I thought so too, at first. I mean, having that many instants/sorceries in your GY should mean game's over, right? But then I figured it should help vs. counters (and lots of those). It also seems pretty need vs. Miracles. They don't have an 8 to CB it and you gaining 3 life (StP) for drawing 3 cards seems like a pretty sweet deal. It also helps you deal with Jace. I mean, what're they going to do? Send it back to your hand so you can draw 3 more cards? Lol.Originally Posted by Brael
So... Has anyone else been testing Eldritch Evolution?
Hi all,
Jumping in on the "have been frequenting here for weeks, only just decided to post" bandwagon. I've been playing the deck a regularly for a little over a month, and have been averaging a bit over 75% win rate. Making changes as I go along.
Most recent is the addition of trackers and jitte (I have not yet tested jitte, but seems like a nice fit). I've also just taken out the deathrite, as I've found I never green suns for him. If I get him he's great, if I actively need grave hate I get scooze, and with 3 rhinos and a tusk life isn't an issue.
My main question here is actually regarding him. I've noticed he's in almost every list, but I'm not sure specifically as to why. He seems amazing on paper, and I've played extensively with him in multiples before and loved it, but in this deck, I've just never found myself zenithing for him (except that one time I didn't have a third land drop, or therapy). For reference, below is my list. It appears I've got some unusual card choices compared to what I've read about on here, and if anything would welcome a discussion on them.
Creatures:20
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
Spells:17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands:23
2 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:15
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Grave Titan
2 Duress
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
First a couple of questions:
- Why Primeval Titan as your 6-drop? Magical Christmasland value when you have a Titania on the board (a 5-drop that can be answered by a single Lightning Bolt, by the way)?
- What's that lone Wasteland doing in your manabase? You plan to Waste your opponent after Primeval Titan comes down, or even more cute value w/ Titania..?
- Horizon Canopy - to what end?
- Just 1 Abrupt Decay as spot removal suite w/ just 2 Pernicious Deed to back it up?
- Your manabase is very low on initial black sources. This can seriously hinder your ability to cast Cabal Therapy reliably on turn 1, where T1 Cabal Therapy into T2 Veteran Explorer is one of the strongest openings you can have
- Your manabase is also very low on white sources. Sure, you omit the best card Abzan gives you (Path to Exile), but 12 white sources is very light for a deck that does mean to cast white cards.
- Your SB - to what purpose would you bring in Grave Titan? What problem should it fix that your MB has?
- Your SB - Melira. Is Infect a significant player in your meta?
To answer your question - a single DRS can severely fuck w/ Delver & graveyard strategies. So can Scavenging Ooze, but it comes down 1/2 turns later. DRS coming down on T1 can be the difference between life and death. The lower CMC means you might also get it through a Daze where Scavenging Ooze would get countered by it. It also functions as a lightning rod to draw away removal before we cast what we do care about and it can speed up your gameplan by a full turn (which also can be rather crucial).
I'm sorry I'm unsure how to quote parts of a message, so I'll try split it up:
Titan is a big tramply dude. The main use is getting tower+stronghold then spending the rest of the game casting the same rhino over and over. Or just returning stuff for value.
The wasteland is a remnant from when I ran knight of reliquary. Still good with tatan/titania. But if I know I need it, 1 ofs aren't hard to find with the amount of tops and shuffle effects.
Horizon canopy is a land that turns into something else once in the late game. Also a draw when you want two things of top, while keeping your top. Just a little versatility, but becomes painful if there is more than 1.
Yea. Again, things like that aren't hard to come by through topping and shuffling. You only need to see one per game game 1. You answer the problem things then keep pushing and they're the ones who need answers.
There are 12 black sources. I've never had explorer+therapy and NOT had the land. Normally it's one of the other 2 I'm missing.
I usually get a plains off the explorer. Otherwise 10 sources. Plus since I rarely need it turn 1, tops help.
Grave titan is a win more against fair decks, or decks that can go wide. I've considered replacing it with Dromoka, but 10 power on 3 bodies is too good. It's also a game closer. Happy to bring it in against miracles for example because they have to terminus for the 1 card.
Melira-there's 2 or 3 infect. But at the cost of one slot, I'm happy to put it in just to not get blown out, cos game 1 is usually a loss
Yea, drs turn 1 is amazing in certain matchups. Just the chances of seeing it turn 1, against those specific matchups is boardering christmas land. I absolutely see it's value. I guess it more comes down to is is better than a second tracker, or jit.
Tower + Stronghold aren't great in the face of Wasteland. You're better off with going for Dromoka or Sorin, Grim Nemesis. Both can pull you right back into the game. Dromoka stops aerial assaults and gains you massive amounts of life, Sorin draws you cards whilst killing your opponent and kills off creatures whilst gaining you life. Titan is mostly win-more.
