[Article]Eternal Europe: Khan's Dangerous Cards

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I have never actually heard anyone refer to the color combinations as Dega in real life (or any of the other Apoc names for that matter). I am pretty sure using the Apoc names is just something people started to say on the internet in an attempt to establish hipster cred.

+1 on never hearing that; and all that it takes to be sure on the bolded part is to check which users use that.

It's dumb that everyone is in here complaining about the name of the archetypes rather than the actual discussion points of the article. One can figure out what archetype he's talking about from the context clues alone...

I'm not going to figure anything. There are used names and shortcuts, I don't know why should I dick around a 256-cards spoiler to know what the article about Dega Through Time and Treaseru cruiser brings on the RUG Dlver. No way. I wouldn't start naming the established Legacy decks after random crap rare creatures that stink in my binder, coz you know, it's pretty ignorant towards the reader. One should do everything possible for the readers' convenience, and here we got an example of how it wasn't done because reasons. Yeah, it's not that bad as reading That Czech MtG Server where half of the people cannot write correctly so their sentecnes don't make any sense at all, but I still find it annoying and I'm not going to play by this rules. If it's "either subdue to our quirk or don't continue reading", then I got no trouble to click that little cross in the upper right.

Ib4 Fungal Shambler Delver. Go figure.


edit:

IDK just seems pathetic to get wrapped up in whether one calls BUG - BUG, Ana or Sultai, I can't see caring.

Perfect. Then lets don't care and call the thing BUG.

[menace13]

widely known as "Dega".

And wildly loved!

[lyracian]

None of the new names even stick. At least the Alara shards (as well as the Ravnica guilds) stuck. Might be because of a lack of flavor for players to identify with (not necessarily play with).

Dega/Italia/Mardu is just not a colour combination used much in Legacy. I think the real question though on names is who is pushing there usage? Is it Wizards who are trying to push the name for the Wedges or is is sites (like SCG, Hipsters) that are making the choice to use them for Wedge decks in there articles?

Shards names got picked up not only because they were easy to pronounce but the cards were also being used in Legacy (Hierarch, Knight, Nacatl, Pridemage) as well as standard. Ravnica guild names have been used a bit but a lot of decks tend to be known by a key card or mechanic such as Loam or Dredge vs Golgari deck. There has been various UW Control decks Miracles is just the latest iteration of Counter-Top. Current standard has Rabble Red after the new Goblin. Come next year we will have another set and new names for decks and I expect most of these Khan names will fade into the background.

[Barook]

I think the new Delve cards need to see playtesting first to realize how good they really are.

I think what people are missing is that you aren't forced to delve for maximum cost reduction. An Ancestral Recall for is still might fine, for example. Besides, useless copies can be shuffled away thanks to Brainstorm shenanigans. And, unlike Tombstalker, the old copy feeds another copy with - for the next Delve while mana is further developing, making them easier and easier to cast. Blue midrange and control decks probably benefit the most from it.

If those cards are as ridiculous as Carsten suggests, I wonder how much we're getting pushed into blue this time. Remember, we're at ~69% Brainstorm deck penetration right now. ~73% was the high of the Mental Misstep era. We aren't that far off from surpassing it.

[joretapo]

I agree with Carsten.

Ancestral recall is just powerful even as a one of so treasure cruise also is.

Dig trough time is double ponder at instant speed it is the big brother of the cantrip cartel. Instant speed makes it even cheaper than ponder in reactive decks (mainly control) Casting it at end of turn, you not only spend the mana open already for reaction (UU/W) but you also strategicaly only delve what is needed, leaving your graveyard filled as much as possible for the next Dig through time.

To me the question is which decks ? and how many? And i suspect that count, for dig through time at least, might not be that low.

i do not see dig through time living very long in modern :)

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Those cards can't be 4ofs in a deck unless it is built around them.

I think DTT is stronger than TC. Digging for FoW+Blue at instant speed for 2 Blue mana is pretty big. TC being sorcery is a bummer.

