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Thread: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

  1. #1

    [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    I've been rather surprised by (most) of the community's reaction to Khans as a weak set - and this week's article is about the two main culprits for that state of affairs:

    http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Of-Tarkir.html

    Check it out and let me know what you think. Also, feel free to share your own impression and testing data. :)
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  2. #2
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    As with most things Magic related, it's easy to Monday-morning the reaction to cards like JTMS when it came out after we've all been playing with it for years. Legacy was a fundamentally different environment at the time, and I don't think it's fair (or terribly useful) to use examples like that for anything except to encourage people to give cards an actual look (instead of being immediately dismissive.)

    Having said that, I think it's laughable how bad both of these cards are in an environment where mass Graveyard hate is not only encouraged, it's expected. They both have such high mana costs that if you don't get to Delve them, they are effectively unplayable. One of the benefits of Snapcaster is that it enables you to make small, incremental advantages without very much commitment (as opposed to Yawg-will like effects that require you to commit heavily to make your engine work.) Would I rather draw 3 cards than make my Mongoose better? In a vacuum, sure. But on Turn 5, when I've already been attacking my opponent, and I have been able to disrupt them because my clock came down on T1, I am probably going to be happy to have the little goose that could.

    I am more than willing to admit it if I end up wrong, but as long as people are obliged to play RiP and Relic because Dredge and Reanimator (and other random Graveyard Value stuff like Loam) are a thing, the variance between pay-off and being dead in your hand seems too high.
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief View Post
    Sultai Delver
    Jeskai Delver
    Shardless Sultai
    Nope. Not even once. I appreciate that perhaps your affiliation with SCG and their goal of normalizing deck names to Wizard's flavor standards might censor your writings. But BUG and RUG are forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  4. #4

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellomdian View Post
    ...
    Having said that, I think it's laughable how bad both of these cards are in an environment where mass Graveyard hate is not only encouraged, it's expected. They both have such high mana costs that if you don't get to Delve them, they are effectively unplayable...
    I think it's got brainstorm-syndrome where even answering it is a losing proposition a lot of the time. If an opponent drops a proactive graveyard counter like Rest in Peace, and you're holding a dead Treasure Cruise you end up a little bit ahead, since he spent more than you, and reactive graveyard hate like Tormod's Crypt are limited because delve is part of the cost.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Nope. Not even once. I appreciate that perhaps your affiliation with SCG and their goal of normalizing deck names to Wizard's flavor standards might censor your writings. But BUG and RUG are forever.
    Jeskai =

    And by RUG, did you mean Temur ?

    /daggers

    Interesting article. I'm excited to see how Delver/cantrip lists adapt to these cards over the next few months.
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    I think it's got brainstorm-syndrome where even answering it is a losing proposition a lot of the time. If an opponent drops a proactive graveyard counter like Rest in Peace, and you're holding a dead Treasure Cruise you end up a little bit ahead, since he spent more than you, and reactive graveyard hate like Tormod's Crypt are limited because delve is part of the cost.
    It depends; if you can realize the value of a dead card in hand with something like a Brainstorm, then yes, you are probably slightly ahead. Then again, if stopping you from drawing cards means they are more likely to win, then the value of a card in hand is irrelevant.

    I think there is also the assumption that there is a cost associated with playing the Hate cards - people run Spellbomb and Relic because they cantrip, and therefor have very low opportunity cost. As for Delve being part of the cost, if these cards became popular, I would expect to see more people pop the answers earlier - you don't have to eat 7-10 cards, you just need to eat the first 4-5 to slow the deck down enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Nope. Not even once. I appreciate that perhaps your affiliation with SCG and their goal of normalizing deck names to Wizard's flavor standards might censor your writings. But BUG and RUG are forever.
    We had this exact conversation this weekend. Assuming MtG makes it another 5 years, it's terrifying to imagine the kids talking in this nonsense like we all use terms like Esper and Jund now :p
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    Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy', as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. This is an idiotic metric.

  7. #7

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Nope. Not even once. I appreciate that perhaps your affiliation with SCG and their goal of normalizing deck names to Wizard's flavor standards might censor your writings. But BUG and RUG are forever.
    Would hold my horses on that one. Based on the fact that Carsten admitted to SCG editing stuff like article titles, I would not bet on the name usage being decided by Carsten without him claiming responsibility for it. Up until he does, I will be over here reading the article and wearing my beautiful tin-foil-hat.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    As much as Treasure Cruise is going to be a one-of blow-out, you're severely overhyping the cards and it's not unreasonable for people to be apprehensive about their future. The cards unreliable, unwieldy, and in many cases they will not integrate easily with an existing deck. Will they be played? Absolutely. Particularly Treasure Find. But not at record breaking rates by any means.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    If these cards actually become a consistent 4-of strategy, we'll likely see more Rest in Peace, Leyline of The Void, Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbombs and such showing up. The first two can be run with a Helm of Obedience to justify running them against decks that don't use their GY, and the latter two at least cantrip at worst. Leyline and Spellbomb are one-sided, so could even be run in decks that choose to play the Delve cards.