I'd switch Wasteland for a regular card and Canopy for an extra fetch. It both ups your black count and plays wonderfully w/ Top, especially in the lategame.
You know how you normally deal w/ decks that go wide..? Pernicious Deed, and plenty of them. And some more spotremoval to prevent them from going wide. There's no need to run a card in your SB that helps you shit on already good MUs. That's just a waste of SB space.
DRS should be played as a 2/3 off.
Edit: And run a Sigarda, dammit! She's too good to skip.
Yea, those are both fantastic and worth consideration. The thing with titan is he himself needs to be answered, as well as the lands he brings. With my own wasteland I can bring in first with horizon or something if I see they have one out, or 2 witness+titania getting the land back isn't an issue. And even if I can't, they've still had to answer titan plus a land. Go me. Alternatively, if it looks like he can be easily dealt with, plus they have wastelands, I just GSZ for something more relevant, it's the wonderful thing about toolbox. Worst case scenario I get him and get a canopy and a wasteland. Draw 2 cards next turn. And that's not a bad worst case. Actually the worst case is him getting countered and I get nothing, but that's the same as anything except Drokoma, who I've been heasetant on because like the knight of reliquery I cut, she's no immediate value. You're getting out a 6 drop and they path the thing. Advantage is the counter resistance and that would be a sideboard card. That's why I'm focussing on the two titans in that slot. Immediate value, plus a question to be answered. Sorin, yes. Sorin is awesome.
I feel like you need the wasteland. You have to be able to answer the lands deck, enemy inkmoths etc. I honestly haven't had any problem getting the colours. it's typically turn 1 fetch/play bayu and live happily ever after.
What would you recommend over titan? It sures up good matchups which could be redundant but is also great v miracles. I feel like with 9 hand disruption and 3 surgicals+scooze I've got combo covered, a lot of the elves and low cost dude decks you load up the extra deeds/paths/plague.. Maybe something for grixis delver. That decks a pain, but the problem is it's 1 slot, and the problem I have with them isn't that I don't have things that are good against them, it's that they counter all my stuff, including stifling the fetches. Thoughts? Maybe dromoka, who again, is only good vs counters because everything else paths or terminates her. Even miracles, being the main counter deck just swords it.
I agree on drs. One seems bad, running 3-4 is a consistent DRS strategy, and they aren't exactly bad in multiples. I don't know if that's what this deck wants though, especially considering the opportunity cost.
Wasteland/Stifle don't see play on your meta? That's unlikely. I hardly ever fetch a dual as first land. You just can't risk the blowout.
Not to be a dick, but Titan folds to everything troubling Miracles does. @6 mana you have to worry about CB w/ Terminus on top and it's answered by the same Terminus/StP that answer every other card we throw at Miracles. It does nothing to help vs. that particular MU. Miracles is dealth with via combat walkers. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Garruk Relentless. Those are cards they can hardly deal with, so that'd be my first suggestion.
TES/ANT is hardly bothered by 9 discard & Surgical/Ooze. They just bide their time and combo out while you durdle. You'll need stuff like Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist. With a combination of discard, hatebears and a clock you might get there, but it's still very unlikely. Know that and accept it.
Kinda missed a key question for that discussion there... (Unless I missed it in the text walls?)
With a 75% win rate, (over I assume more than 2-3 tournaments), what is your meta?
And J-bone, where's that tournament report dude? Senpai still needs to teach me how to best miracles.
Junk and Stoned Rhinos.
If there's a possibility of stifle I obviously play around it. Wasteland doesn't bother me if I'm landing an explorer, otherwise you play around that too-depending on opening hand of course. If I've got 4-5 land opening, I'm happy for them to waste me.
I mean they can't deal with grave titan with a swords to plowshares (zombies are still a real threat), and they can't ignore it for more than a turn, and even that's risky. Sorin I'm seriously considering in that slot now that we've had this conversation.
Tes and ANT I need more experience with, reserving comment for now, though advise welcome.
Key question really is about DRS. Why do people use him, when, is he zenithed for and is he a big deal to not have?
4 events so far, all around 32 players, all 3/1 and better (4 round events). Meta is quite diverse, I've not played the same (opposing) deck twice in a night, or more than a couple times total. Though grixis delver and shardless are popular. Still can't really compete with grixis delver when they go crazy with the stifles/counters/wastelands in the first 2-3 turns then beat me to death with a pyromancer army or a couple delvers.
The heavy losses were tendrills storm (before I added 3 surgicals), and grixis delver, which I feel I'd still lose to. Miracles give me grief, but I think I'm making headway in that matchup.
Stp on Titan, Snapcaster -> flashback StP on token 1, block token 2 to death/bounce token 2 with Jace? Yes, huge threat indeed.
I can see you having trouble w/ Grixis, especially if you have the habit of opening with fetch into Bayou. Having more spotremoval and Deeds helps. A lot. Same goes for Deathrite Shaman, by the way. It's also something you need to learn how to play against.
