A thought experiment that was sparked some 20 pages back by discussion on trying to make pernicious deed more effective and the miracles MU a little better. List is far from tuned but may be fun to play around with.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Voice of Resurgence
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Bitterblossom
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Contamination
4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
Everything Brael said about drs is totally true. But is 1 of worth it, when you need it at certain points in the game, against laterally select matches. And if multiples are needed, how many, and what sort of list would be run to exclude other key elements replaced by drs.
As for making deeds more effective, run flip nissa and ultimate her on their lands, then pop deed. Won me a few games
I like to run the full playset between MB and SB. I usually stick to 2 main and 2 SB. Any time Veteran Explorers come out such as against Eldrazi and Miracles I bring DRS in so that I still have acceleration.Originally Posted by 4554551//
Wants to "make Deed more effective", suggests playing Bitterblossom. Do you really want to run Contamination to make Deed more effective vs. a meta where the average mana curve stops at 3..? Just take a moment and think about that one, will you..?
So now both Brael and I have said "run DRS, b/c reasons" and you still ask "Is it worth it" and can we provide some lists..? You know there's >300+ pages worth of discussion and lists here, right..? You could also Google some lists, put some effort into it. DRS is one of the key elements, hence pretty much every list runs between 1 and 3, on average (notice how this is never 0). And if we're going to start questioning why the hell we'd run 1-off green creatures in a deck w/ SDT & GSZ, why are we bothering with this deck at all..? And if that'd be a valid argument not to run a 1-off green creature, then what is your reasoning behind "1 Abrupt Decay is a perfectly fine spot removal suite b/c I can find it so easily"..?
I don't think you're listening. Or are capable of listening. You're great at being actively unpleasant though, so good for you. The question is centred around if running multiples, what is it at the expense of. Decks I see on mtg top 8 mostly run 1. So I'm curious what people that aren't you are cutting from the usual for the extras. I don't meant specific cards as choices vary, but rather that roles that those cards had filled in the deck are being lessened in order to run multiple shamans. Draw? Pressure? Removal?
If running one, when does one zenith for it. Because what was said earlier is that he's great early against miracles. Fantastic. Is that a you're spending your turn 2 looking for it, or just hope it comes up at some point?
The difference between drs and decay is decay is a catch all answer. You need it to shut down certain situations. Be it a perstermite or a counterbalance.
Zenithing for a drs will never give you the kind of game changing result as abrupting a perstermite in response to a twin. You also shouldn't have to do it twice. Unlike having multiple shamans.
If Zenithing for the single drs is correct, when is it more correct than getting a scooze for example. If not turn 2, is that 1 mana important? When is it important? Or are you simply happy to come across it when you do? In which case it goes counter to the basic premise of nic fit which is every peice is there for a specific reason.
Does anyone else have input in the matter?
Why do you have to GSZ for a 1 of? It can just as easily be your 5th copy of explorer in that case, for the purposes of having early acceleration.
My acceleration suite is 4 Veteran Explorer, 1 Phyrexian Tower, 4 GSZ (for Arbor), 2 DRS. In SB games when its relevant it's -4 Explorer, +1 Carpet of Flowers, +2 DRS, +1 Sakura Tribe Elder.
My build of literally every deck I play is built around this principal. Some cards are legit tutor targets some cards are there just so I have the chance to draw them. The CA suite I use lets me see a lot of cards per game, 1 of's are pretty consistent even when I'm not tutoring them.Or are you simply happy to come across it when you do? In which case it goes counter to the basic premise of nic fit which is every peice is there for a specific reason.
You'll probably never Zenith a DRS. If you need to Zenith a 1 drop for mana Explorer usually does it better, if you need GY hate, a DRS can't be online before turn 3 (and when he is he'll get one card) while an Ooze can also be on T3 but if you had acceleration he can eat multiple things. I mostly GSZ for 0 for Arbor when I need to use my GSZ for acceleration unless I suspect it's going to die.
You don't get the answer you want to hear and you're unwilling to put some effort into finding those things out and getting to understand those things yourself so you'll shop around until the next fish bites? Cool. And you only need 1 Abrupt Decay b/c a deck w/ 3/4 SDT, 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm can't possibly find a 2nd Counterbalance..? And Splinter Twin is a real Legacy deck? I was not aware of that. Well, excuse me for being rude.
So....after tilt losing to a dedicate life gain deck in legacy....
Here's the list
Maindeck
Lands (22)
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
Creatures (15)
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
Spells (24)
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate
1 Painful Truths
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Celestial Purge
2 Thoughtseize
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reclamation Sage
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
@jbone: Celestial Purge..? To what end?
Brael, what matchups do you take out the explorers?
Would you still take them out against miracles if you weren't replacing them with other ramp?
I'm really curious to see your list. Having drs as essentially a 5th Explorer seems valid then..
What mechanics do you feel you compromise on to have the extras? Draw? Recursion?
@###### # - I wouldnt run Drs in this deck at all. I dont think it is worth a slot as you rarely gsz for it and drawing it early just turns on the bolt/plow/decay that decks will usually have sitting relatively dead otherwise. The card is super powerful so the floor on it is high enough that people seem to like it but I personally would rather use the space for additional mid-game tutor targets in a zenith build or if on a bug BS/Ponder build replace it with control cards. That said if you want to run it and want to know what options are best to move around post the current list you are working on and tell people what cards you consider to be open for changing. It is hard to do in the dark as every person has different ideas as to what Nic fit can/should be as I am sure you can tell from even just the last 3 pages.
