in general I like this list more.Originally Posted by Brael
trust u want to stick two drs because of the presence of reanimator, fine. you might cut one and add a scooze (if available)?
do you feel comfortable with 4 sfm? I cut one but as mentioned I have other winning threads like sigarda and rhino main so for you 4 might be ok.
one last suggestion, cut one tracker and add thrag or sigarda main or put one of your PW main.
btw, arbor is a creature, not a land
@Arian, I'll try to discuss on your last post when I will be at home.
Meanwhile, I make the following consideration: it seems that the way the development of the deck is going is twofold. On one hand there are those that are improving what I think could be called "Bigger Maverick"-Fit, while on the other there is the "Bigger Nic Fit"-Fit (sorry for this pun but it explains fast the concept) running bombs like big elspeth, Dromoka and The Frog.
All while Rhino, from being the main star of the deck, is becoming the guy covering the support role: in one decks he is, IF played at all, a 2 of, a bigger dude carrying a sword; in the other one he is a smaller dude played as 1 of for the lifegain-drain.
Am I understanding things incorrectly? Just to have a clear idea of where we are going, after the whole numbers discussion with a sprinkle of random enchantments thrown in the mix.
@Rubblekill, lol I've been trying to get this thread off of its rhino absolutism for a while now (I probably would have done a better job if I stopped going 4-1 in leagues -.- so that's on me) but I have no idea what finally did it. I guess the continued reporting of difficulty with miracles? But yes that seems to be the consensus, finally ;)
@Brael, what do you do when you have 6 mana from your 4 vets/drs/late game and draw a green sun zenith? In either of your decks really. But mostly notably your first one. You're playing white with equipment. I can't recommend/insist on Sigarda enough. None of your creatures have evasion. And you don't have SoFaI so a TNN stops everything you are doing.
@cherson and Matt, yes we all play similar lists to that :P I'm curious about what matches he played to get to 5-0, as well as if he frequents this board and general thoughts on the tweaking points in the deck.
@everyone on mtgo, I see they have cut "friendly" legacy league and added "competitive" league and now there's only 200 people in it -.- has anyone joined the competitive league and do you get paired quickly? I'm in Europe and there's only 200 people in it, that's not a lot of opponents haha why does mtgo suck so much -.-
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
@ Vestige:
From what I see, I agreed that Sakura would be nice in here (9 basics, 4 GSZ, Meren).
I think you could easily cut 1 deathrite to it ((4 GSZ, Scooze in charge, only 6 fetch which can render your deathrite quite useless in some match ups).
To the path/sword eternal question, why not mix them and eventually see what's more benefic? Althougt in the lands match up post side, it helps to keep answers available to Marit after a surgical...
@ Rubblekill:
Thanks for the sprinkle of enchantements ;)
@ All, a little report of my fnm legacy:
I did a pretty 4/0 with no loss at all. But not really representative because of the weird local meta of this fnm and the low number of players.
(8 perhaps 10)
So, my list (61 cards main, because I really wanted to give a try to Sylvan but didn't see quite a lot of things to remove for now):
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Chromanticore
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Eternal Witness
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Eldrazi Conscription
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Oppression
1 Sylvan Library
2 Dead Weight
2 Starfield of Nyx
2 Sterling Grove
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
1*Round: Infect 2/0
Vet cabal at first. He did a bad thing brainstorming in response to the first cabal in order to protect his good stuff. But shuffled them after searching for a basic land.
Then Doomwake Giant did the job, blasting 2 hierarch, a dryad and an agent, leaving him with a nexus and a forest.
Side: in Curse of Death's hold, humility and seal of primordium. Out Courser, Eidolon and chromanticore
Quite the same round 2
2*Round: Infect 2/0
Game 1 or 2, the dude did the same brainstorming mistake.
Veteran blocked his elfic first assault. I got an oppression in and quickly assembled Starfield/deed for the win along with a doomwake giant.
Same side as Round 1
Game 2 I quickly locked him with a rector in Curse of Death's hold.
3*Round: Kitchen Life Combo 1or 2/0
I saw him running a random cleric with a targetting toughness boost effect. So I quickly figured out what sort of combo he should run in along with it for having playing such a things many years ago. So I kept my rector along with an untapped tower to turn over until a gestion or an opponnent full tap in reinforcement. Don't remember which one it was.
Then I locked him with starfield/deed for the win (he was running MD needles, so I had to keep deed secret for a moment. He played 2 of them, 1 on top, the 2nd on Lily).
