[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Echelon]

I think saying "It's bad against Terminus" isn't really a fair argument because every creature is bad against Terminus. It's a board wipe, it's what's they do.

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Yes, b/c Miracles isn't a problem MU at all. I mean, why bother trying to fix a problem when you can just fiddle with yourself thinking of all the ways you can also win your good MUs. That's much more useful!

Has anyone here tried gut shot in an abzan list?
Seems like a good removal spell for decks where you're wanting to lower the curve.
Mostly for infect, grixis delver and hate bears.
Hits delver and young pyro, infect dudes, mum, and revoker. Lesser extent also thalia.
I'm trying it as a 2 of in the board.

What hate bears would you want to bring it in against..? Ethersworn Canonist? Gaddock Teeg? Containment Priest? Seems legit *cough*. It also doesn't work vs. flipped Delvers, Deathrite Shamans and so on. If you want to deal with a creature in an Abzan list, just use Path to Exile. If you want to deal with D&T, use Golgari Charm or Pernicious Deed. Same goes vs. Elves! - PtE & Golgari Charms.

Seriously people, think stuff through before you post it. If even I can find the flaws in whatever you bring up before I've had my morning coffee, it probably isn't good enough.

[4554551//]

Yes, b/c Miracles isn't a problem MU at all. I mean, why bother trying to fix a problem when you can just fiddle with yourself thinking of all the ways you can also win your good MUs. That's much more useful!



What hate bears would you want to bring it in against..? Ethersworn Canonist? Gaddock Teeg? Containment Priest? Seems legit *cough*. It also doesn't work vs. flipped Delvers, Deathrite Shamans and so on. If you want to deal with a creature in an Abzan list, just use Path to Exile. If you want to deal with D&T, use Golgari Charm or Pernicious Deed. Same goes vs. Elves! - PtE & Golgari Charms.

Seriously people, think stuff through before you post it. If even I can find the flaws in whatever you bring up before I've had my morning coffee, it probably isn't good enough.

I would like to deal with the creatures listed in my post. And I'd like to do so through stifle/wasteland/port/daze/thalia/revoker(naming deeds)
Sure, path is great. Deeds is too slow and charm is slower than I'd like for the matchups where I want it. So I'm asking if anyone has tried gut shot as an alternative.
You haven't, that's cool. Anyone else?

[Brael]

Has anyone here tried gut shot in an abzan list?
Seems like a good removal spell for decks where you're wanting to lower the curve.
Mostly for infect, grixis delver and hate bears.
Hits delver and young pyro, infect dudes, mum, and revoker. Lesser extent also thalia.
I'm trying it as a 2 of in the board.

I'll try again.

Gut Shot is good if you have it on the right turn, but if it's a turn too late it tends to be pretty poor. Using your list since you wanted to tak about those creatures:

Infect - It's good against them.
Dever - Good on T1 or T2, but once they flip it's pretty bad.
Young Pyromancer - Good in response to the first spell, bad after that.
Mother of Runes - Good only while it has summoning sickness.
Thalia - Makes the ratio really bad. Taxing is strongest on lower mana spells.

In comparison, Golgari Charm still hits everything in Infect and even gets past some protection spells since it's non targeting. It also loses effectiveness against Delver but in exchange it cleans up Pyromancer completely after they go all in on it. Mother of Runes can't protect it. And the Thalia tax matters less.

That's all for the -1/-1 mode too, there's still two other modes that are less relevant but still good.

[square_two]

I would like to deal with the creatures listed in my post. And I'd like to do so through stifle/wasteland/port/daze/thalia/revoker(naming deeds)
Sure, path is great. Deeds is too slow and charm is slower than I'd like for the matchups where I want it. So I'm asking if anyone has tried gut shot as an alternative.
You haven't, that's cool. Anyone else?

I highly recommend Golgari Charm. I've 2 in my nic fit sideboard and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. Comes down faster against Elves and D&T than Deed and can clear things up at some crucial moments. I too am highly dubious of Gut Shot but if you want to test, feel free...I'm pretty confident that upping the number of Decays or Swords first is going to be more helpful.

[TTX]

Yes, Golgari Charm is great. Beyond the -1 mode, enchantment destruction is useful against both Miracles and OmniSneak, both seriously problematic matchups


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[Warden]

Unless the format changes, I'm starting to think Deed is just too slow for the format --- greatly invalidating this deck's core strategy.
Generally speaking, Eldrazi are the best big creatures in the game (Grisseldaddy and a few others also in the mix). Spaghetti-Fit is viable, as Kev has piloted this idea before.
I think NicFit just needs to evolve as an archetype. The recent discussion (see: past few months) tells me the format has moved beyond what the deck wants to do. Vet-Therapy is still a strong opener. However, the shit we build into after that initial punch is just....meh. Idk. Rhinos aren't enough IMO. I've even gone baneslayers and they werent GG worthy. I'm thinking this deck eventually becomes Eldrazi-Fit to stay competitive. Unless new shit gets printed that catapults this deck back into the spotlight.

