Originally Posted by apolloscr33d
Yeah, Siege Rhino is really good at smashing every time he gets turned sideways. Tireless Tracker has become a pet card of mine. He's just so good!
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This is the new list that I wanna playing and trying to figure out the side board now that I have a straight like
Creatures-18
4-veteran explorer
1-baleful strix
1-duskwatch recruiter
1-coiling oricale
1-fierce empath
1-tireless tracker
1-eternal witness
1-venser shaper savant
1-maren
1-mystic snake
1-thragtusk
1-Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1-frost titan
1-consphinx
1-deadeye navigator
Lands-22
3-forest
3-islands
2-swamp
1-tower
3-tropical
3-bayou
1-sea
6-fetches
Spells-21
4-therapy
3-zenith
1-intent
3-deeds
2-pulses
1-nightmare
2-Jace TMs
2-Sensei's top
2-eldritch evolution
1-kiora crashing waves
Thoughts questions
Quite a few, but I'll keep them to myself for the sake of cutting slack.
So thinking about the different build options, I'm trying to do more work on what each colour combination and build actually does well / where we should be looking.
I'm currently assuming that the core of a Nic Fit deck is something like this:
- Some number of Veteran Explorers and Cabal Therapies.
This is the generic shoe-in, since it propels the game towards the lategame and invalidates mana denial strategies, while helping against our otherwise bad combo matchups with discard.
We're going to be playing these cards, which means we have some inherent weaknesses: Chalice of the Void, opponents with Basic Lands, Non-destruction removal, and opposing Ramp strategies.
- Some number of effects which allow us to stabilize against threatening board states.
Pernicious Deed is the obvious one here, but there's also Toxic Deluge and miscellaneous forms of spot removal. There are also blockers like Baleful Strix and effects which provide us with our own stabilizing board presence like Stoneforge Mystic, or discourage the opponent from attacking like Academy Rector.
The issue here is that our sweepers are often mana intensive, which means if we don't get an Explorer trigger we can fall behind. This is why Baleful Strix and Stoneforge Mystic are so great - they help us move out of the early game.
- Some number of effects which allow us to end the game once we have stabilized.
Every colour has its own choices here, whether it's Siege Rhino and Sigarda or Jace, The Mind Sculptor or The Gitrog Monster. The problem we have here is that our best dedicated finishers tend not to fulfil any other roles in the deck. That means we have to trade off between consistently drawing what we need to end the game, and having finishers clogging our hands when we need something the stabilizes or ramps us. Which brings us to...
- Some number of effects which allow us to get the cards we want, when we want them.
These cards generally let us turn mana into card selection. We have the privelige of often having spare mana available which allows us to spend some on card selection and still be able to play reasonable threats. Sensei's Divining Top is the usual choice but there are a lot of possibilities. Brainstorm is the standout, which has the glorious effect of letting us put cards from our hand back on our library, allowing us to ship useless finishers away in the early game and get rid of unneeded ramp cards once we have the mana we need. The problem with these cards, again, is that they generally cost mana and don't impact the board state. If we have to spend turn one and two using Sensei's Divining Top before we can find our Veteran Explorer, we have some worries if we're against an opponent who threatens our life totals or otherwise puts a short clock on us. Speaking of which..
- Some number of effects which disrupt opposing unfair strategies.
This is a category where we're often lacking in game one, so our sideboard often contains these. Deathrite Shamans and Scavenging Oozes are great against graveyard strategies, and Cabal Therapy does a lot of work, but generally we are a little short of hand disruption and anti-combo effects. A lot of combo decks rely on the battlefield, which allows us to interact with our stabilization effects, or in the graveyard, where DRS works. Other decks, particularly fast ones, can be a problem. As far as disruption goes, blue lists get Glen Elendra Archmage and potentially Force (or at least, our opponents often try to play around Force), colorless lists get Thought-Knot Seer and white builds have potential access to Gaddock Teeg. A lot of the time games against unfair decks depend heavily on the sideboard.
So looking at these:
BUG: Good at stabilizing, Good against combo, Good at filtering, Awful at finishing the game.
Baleful Strix is an absolute beast, as are counterspells (esp. post-board) and Brainstorm. All we need is a finisher that presents a faster clock than JTMS.
Jund: Average at stabilizing, Average against combo, Average at filtering, Good at finishing the game.
Good sweepers post-board. Slaughter Games is a haymaker but slow. Punishing Fire CA is real and also good for inevitability.