Side: Seal in , humility in, chromanticore and an Eidolon out.
Game 2 was sort of a funny thing.
He sent a fast combo thing to condemn his creature and get to 1.000.016 life points. I didn't gave it a shit, writing it and continuing a normal game of Magic the gathering, attacking him for 3 points each turn, deeding his things and landing a Lily. A few turns later, quite disappointed while Lily was reaching her ultimate level:
Do you still have a win condition? I have 2 cards more than you in library.. (actually, 1 only, my 61 tech did him miscalculte, but whatever)
Yes, sure. I answered while writing 1.000.009.
And as it was a fnm and that I was quite confident, I won the first. And you, do you still have one? I doubt to draw my 40 and so cards of mine before the time limit... I added
After a deed, Lily let him choose between 2 scrublands or 3 plains. He kept the scrubs.
I kept his board cleared with Lily and recursive deed.
Eventually I gave up while attacking with a shroud creature enchanted with Eldrazi Conscription...
So 2/0 by concession, it would have result in a 1/0 otherwise.
So I finished 1st of this fnm and played an extra game:
Extra Round Pox
Having a lot of creatures to sac I was quite peacefull. Deed for his manlands. Once Starfield came in, the game was settled.
Side: Opposition, O Ring, Lily and the set of cabal out, 4 Leyline, seal and a couple of extirpate/surgical in.
The second game was already quite settled with a leyline on board at start... I let a ratchet go to 4, at reach of Leyline but between Deed and Starfield.. Starfield that I kept protecting with Sterling Grove just in case.
So, even if I was quite happy (I was really quite surprised of my performance against Infect, which one was tigher the last time I checked, but Doomwake was a very strong add here), I need to practicise more against miracle, combo, Eldrazy and the boogydeck Lands.
My thoughts:
+Still very happy with 2 Eidolons of blossom. Strong interaction with Starfield, protected with grove. And also a finisher like when devotion to enchantements is achieved.
Thanks to Ricardio for pushing me to give it a new try (even if he wasn't comfortable with an enchantement fit ;) )
When it comes, Top and Library becomes most of the time quite useless (I prefer to blind draw and be able to cast something else than filter with top. So I top only EoT or when nothing else to play, to potentially draw with it and get it back while playing another enchant)
+Dead weight. I tried to exit them but I missed them a lot. At first, I added it to reinforce early gestion, mostly against DRS.
In fact, this shitty disfigure aura revealed itself trully strong. Even if it's sorcery speed, it kills like 90% off legacy creatures, even monastery mentor (thanks to aura style). And give time agains't what it doesn't. It can be used as sac effect on Vet or Rector. And is insane against aggro with Starfield (funny fact, sometimes, I put it on Eidolon as 5th enchantement to draw and activate Starfield). It's still useless against any combo deck, Reanimator and Lands included, but no more than a decay.
+Sterling grove is insane in this deck. Protecting others enchant including a bunch of usefull creatures. And helps completing a lock combo. Thinking about finding it a 3rd slot...
+Aura shard was too situational/slow. For know, I'm really happy with the seal of primordium in replacement (which can manage a Nexus/Mishra ^^ )
+/- Phyrexian tower. I love running 3 of them. And it rarely bother me getting a second one (always the first wastelan target). But still have bad start hand with only 1 land. So when it's a fetch or a forest with Vets I can give it a try. But when it's a plain or a tower... So perhaps I will be running one less for a while to see...
+/- Sylvan library. I still don't get if it worth a SDT slot. But it's true that it comes back on Starfield, ready for draw step..
+/- O Ring. I put it back mixing Faith's Fetters slot to keep having an enlarged field of response slot while having an additionnal post side response to needle. For now, I keep it, but keep in watch if the seal will be enought and if O ring is not.
-Liliana is still strong cause it's Liliana. I'm still happy when I saw her. But it's a card I often put out when side time come. She rarely embarrassed me for discarding thanks to Starfield. But in most of match ups, I think she didn't have an enought important impact (when decay is around or against some aggro decks like D&T, Elves or Gob). So I mixed it with an Oppression. A not usual enchantement which I hope will reveal itself often more efficient than Lily. Only one off car tutorisable. Will reinforce MD games against miracle and Storm I think. So 1/1 for now. Even if I wouldn't mind 2 Lily / 1 Oppression.
So, I get than no one is testing it for now, but if from an outside eye, you have some comment to make, be my guest.