I think pointing out a scenario where miracles has an answer to your creature is kind of silly. They can literally answer anything. That said yes some creatures like Sigarda will be more resilient in that MU but still something miracles can deal with.
I think the real key is to try and best manage resources, overload they're removal/terminus while not getting blown out by them and as you said using planeswalkers.
That's the entire point. 45-something was under the impression Grave Titan wasn't answered easily, where it seriously doesn't pose much of a problem at all. That's a pretty big oversight if you mean to use it as an answer vs. a certain deck. If we can come up with the line I described, you bet your sweet ass a half-decent Miracles pilot'll come up with something even better. You have to think this through, not just think "Meh, this creature'll solve my problems" and have that be it. That's setting yourself up for failure. Think about what your opponent can do to you before running into it face first.
Why did the miracles player have a snapcaster and stp in hand still by the time you are playing titan? That card is the top of his curve so I would guess that other cards were played first and that the Titan is played after the hands are played out. In that case he is right, Stp does not help them because he still has 4 power. Even if he plays titan and miracles player uses 2 cards to deal with one how is that not worth it? Mana usage is irrelevant in that match up so paying 6 vs 4 isnt a big deal because you get the extra card out of the deal.
I would say that a bigger issue than Stp is that terminus cleans it all up in the attack step. Prime time is still the most busted 6 drop if you are going to play one imo.
Personally I don't think Grave Titan or 6-drop creatures are what we want at all in BUG. I have been doing some working on this (finishers for Sultai) and it's a bit of a pain, really. Our basic options are:
- Nongreen 6-drops that are scary, but removable and can't be Zenithed (Deadeye, CSphinx, Grave Titan)
- Green big guys that are resilient, but still fold to Terminus and are awful elsewhere (Sagu Mauler, Primeval Titan into Towers, Simic Sky Swallower, Thrun)
- Slightly smaller green guys that are faster, relevant in other matchups, but easy to get rid of in comparison (Titania, Chameleon Colossus)
- Planeswalkers that still aren't as good as Abzan's (Garruk, Ob Nix - I'm assuming you already have a couple JTMSs)
- Some other clunky wincon like Cunning Wish for Empty the Pits or some kind of Recurring Nightmare Combo
- Splash W for a solid finisher like Sorin
- Splash C for 2-3 Thought-Knot and 1 Reality Smasher
The solution I'm leaning towards is to forget about running dedicated finishers and just play a few ways of turning our dorky value guys like Witness and Strix into threats, like 1x SoFaI and 1x SoLaS/SoFaF. Baleful Strix with a Sword is suddenly a real problem and ends the game just fine by itself.
When I played bug I played strix/Snap (blue for md force which is why over witness) and no dedicated win con. Jace or the idiot brigade with a couple of Thragtusks and tar pits as well. Its usually enough. Bug nic fit plays so much different than junk colored versions. It doesnt use gsz and its basically just a control deck that uses therapy and veteran explorer as a mana fixer. In fact I cut some lands when I played it and added ponder. That way the curve stayed low and you just drew more gas. The delver idea of low land counts but vet makes up for that as once you hit 4 basically the entire deck was online. Havent played it in a while though. My next deck to play when I get a chance is Bug Things.
I think BUG should focus much more on control. You've got Strix/Wall of Flowers(?) that cantrip + Brainstorm which is fantastic card advantage. I haven't experimented too much with Eldritch Evolution but I really like the idea of being able to maindeck and tutor into both Vendilion Clique and Glen Elendra Archmage. Vet -> Clique or Baleful Strix -> Glen Elendra Archmage seem like cool options. Glen Elendra even better since she can evolve into Grave Titan and Consecrated Sphinx (which I think should be the only high-end). Multiple Jace TMS plus single Thragtusk to help round out the 4-5 drops.
I haven't been online in quite a while but if I do end up with a list, I'll try to post it here. I have high hopes for the evo card helping with BUG. Maybe getting Clique into play at sorcery speed is only so-so. But GEA seems very good.
@square_two
I think Clique is probably a sideboard slot.
I'd be tempted to run something like this:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Eldritch Evolution
3 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 JTMS
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
8 Fetchland
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
I'd still really appreciate your guys comments on Deathrite.
Is he needed, how needed is he, is he ok to cut, or should he be run in multiples?
Again, on paper he seems very good. In practice I never gsz for it. And if you're running extra grave hate in the board, he seems even less relevant.
I'll get it tonight. Drinking and tilting on modo don't mix so well.
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
DRS is very good, this isn't a deck that operates on one or two mana sources. Every DRS that sticks is one less land you need access to in order to function. Every DRS on the board is also one more mana you can spend when you don't curve out perfectly. DRS is both a mana source and a mana sink, for that reason he's basically the ideal card at any time. The fact that he does this while also acting as GY hate and providing a clock is incredible.
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