With respect to Deathrites - I generally run a few in my lists. A few main reasons:
- I don't like running 4 explorers unless I'm playing a very top heavy CMC list. Drawing multiple explorers is pretty awful.
- You need a reasonable number of ramp cards to be able to legimately expect to actually be able to ramp before turn three.
- 8 ramp effects (4 Veterans and 4 Zeniths) is a little low when we are so dependent on drawing a copy of one or the other.
- Deathrite fills a ramp slot like Veteran, but isn't as explosive. In exchange it has significantly more utility and is less of an awful topdeck lategame and has relevance against some matchups as graveyard hate.
I personally like running 3 Veteran Explorer, 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder and 2 DRS + 4 Zeniths for 10 ramp cards if I'm running a standard list in terms of mana needs (normally 1 6-drop, but able to utilise excess mana with abilities / equipment).
As far as compromising other parts of the deck, I generally try to avoid losing out in other categories by doubling up slots. I usually only run 1 slot as a dedicated finisher (e.g. Sigarda) and leave the Rhinos and Grave Titans and Recurring Nightmares at home. Instead I run game ending cards which can also act as removal or card advantage / selection engines like most combat planeswalkers, equipment, or more Tireless Trackers.
It comes out against Miracles, some Eldrazi builds, and any other misc deck where it feels to me like the opponent is using the Vets better than I am.
If I weren't bringing in other ramp I would leave the Vets in, the last thing you want to do is to cut the mana that lets your deck run.
My current list is posted in the last couple pages, I'm experimenting with a smaller SFM package.
I compromise on having removal early game. Once the draw engine gets going it works out fine but I'm weak to needing Path/Plow on turns 2-3.
Gurmag Angler, Marit Lage token, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack
Another removal spell for DRS, Lily, Young Peezy, Nahiri (which never came up)
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
@Navsi Explorer does turn into gas in a deck with Tireless Tracker, which I'm still a huge proponent of. It synergizes so well with our game plan
EDIT: I'm a Modern player so maybe this is much less relevant, but it is "Bolt Test" still a factor in why some cards don't see play? I've been trying to find interesting and rogue cards for GSZ targets as of late.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Last edited by cavalrywolfpack; 07-17-2016 at 10:40 AM.
Has anyone on a junk build ever run Ranger of Eos? There's a lot of things it can tutor and it can sort of function as a 5th GSZ getting us quite a few options like DRS, Explorer, and Safekeeper.
I remember back in the days of DRS in Modern I loved having a Ranger in my Pod list. Though I could always pod into him, here I just have to draw him naturally. Still, it seems to me like a decent value card at 4 mana and the downsides are no worse than Rectors.
Also, because he gets DRS Ranger is one of the few 4 drops that passes both the Bob test, and the general SE test of generating CA so he really seems ideal.
The bolt test is less of a factor in Legacy. Games go longer and the removal is Swords to Plowshares and counterspells so Bolt is less of a big deal. Creatures with sub 4 toughness can still contribute such as Tireless Tracker. Also creatures in Legacy tend to be smaller. Your cards do still need to provide value against 1 mana removal or trade favorably but toughness isn't really a factor. The closest Modern analogy would be a card passing the Path test rather than the Bolt test.
Haven't posted in a while. Been busy busying a house, doing reno, moving in, etc.
I'm noticing lots of frustration with this deck. We all need to relax.
As for design ideas (bear with me, I barely understand the new set), Eldritch Evolution has the most potential, no?
I would consider Eldrazi/Evolution or Junk/Evolution.
I am on junk colors and I have tried the 8 rhino and sfm builds and they have been fun but I am not entirely sold on them. I picked up some birthing pods and would love to hear from the people who are familiar with the pod decks.
Here's what I plan on running this Thursday at my LGS:
Creatures
4 veteran explorer
3 Deathrite shaman
1 voice of resurgence
1 scavenging ooze
1 gaddock teeg
1 eldrazi displacer
1 eternal witness
1 kitchen finks
1 reclamation sage
1 Liliana heretical healer
1 tireless tracker
1 murderous redcap
1 siege rhino
1 thragtusk
1 doomwake giant
1 shriekmaw
1 sun Titan
Instant/sorcery
4 green Suns zenith
4 cabal therapy
2 enlightened tutor
Artifacts
3 birthing pod
1 umezawas jitte
Enchantments
2 pernicious deed
1 sylvan library
Lands
4 windswept Heath
3 verdant catacombs
1 marsh flats
2 bayou
1 Savannah
1 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
2 phyrexian tower
2 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
1 wastes
Sb
1 Pithing needle
2 Ethersworn canonist
1 Choke
1 Garruk, Relentless
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Thoughtseize
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Abrupt Decay
I feel naked without my STP/PTE but noticed most builds excluded these pieces of spot removal in pod lists. I also added 2 enlightened tutor. I figure this gives me 2 extra copies of Pernicious Deed, Doomwake Giant, Sylvan Librar, Jitte and a lot of other toys post board.
Help me become one of the pod people
It's by far the coolest card in the new set. I'm not sure if it's for this deck though. I've done a days worth of testing with it and although some cool stuff came up, I'm not sure yet if it's the real deal or The Danger Of Cool Things.
You're going to get murdered without some meaningful interaction. You need to trade resources with your opponent, but you don't really have the cards to do so.
Also, Horizon Canopy is really, really bad.
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