    Deathrite Shaman meanwhile will continue being the best creature.

    I think Dig Through Time is the better card, merely for being instant speed and having superior selection.

    To be honest I haven't done any testing with them yet, but I really don't think they are quite on the same level as Jace. Jace is removal, powerful draw engine, disruption, and win-condition all in one. A draw-3 is tough to come back from, but it doesn't spell certain defeat like an unchallenged Jace does.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Unfortunately, the Khans tribe names make the difficult to read. Sultai is the only one I recognize at this point, but having to look at the spoiler just to figure out what Jeskai was was irritating. I do blame SCG for this, though.

    For now - I agree with the basic premise, if not the specific decks that these will be run in. I'm not sure about UR Delver - I've done some two fisted testing using with Burn, and it's perfectly happy so far to drop Lavamancer and Flame Rift while swapping 4 Moutains for 4 Volcs and running Treasure cruise. A reload button was something that Burn wanted, and it might've found it in Treasure Cruise. And if there was ever a deck that didn't care (or was even actively happy) that its opponent was going to board in Rest in Peace, it's Burn. I don't think that U/W is the right shell for Dig Through Time because Miracles has that angle solidly covered and Top + cantrips is probably better. I'm going to try it in BUG Control, and see what happens.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Sultai Delver
    Jeskai Delver
    Shardless Sultai
    "Šudlaj, žeskaj, vykrůcaj,
    len mi pecku nezrůcaj..."

    Frankly, that's where I stopped any careful reading and just rushed through the rest of the article.

  12. #12

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    "Šudlaj, žeskaj, vykrůcaj,
    len mi pecku nezrůcaj..."
    that's where my monitor got dirty =D


    I planned on halfway accepting RUG in next 2 years... clearly editor's world is too fast for me, I'll have to take a coding table, sextant and a time machine with me everytime I open an SCG article..

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloshthedark View Post
    I planned on halfway accepting RUG in next 2 years... clearly editor's world is too fast for me, I'll have to take a coding table, sextant and a time machine with me everytime I open an SCG article..
    I don't understand why we have to accept anything. It's not like anyone says "Dimir Griselbrand" or "Selesnya Toolbox".

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Those KTK wedge names. Stop it already, my brain hurts D:
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  15. #15

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Classic MTG the Source. Carsten writes a fantastic, format changing article and people quibble over names.

    @Carsten - After testing, I agree with you 100%. Imo though, these cards lead to more midrange/control strategies as Delver decks that draw Daze in the mid/late game have cards that don't matter. There is a balance though, because if people durdle and cantrip, decks like Storm get better.

    Level 1 is people with Cruise tooling on people without. Then, once it's adopted, the meta will probably balance out somewhere.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    Carsten writes a fantastic, format changing article
    This is something to be debated. In the meantime, forced adoption of the clan names drastically changes the flavor and, by extension, fun of the game in an unpleasant way, and is therefore something that truly does need to be discussed and protested.

  17. #17

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Go make a separate thread about it then. I personally see no problem with the new names. They are kind of foreign/different, but just because they are new doesn't mean we should oppose them.

    Also, Wizards isn't forcing anything. You can choose not to use the new names, just be aware a lot of other people will. And guess what, some of them might do it because they like it, not because they are "forced".

    But yeah, I think for Carsten's sake we should shift all discussion of that to a separate thread.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Ello summed up my thoughts on this in the first post. I do not see overcosted cards with late game use being anything more then limited in their effects on the format.

    As for the names, learning then new ones is a Sultai(er). (Get it? Yep lame and I had to look it up.)
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    Alright here's my try at it, sultai = BUG. Jeskai = Raka? Temur=RUG. And I can't remember the other two... Am I a winner yet?
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  20. #20

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

    I'd first like to state that it was another fantastic article Carsten, the kind that I have come to expect every week from you and you haven't disappointed yet. Anyway I only have limited experience playing with these cards so far but have played against them a good bit and they are very good. I think that a delver shell actually isn't the best place for them as even if you're drawing a bunch of cards it doesn't matter if it's the mid to late game as you're still drawing soft counters that may or may not be useless, though I do think BUG delver is a great shell as it tends to have a better lategame than its brethren depending on the build. Maybe UWR can take advantage of it but I think the best shell would probably be some sort of Deathblade deck, at least for the delverecall. I think the other is a lot more interesting, and the control deck you outlined in the article looked interesting, and seems like a great place to start, though I have no experience testing that one. I don't have any guesses as to how it will shake up the metagame but I do think that scavenging ooze becomes a lot better with the printing of these cards, and if the delverecall go's into midrange strategies, tarmogoyf will likely fight along side it, which makes ooze even better.

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