Abzan: Good at stabilizing, Bad against combo, Average at filtering, Good at finishing the game.
Stoneforge, Rhino and Lifelink guys help to stabilize, provide CA and finishe. Often needs to import Slaughter Games to help Combo - Teeg is a bit vulnerable. Great creatures and walkers end games very well.
Colorless: Bad at stabilizing, Good against combo, Bad at filtering, Good at finishing the game.
No real stabilization options beyond Deed and trading creatures. TKS is a great disruption element, but the deck doesn't have a good CA engine. Adding Big Eldrazi (Kozilek/Ulamog/Emrakul) makes the deck a ton better at finishing but even worse at stabilizing.
Does that looks like it makes sense to you guys?
I was more getting at that he's a powerful planeswalker than implying good in standard equals good in legacy...Most of the time I can hit 3 green sources and planeswalkers that can make tokens every turn and draw cards can be really powerful against decks like miracles and grindy matchups.
New toy?
Unfortunately, delirium is not easy to settle in nic fit...
No come on kid what's thethoughtsvor questions u have cuz I can answer them as well as back most of them up with different tourny results.
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/70217
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=6295&d=236187&f=LE
There are two more that bigger events that I have archived some were
Ramp spells: 7 (3 GSZ, 4 Veteran Explorer)
A little on the low side. You will have difficulty hitting five and six mana early with this many. Might want to add in a Sakura-Tribe Elder and/or a Deathrite Shaman or two. Coiling Oracle isn't consistent enough.
Interaction: ~17 (5 removal spells, 2 EE (being generous), 4 discard, Frosty, Snake, Venser, 3 Walkers)
You have the numbers, but be aware that a lot of them are very expensive. You only have three removal spells which can be cast reasonably before turn three - Decays. You also only have Deed for non-targeting removal and have no interaction with unfair noncreature decks except Therapy (and Snake/Venser, haha.)
Draw/Filtering: ~17 (6 creatures, 3 Zenith, 2 EE, Intent, 3 PWs, 2 Top)
There isn't much reason to split your choices up this much. Baleful Strix is just better than Coiling Oracle almost all the time, and there's no reason to Zenith an Oracle when one more mana gets Tireless. Witness is pretty bad in your deck because all your power cards (Zenith, EE) don't go to the graveyard when they resolve, and the other big strength of Witness (recycling removal) is a lot more difficult when your removal spells are all permanent based. Why aren't you playing Brainstorm? You have a ton of shuffles and are in blue.
Finishers: 17 (Empath, Meren, 5 5-6 drops, 3 Zenith, 2 EE, Intent, 3 PWs, Nightmare)
If you run Empath, play a Delve creature so you can actually do something the turn you cast him. Tasigur is fine. Meren is a lot worse without Dryad Arbor and Phyrexian Tower. You have too many big creatures, especially considering your low ramp numbers. Ishkanar is probably just worse than Thragtusk, especially when you consider you'll have difficulty enabling Delirium. Frost Titan isn't worth it over the other two big guys. You can probably get away with 1-2 Thrag and 1-2 big 6-drops from Deadeye and ConSphinx, both of which win games on their own. Recurring Nightmare is not usually worth it when you already have plenty of card advantage engines everywhere. The walkers are fine but might be overkill, particularly Kiora who's pretty easy to kill and doesn't threaten to win the game as fast as JTMS.
If you want to play Eldritch Evolution in BUG, work out your lines.
1-3: Explorer - Empath - Tasigur / other fatty
1-3: Explorer - Witness (need better Witness targets)
1-3: Explorer - Tracker (solo threat against Karakas decks where Tasigur doesn't work)
2-4: Strix - ?? - maybe Meren? That seems okay. Need a sacrifice outlet, probably Phyrexian Tower.
3-5: Empath / Witness - Thragtusk? There have to be other good targets here. Maybe Shriekmaw.
I'd look at something like this:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 DRS
4 Baleful Strix
1 Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren
1 Other 4-drop you're happy to sacrifice - this is probably Glen Elendra Archmage.
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Tasigur
3 Zenith
4 Therapy
3 Brainstorm
3 Decay
2 Deed
2 Evolution
2 JTMS
1 Sensei's Divining Top
8 Fetchland
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Really? We play instant and sorcery removal, plus fetchlands, plus the entire goal of the deck is to kill one of our own creatures, and many builds have deed which is an enchantment that puts itself in the GY. Also, planeswalkers.New toy?