Thanks to the previous ones of the community, my deck actually got quite stronger than it was.
So, thanks Nic Fit thread, its followers and prophet Arianrhod!
@Jain: You were the first to realize, after having used it, that Rhino wasn't as great as everyone thought. Points to Tao for, if I remember correctly, prophesying that Rhino would turn out to not be that good. Once I accepted the possibility that we might have evolved too far down the wrong direction, I began to consider what a world without Rhino would look like, and found that I liked it. I think the combination of these factors is what managed to break Rhino's chokehold. Any lone impetus wouldn't have been enough, but at the point at which three veteran (puns) players are all coming to the same conclusion, people will listen.
@Rubble: I look forward to it! I also do believe that you have the right of it in general, yes (although I would caution that the "big maverick" vs "big nic fit" dichotomy is only extant within white versions).
To provide a little more food for discussion:
I've already pointed out several times what I feel the biggest problems with Rhino /as a direction/ are. Let's look at Rhino as a /card/.
Pros:
-) Very strong ETB, synergizes with Nightmare and GSZ very nicely. Or Deadeye, if you're a madman.
-) 4/5 trampling body is bigger than some of the most commonly played creatures in the format.
-) Getting Swordsed gains you a total of 7 life at the cost of 4 mana and a card, which is better rate than when most things get Swordsed.
-) Swift clock vs combo decks.
Cons:
-) Loses to most Tarmogoyfs.
-) Loses to Reality Smasher.
-) Loses to Gurmag Angler.
-) See a theme yet?
I think this perfectly encapsulates the problem with Rhino as a card. On paper, look at the pros compared to the cons. The card looks amazing. But then when you consider the actual effect of the cons, it all crumbles to dust (puns). Every tier 1 deck in the format except Miracles and Lands is running one of the above three creatures, and every single one of them beats Rhino in a heads-up grudge match, even before you add in the potential for removal (or Endbringer, which is basically removal). Miracles and Lands, of course, each have their own way of dealing with Rhino -- Lands just ignores it and cooks spaghetti (although when they are successfully disrupted, Rhino is one of the best clocks vs them, admittedly); and we've discussed ad infinitum the problems that Rhino-oriented builds have with Miracles.
This is probably the last post I'm going to make about the card/deck beyond replying to others, but I do think that there is a lot of value in thoroughly examining the fallout of Siege Rhino as a card and as a philosophy. Understanding /why/ it doesn't work is arguably the most important thing we can be doing right now, because it will inform future decisions as new cards are constantly released.
@Vestige: I've tried to sell Sakura-Tribe Elder a bunch of times. Some people have come around to him, some people haven't. I, personally, find him to be indispensable:
-) He's an extra ramp spell.
-) He's a one-sided ramp spell for when that matters (Miracles, in particular).
-) He block/sacs to fade a turn of Batterskull or Jitte without them gaining value.
-) He ramps Meren very effectively.
-) He's an easy creature to get into the graveyard for Recurring Nightmare, if you happen to be using that card.
-) He's an instant-speed way of getting rid of Bridge from Below.
-) etc.
As for Swords vs Path, I'm mostly off of Rhino now (I'm still running 1 copy as a bullet, which I would recommend), but I'm still running Path. There are a couple of reasons for this:
-) Apparently I like making lists today.
-) Most decks get no value. Delver runs 0 basics. Shardless runs 2, but we're actively trying to set off Explorers in that matchup anyway.
-) Decks that DO gain value (DnT and Merfolk, say), are generally favored matchups for us in the first place. The other cited example is Miracles, where I would rather be able to Path my own Veteran than have Swords in my deck.
-) Lands is fundamentally immortal if you make them gain 20 life. We're still probably never winning that matchup anyway, but if we move to StP, I think that matchup goes to a basically a flat 0%.
-) The only value we gain from moving to StP is that we can StP our own things for lifegain, but exiling our own bombs in a deck with that frequently runs Meren, Volrath's, Nightmare, Sun Titan, etc seems real bad.
Other thoughts for you:
-) Not running Master of the Wild Hunt (especially with Garruk R in the deck already anyway) is criminal. The card seriously won me multiple games at the GP by itself. Literally single-handedly. At least proxy him up and give him a try. He'll overperform.
-) No Thrag and no Rhino seems weird to me. You have no lifegain outside of Dromoka connecting or Ooze triggers (which is situational). You can potentially sell me on not running the Rhino, since you're very high on Trackers and other things, but not the absence of Thrag is very questionable.
