Sneak/Show in rd 1, and Elves in rd 2, although both were largely because I played tight and they both made a critical mistake that I was able to capitalize on (admittedly, Sneak/Show would've gone to game 3 with me on the play, and then who knows).
My Mythic list is likely within 2-3 cards of what I'll be playing at the GP, barring some kind of major change in the sideboard between now and then. The deck just feels really solid, to be honest. It's doing everything I want it to, how I want it to. I realize that won't necessarily help everyone else, because everyone needs to find their own specific speed and build that they're personally happy with, but I'm very close to mine, for sure.
Oh, also, Elspeth is a goddamn workhorse. She won me two more games by herself tonight, and played a role in a third.
Scrubs who dont post their lists get no love - TLC
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Gitrog
1 DL Dromoka
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Painful Truths
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant
4 Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Tsunami
1 Celestial Purge
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Krosan Grip
Old Sorin, over New Sorin? Reasoning behind that Ari?
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
Lots of small reasons. Some of it is that I don't want to run the third Top, which I think is necessary to run S-GN. S-LoI synergizes better with Garruk-R and Elspeth-SC, which is relevant to my grindy plan. Another reason is that I don't want two 6-drop planeswalkers, and I prefer Elspeth over Sorin at 6 mana. I do admit that SGN is a playable card, but Elspeth has put in such a tremendous amount of work for me that I'd be very hard pressed to move away from her at this point. Like...I gave up SUN TITAN for this card. That is not something I say lightly. I also think that, as good as SGN is vs Miracles, SoI is slightly better just because he comes down so much earlier and races both Jace and Nahiri, removal not counted (Sorin 3+1, Nahiri 4+2, Sorin 4+1, hit Nahiri for 1, Nahiri 5+2, Sorin 5+1, hit Nahiri for 2, Nahiri 5+2, Sorin ult, kill+take Nahiri). Obviously the math changes a little if Snapcaster/Swords is involved, but I'm also assuming that you're not sitting there mindlessly plussing Sorin every turn and are actually playing cards too. SGN does do a bunch of damage to walkers with his -X, but he can whiff on killing them...especially higher loyalty ones like Jace and Nahiri. He's obviously insane vs Liliana of the Veil and other, lower loyalty walkers.
One final, minor reason for LoI over GN is that LoI comes in vs combo decks. Very frequently you end up on Veteran + E.Wit beatdown vs combo, and LoI fundamentally changes the clock that combo expects to have to work with by virtue of his emblem. One of the best ways to beat combo is to let them think that they have X number of turns to work with, and then surprise them with a sudden burst of damage that, even if not lethal, changes their plans from having X turns, to instead X-3 turns.
I'll be playing in GP Columbus this weekend, so I thought I'd post my list to compare to your Scapefit.
I played Mina and Denn this past weekend. Though I didn't see them too often, the seemed really good in conjunction with Tireless Tracker. Not to mention they can blank Wasteland and allow for recasting of Mountains.
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Wood Elves
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Scapeshift
1 Thoughtseize
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Pithing Needle
1 Dryad Militant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 From the Ashes
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
Generally From the Ashes is my answer to man lands (Eldrazi Stompy, Turbo Eldrazi, Metalworker, Infect) though it can be on the slow side if you don't get the explosive Veteran start. Pithing Needle is a good answer to Inkmoth and Eye of Ugin.
I haven't really found Eldrazi Stompy to be an issue. Yes, they get the nuts sometimes with T1 Chalice T2 TKS T3 Smasher, but most decks can't handle that, so I just accept that it happens sometimes. Most of the time E Stompy sucks.
What do you guys think?
More Tireless Trackers? I somewhat hesitate because of the Pernicious Deeds that always perform better than expected.
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