Unfortunately, delirium is not easy to settle in nic fit...
I don't know that the delirium boost is the story here though. It's a free top every time it connects. Making that happen is the issue.
Ok I do see some of what ur saying but this list has been tested and has alot of resalts behind it and has not realm let me down I never once ran into the mama problem in any version that I have built. The biggest issue that we had when I built it was the4 drop spot which me and arionrhod put in cc which was super strong
Like I post two of my top 8 with it I don't run into this problem and as far as the unfair creature deck u would be surprised how much frost titan has walked over deck and un fair creatures like spaghetti monsters make u aware I do see what ur saying but this everything has been tested alot in bigger tourny and I do agree about kiora she is too easy to kill and that's but the spider the recruiter eldritch are new crrds that are one I am unsure of as far
Also sorry for some of the. Misspelled stuff my phone is a pain in the dick but yeah kiora has and still under achieving so prob gonna go garruk
Sure. You're running a card which was spoiled for the new set this morning I'm sure your testing has been highly extensive.
I have no idea what this 'cc' is and it doesn't match the initials of any card in your decklist. If you could elaborate that would be great.
You are playing six cards which are probably going to rot in your hand some percentage of the time: Mystic Snake, Thrag, Ishkanar, Deadeye, CSphinx, and Frosty. You want at least one ramp spell before you can reasonably cast any of them.
Most lists run 0-1 six-drops, with Blue ones running two sometimes. Nonblue lists sometimes have 3 five-drops. Birthing Pod decks can cheat on the mana a bit, but you don't have that luxury either.
- You have a 70% chance of getting a Vet or Zenith in your first 2-3 turns with 4+3 in the deck.
- You have a 70% chance of getting an Evolution, Tower or Therapy in your first 2-3 turns with 2+1+4 in the deck.
- That means you have a 49% chance of actually ramping before turn four. Assuming you never play against Wasteland, removal for Vet, or counterspells for Zenith.
- Over half the time, any big creatures you draw will be stuck in your hand until late in the game. You can't assume you'll be able to run loads of them. I understand that playing big stompy monsters is the draw of Nic Fit, but there are a lot of decks which will run you over if you don't do anything before turn four, let alone turn six, and you can't afford to have so many cards which do nothing against them.
Ok chameleon colossus. And he in my top 8 listings that I posted and all the deck has been played tested and successful and the new stuff is which is being tested coming up. And as far as the list that u said were dead have all but ishara have dominated games over and over again I top 8 4 different fortduals plust 6/3 a go with a version simlar to this list but I do understand what u mean on some parts like trust me me and arionrhod have tha mystic snake convo alot and then I win with it and he throws his hand up everytime lil fuck it
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/70217
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=6295&d=236187&f=LE
There are two of the four trying to find the other two to 8 with the list but arionrhod is one of conspritors on creating this from the ground up and most of the things in have done amazing for going the spider and evolutions and recruiter
If you want to run a 4-mana Counterspell, you may as well just run Cryptic Command. At least Cryptic combos with Eternal Witness. It's not like any of your ways of putting Mystic Snake into play are functional at instant speed anyway.
Chameleon Colossus is fine, and a finisher that BUG can use to actually end games. I don't like it in a meta with any amount of Miracles and other Swords decks, but I guess it's okay. Pity it doesn't block Marit Lage.
I'm not saying Frosty and Deadeye and CSphinx don't dominate games. I'm saying that any one of them will dominate a game, so you will never actually need all three of them in the same list. It's overkill. You could have just one of them, two at most, and win just the same. Especially with Fierce Empath and other ways to tutor the stuff up.
Current meta yeah that's why I dropped him off cuz the formats not dominated by drs and batterskulls anymore. Trust me and arionrhod have done. Themystic snake argument alot lol and arionrhod me him both agree for some god dam reason its always there when I need it to win games and o attach to deadee for the lock down
I hate Mystic Snake a lot. I've also watched it win him more games than it has literally any right to. I've tried running it myself and it's awful for me, but something about how he plays the deck specifically makes it great for him. I have no idea. I just accept it, smile and nod, and move on with my life.
Fair enough. If you're a wizard who can transmute shit to gold, I don't think any deckbuilding ideas I suggest are going to be relevant to you.
Mystic Snake & the top of the new Bug Opposition at Bazaar of Moxen make me want to try a build with them very hard.
And yes, from my experience with Opposition i don't think it's a big problem with Veteran Explorer. Where you want him you want opposition too.
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