[Echelon]

@board, concerning Gut Shot - just stop feeding the troll.

Concerning Deed: Arianrhod had some succes replacing them with Toxic Deluge/Maelstrom Pulse/Vindicate.

[Brael]

Unless the format changes, I'm starting to think Deed is just too slow for the format --- greatly invalidating this deck's core strategy.
Generally speaking, Eldrazi are the best big creatures in the game (Grisseldaddy and a few others also in the mix). Spaghetti-Fit is viable, as Kev has piloted this idea before.
I think NicFit just needs to evolve as an archetype. The recent discussion (see: past few months) tells me the format has moved beyond what the deck wants to do. Vet-Therapy is still a strong opener. However, the shit we build into after that initial punch is just....meh. Idk. Rhinos aren't enough IMO. I've even gone baneslayers and they werent GG worthy. I'm thinking this deck eventually becomes Eldrazi-Fit to stay competitive. Unless new shit gets printed that catapults this deck back into the spotlight.

I don't know that it's too slow, but it doesn't work against Eldrazi which is the match where we most need it. Toxic Deluge also works as a board wipe.

I agree with you about the deck losing steam, that's why the build I use focuses on slightly smaller creatures but high amounts of CA. Unless I get mana screwed early it's not too hard to reach a point where I never run out of gas (basics help a lot with not getting screwed). You might want to give that approach a try, I've had pretty good results with it. Here's a list

Land 22
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 20
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Siege Rhino
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed

Spells 14
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate

Artifact 3
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard 15
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tidehollow Sculler

My only real complaint about the list is that it feels removal light in the first 3 turns or so (which is really only problematic against Miracles and sometimes Shardless). Once you get an engine going you draw into what you need. Deeds over something like Toxic Deluge are a pretty big factor in feeling removal light, but I actually think Deed is well positioned right now despite being bad at killing Eldrazi because people are loving their Chalices and Trinispheres. Which on the subject of Chalice, this deck is fantastic against.

[Scott]

If someone's thinking about moving away from Pernicious Deed to battle Eldrazi, I wouldn't recommend Toxic Deluge (a card I'm a huge fan of in general). That's a card that they can run themselves; I tested it just to be sure, and the big chunks of life necessary to wipe their board of big creatures are back-breaking against their clock.

[Brael]

If someone's thinking about moving away from Pernicious Deed to battle Eldrazi, I wouldn't recommend Toxic Deluge (a card I'm a huge fan of in general). That's a card that they can run themselves; I tested it just to be sure, and the big chunks of life necessary to wipe their board of big creatures are back-breaking against their clock.

I agree, but haven't yet found anything better. Perhaps Wrath of God but 4 mana always makes it feel so narrow to me. Deluge isn't ideal but can stand up to anything other than multiple Reality Smashers.

[Echelon]

It could be pretty potent vs. Shardless. Use it vs. anything not Goyf (toughness <=2), AD and PtE for Goyf.

But yeah, wiping away lock pieces makes Deed so good. And playing the Deed game - waiting with popping your Deed until just the right time. We just have to make sure we play enough ramp.

@Brael: your build is quite close to mine. I like me some CA engines! I do focus more on the 3+ slots for CA though.

[Nilsfit]

Hi folks,

I've just brewed up a BUG nic fit version with 4 traverse the ulvenwald and 1 emrakul, the promised end. First of all I've tried to make the deck the more consistent as possible, so the list doesn't have a lot of toolbox lands it could have (dark depths+thespian stage, volrath's stronghold, wasteland,....). Here's is the maindeck list:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Ponder
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta

The deck looks great against non combo decks to me, it cannot beat combo decks though. Probably a light white splash for gaddock teeg maindeck and some more hatebears in the sideboard would help? Let me know your thoughts!

[square_two]

I kinda like it @Nilsfit.

I'd consider Gitaxian Probes instead of Ponder though. You'd be surprised at what you'll already be able to see/dig with Strix/Tracker/Brainstorm, and they are both cheap ways to fuel delirium as well as help give some powerful Cabal Therapies. I might suggest, if you want to get cute, a single Edric in place of an Eternal Witness or Tracker. There are times where you have openings to attack with little guys (especially strixes) and he is a CA engine if so. Definitely debatable but I think he warrants testing.

I'd be curious to hear how quickly you can achieve delirium for Traverse, on paper it seems good though. Fetch, Therapy/Probe/Ponder, Strix will do it. If you really need a basic, then even playing it out turn 1 isn't the most horrible thing in the world.