-) You have a metric shitton of removal. I personally think you have a bit too much, but yet also there's no Vindicate or Pulse, which is weird to me. If you're going to dedicate 8 slots to spot removal (counting Qasali here), at least one or two of those should be Pulse/Vindicate so you can actually hit planeswalkers.
-) I'm not sure about the Deathrites. I think I'd rather have those be threats of some kind (Master and Thrag slots, perhaps). Without a 4th color splash or a pressing need to hit 3 mana on turn 2 (Birthing Pod), I don't think that Deathrite is that great in the deck. At most 1 copy as a Zenith target.
@Arianrhod, think this is good enough for GB<>? Mindslaver + game ending beater with Protection from Swords seems reasonable, and the mana is similar to the other two titans the Post build plays.
Hello,
About Rhino:
-> click here
To make it short:
- I believe one can play Rhino but in a SFM build
- If not, Rhino is not powerful enough.
About SFM:
-> click here
The list has not been revamped and might be a bit off chart.
Nevertheless, I like the list that made 5/0 on MODO.
Here is a new update (without tests):
1 Plains
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ooze
1 Sigarda
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Rhino
2 SFM
1 STE
4 Veteran
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Liliana
3 SDT
1 BSK
1 Jitte
2 Deed
3 STP/PTE
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal
4 GSZ
Obviously, you have to choose if you are going to play DRS or Veteran.
I think that as long as you play Veteran, you also play Deed & SDT.
If you prefer DRS, you also play Sylvan but no Deed (instead Pulse, Decay, Vindicate).
I feel like Liliana is lacking "some love" from us, at the moment. Yet, she might be one of our best tool against our problematic MU.
DRS is strong for a T2 Liliana.
SDT is strong with Lili +1 ability.
I dunno if we can play DRS + SDT along together.
I'm glad some are getting good results with Sorin, Lord of Innistrad.
Keep rocking guys !
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
I play similar deck, this card is basically 10 cmc in this deck so same as Ulamog v2 (in pratcice we can play him after titan with eye of ugin). And it's effect is "when you cast" so maybe he is playable... The question is: is he better than big Koz?
Compared to Kozilek:
- Both of them wreck Storm / combo (although Emrakul does so even if she's FoWed which is nice).
- Both fine but not unstoppable against Miracles
- Both very resistant to removal (basically everything is an instant, and Kozi's counters protect him well).
- Emrakul is better into a threatening board, since you can take your opponent's threats and make them attack into a 13/13
- Kozilek is better into an empty board since you can deny your opponent's stuff with the counters.
IMO Emrakul is more effective at stabilising a board which threatens to kill you, but Kozilek takes control of an at-parity game better. Probably pretty close between the two of them.
I am not quite sure which lists you play but the 8post deck in the 'new developing decks' thread is leaning towards a GB eldrazi mix at the moment. seems he could fit there and some more thoughts are more than welcome to the thread
I think that what it comes down to, is that Emrakul is worse at stabilizing than Ulamog, Ceaseless Hunger is -- I think that's where the comparison needs to be, not vs Kozilek. Ulamog being a double vindicate on cast just seems better to me than a mindsaver that still lets them get in a turn before you untap. The fact that you take their turn and then they still get a turn before you actually play with your own cards again is pretty damning IMO.
You can show that you play Green Sun's Zenith and will never deck yourself.Do you still have a win condition? I have 2 cards more than you in library.. (actually, 1 only, my 61 tech did him miscalculte, but whatever)
Yes, sure. I answered while writing 1.000.009.
And as it was a fnm and that I was quite confident, I won the first. And you, do you still have one? I doubt to draw my 40 and so cards of mine before the time limit... I added
Do you guys blow up your DRS with your deeds a lot? That's always been the primary reason I'm not running any.
I know barely any of you are in blue, but I increasingly want to move from 2 to 3-4 Ponders. It's one of the better cards in the deck, considering it's a bit of a toolbox deck with no GSZ, but it also opens me up to getting owned more than I currently do by Chalice. However I think this may even enable me to cut a basic land, down to 20 lands total and 5 basics. The other most obvious cut would probably be one of the two Lilianas; she seems good on paper but in reality always edicts something and then just dies, or does actual nothing because they have no board and I don't want to discard anything. Another option would be one of the three sweepers.
@Cliq - I did not run any drs as I barely ever wanted to gsz for him and its not worth the space but some ppl swear by them.