[Jain_Mor]

Er guys, she provides crazy card advantage as a 4 mana walker, pressures combo players hands, and make a good impression of an oblivion ring for a creature (That -1 is so bad though, but I guess incidental life gain is always nice). I want to like her :)



Edit: so yea thinking about her more (wish she could exile other planeswalkers too... that would have been sweet. Exile target planeswalker or creature.. nevermind)
Obviously the dream is that you keep the board clear (what we do..) or against an opponent who doesnt pressure the board (our weak matchups) and you -2, -2, 0, -2, -2, 0 ad nauseum doing an insane LotV impression.
If your opponent has a single creature out, or a couple, then you can zero one of them to protect her and then cast removal on your next turn. She seems quite great.

Edit 2: @Jbone, yea blinking etb effects is quite good, however it means you can't block with those creatures, or attack with them the next turn when they come back. However, the fact that she can do that just adds to the toolbox (blinking ewit does seem particularly strong though... oooooooo....)

[jbone2016]

Er guys, she provides crazy card advantage as a 4 mana walker, pressures combo players hands, and make a good impression of an oblivion ring for a creature (That -1 is so bad though, but I guess incidental life gain is always nice). I want to like her :)

Blinking rhino, thragtusks and witnesses. Oh my.


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[Bobmans]

It blinks opponents creatures better then your own; beginning of your next upkeep is a long time.

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[square_two]

Er guys, she provides crazy card advantage as a 4 mana walker, pressures combo players hands, and make a good impression of an oblivion ring for a creature (That -1 is so bad though, but I guess incidental life gain is always nice). I want to like her :)

I think she will really depend on whether or not you can get multiple -2 activations from her. Obviously it's a strong effect but I don't think it is worth it to only be able to use once...tad hard to evaluate though. If you can manage to Therapy a key piece from Combo, then get her on the field, you are in a great place. Moreso if you can E-Witness back something like Surgical or the same Therapy. Wonder if Junk NicFit could try Hymn to Tourach alongside her...the additional discard could pair well with hers.

You can also save stuff like Deathrite Shaman, Dryad Arbor, SFM from your own Deed effects if you have to. Or more valuable small creatures like Scavenging Ooze (although you lose any counters).

[Brael]

Edit 2: @Jbone, yea blinking etb effects is quite good, however it means you can't block with those creatures, or attack with them the next turn when they come back. However, the fact that she can do that just adds to the toolbox (blinking ewit does seem particularly strong though... oooooooo....)

The -2 is really strong, and she can sort of block by taking away attackers (exiling Delvers is extra fun) but I think I would rather keep my Ranger of Eos in the slot. I need 4 drops that can pressure the board and she doesn't really do that.

It blinks opponents creatures better then your own; beginning of your next upkeep is a long time.

There's not much difference that turn if you blink post combat. But you have to remember that your next upkeep means the creature won't be attacking on that following turn.

I think she will really depend on whether or not you can get multiple -2 activations from her. Obviously it's a strong effect but I don't think it is worth it to only be able to use once...tad hard to evaluate though. If you can manage to Therapy a key piece from Combo, then get her on the field, you are in a great place. Moreso if you can E-Witness back something like Surgical or the same Therapy. Wonder if Junk NicFit could try Hymn to Tourach alongside her...the additional discard could pair well with hers.

Hymn is tough to cast with any reliability. If you want to cast it on time you need 18 black sources before compensating for Wasteland potentially messing anything up. It's not impossible, but it does mean completely reworking the manabase, most notably you give up Sigarda and Path.

[Jain_Mor]

@Brael, I'm hoping she can revive a traditional nic fit board control shell that can attack miracles with the Planeswalker angle because she's the first Planeswalker non-blue decks have had access too that draws cards reliably for under 5 mana and she does a mediocre Liliana impression against decks that like cards in hand, again something that's been missing because we haven't been running Liliana.

I'm thinking
4 Gsun
4 Vet
2 DRS / STE
1 Witness
1 Thrun (best walker blocker)
1 Tusk

3 Top
4 Therapy
4 STP
4 Decay
2-4 Pulse/Deed

6-8 Walkers

[square_two]

I'm thinking
4 Gsun
4 Vet
2 DRS / STE
1 Witness
1 Thrun (best walker blocker)
1 Tusk

3 Top
4 Therapy
4 STP
4 Decay
2-4 Pulse/Deed

6-8 Walkers

Good basic list...but with a lot of walkers, having a full playset of Oath of Nissa could be good enough to shave on Tops, GSZ, or the DRS/STE since it does find lands. Also helps with casting Liliana. Or Jace if you want to up the power level while taking risks with colors.

Oath makes me wonder if some creature-based wraths could be worth it. Probably not, but still. Magus of the Disk? False Prophet might be better with Therapy/Phyrexian Tower available. Meren + Necrotic Sliver + Harmonic Sliver? Eh...