I only ran 2 ponder but I was also playing 4 gitaxian probe last time I ran the deck. I also played 3 snap though so I rarely ran out of juice.
I dont like a lot of Liliana in non fire nic fit decks. I like that at 3 mana it comes down off vet therapy but the tick up just feels not great in a deck that wants lands and spells. It helps the combo matchup a ton for non blue decks but I played 4 fow in the deck as hardcasting happens and being able to protect the jace or other bomb the turn it comes down feels important.
I also only ran 5 basics. 2 swamp/island and 1 forest.
@ Cliq:
I usually dish fetchlands to Lili (if I have cards I don't want to dish).
BUG Fit needs usually less mana in play than the other version. Mostly because the top end has a lower mana curve.
I also run a singleton SDT which is quite amazing with Lili.
Obviously, Lili is not great when you play some reactive spells (counterspells for example) but as you are the one who plays it, you get to choose what you are doing.
You've got my list in my signature if you want some ideas.
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
Good point on TNN, I'll add in Sigarda.
No, DRS is enough of a threat that he usually eats removal. It's pretty good when you can play a DRS have him eat a removal spell, then play a Deed and wipe the opponents DRS and anything else on the board.
Well I sure as shit don't mind blowing it up when I have to. I currently run 3 DRS together with 3 Deeds, so it happens. DRS just messes with your opponent until you can drop something that goes over whatever they're trying to do or it draws removal.
DRS is there to buy time. When you need to blow up Deed with it in play, DRS has done its job. Blow it up together with whatever is bothering, shake it off and proceed to kick ass. As long as it's a 2-for-2 or better, you're fine.
To reiterate what I've said a million times before now - Deed should not ever be a reason to not play DRS (or Arbor). If you keep seeing Deed as a reason to not play certain cards you seriously need to reevaluate your mindset towards Deed (or this deck in general). Blowing up your own shit isn't a bad thing as long as you turn it into an x-for-(x+n). If you need to do worse than that, see it as a sever-the-limb-to-save-the-whole type of deal.
Thanks for the kudos. for the record though, I was a big fan for rhino at one time, though never as a 4-of. Rhino was fantastic when he was card advantage. He was card advantage when everyone and their mother was playing lightning bolts, pyromancers, TNNs and treasure cruises. He came down, negates a bolt/delver/tnn attack and then races harder than their cards, trampling over elemental tokens and TNN.
Once treasure cruise was banned, I knew the reasons for the card being so useful would be gone, plus other cards becoming more popular making it worse, so I moved away from it after testing. I only tried it again because lots of peeps here was still insisting it was the way and the light :P
@Brael, thank jeebus :)
@Anyone that cares, currently testing a build with 3-4 eternal witness. It's kind of the perfect card, its a creature for equipment, and both card advantage and selection. Casting StP over and over again against most decks is much better than painful truths. Same can be said for casting surgical extraction for example 3 times against lands/reanimator/combo. Drs makes her a tad sad, but that's what all the removal is for, and you can't drs deeds or equipment anyway. Finally, she does a fantastic Nissa impression on turn 3, even fetching you any colour of mana as opposed to a basic forest (damn you wizards! why did you have to write basic??).
Testing is promising, but I haven't faced miracles yet (wanting to always have a decay in hand for when they drop their mentor is what inspired the plan) so if it doesn't work there, back to the drawing board :)
Tentatively calling the deck "Stoned fit witnesses, the best kind."
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
Rhino is still very good at clocking through stuff since, you know, trample. Nice TNN, kiddo playing Deathblade.
I agree that Rhino, on it's own, has been a tad lackluster, and attempts to improve him, at least in the current meta, have been tough. Adding Equips seems like the right call, so I'll be trying it. I think also playing Junk with only 2 Rhino and other threats with evasion or protection, is also okay. I think going a bit heavier on walkers to combat Miracles is also a good call, either pre or postboard, or both.
I'll be trying some stuff, and when I get good results, I'll let you know.
Is Master of the Wild Hunt worth it in a SFM build, or nah?
-Matt
What do people think of the new legendary werewolf? Could it be the extra oomph that Huntmaster just seemed to lack lately?
http://66.media.tumblr.com/ab14f9d61...beo8o1_250.png
http://66.media.tumblr.com/86c5b64e7...beo8o2_250.png
I like Witness, that many 3's seems really clunky though between equipment, Witness, and if you include it, Tracker.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