But since Delve cards eat up your Delve ressources I don't think even decks like UR-PyroDelver can support more than 2, 3 at the most and you might have to cut your Grim Lavamancers down.

What I would love to see is Legacy-Madness with these cards.

Come on Basking Rootwalla, Wild Mongrel, Arrogant Wurm. :)

Delver synergizes with Madness unless you play a lot of the Flashback stuff along with Madness. Maybe Treasure Cruise can be an egine for a Madness deck.

[HSCK]

I think the new Delve cards need to see playtesting first to realize how good they really are.

I think what people are missing is that you aren't forced to delve for maximum cost reduction. An Ancestral Recall for is still might fine, for example. Besides, useless copies can be shuffled away thanks to Brainstorm shenanigans. And, unlike Tombstalker, the old copy feeds another copy with - for the next Delve while mana is further developing, making them easier and easier to cast. Blue midrange and control decks probably benefit the most from it.

If those cards are as ridiculous as Carsten suggests, I wonder how much we're getting pushed into blue this time. Remember, we're at ~69% Brainstorm deck penetration right now. ~73% was the high of the Mental Misstep era. We aren't that far off from surpassing it.

I haven't a clue how you've reached the conclusion that we're at 69% Brainstorm meta when all the top tier decks together only have around 51% of the meta, including Elves, Jund, and Death and Taxes. Is this data for every single entrant or something from some event?

at 1-2 Mana draw three can just be backbreaking. Maybe too backbreaking in the long run.

[Matsaya]

http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE
Most played card : brainstorm = 66%

[HSCK]

http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE
Most played card : brainstorm = 66%

Oh yes, that data, the one that counts tournaments of all sizes, that makes sense.

[Barook]

Oh yes, that data, the one that counts tournaments of all sizes, that makes sense.

I was talking about placing decks in Top 8s, not the general meta. Brainstorm deck placing better on average is a different topic.

The main problem is these data are "polluted" with MTGO tournament results where nonblue decks can place easier due only being required to play 4 rounds. Consistency is less of an issue there compared to tournaments with more rounds.

Paper is much closer to ~69% in terms of Top 8 decks.

[Ellomdian]

Oh yes, that data, the one that counts tournaments of all sizes, that makes sense.

I love any statistical conclusion that lumps Infect in with Miracles, Shardless BUG, and Tide just because they all run Brainstorm. Or one that says we have an unhealthy format that stifles innovation. I guess you could try to say that if you knowingly don't play Brainstorm, you are handicapping yourself. That it's edging out other strategies that would be viable if Brainstorm didn't exist. That's why Elves and Burn don't see a lot of recent success.

What's that you say? I just listed the T8 of last week's SCG Open? Crap...

There's a part of me that would like to see Brainstorm banned for 3 months at this point because Elves will effectively annihilate the format, just to see the reactions from the people who have an unnatural dislike of the card.

<AHEM> Back to the Cards we were actually discussing...

[HSCK]

I was talking about placing decks in Top 8s, not the general meta. Brainstorm deck placing better on average is a different topic.

The main problem is these data are "polluted" with MTGO tournament results where nonblue decks can place easier due only being required to play 4 rounds. Consistency is less of an issue there compared to tournaments with more rounds.

Paper is much closer to ~69% in terms of Top 8 decks.

No it's not, I just posted an update showing that to to be far from true.

[force_of_phil]

I think the new Delve cards need to see playtesting first to realize how good they really are.

I think what people are missing is that you aren't forced to delve for maximum cost reduction. An Ancestral Recall for is still might fine, for example. Besides, useless copies can be shuffled away thanks to Brainstorm shenanigans. And, unlike Tombstalker, the old copy feeds another copy with - for the next Delve while mana is further developing, making them easier and easier to cast. Blue midrange and control decks probably benefit the most from it.

The question for me is whether decks want to be doing this as their payoff. Drawing cards is great, but since you're casting a bunch of cantrips to set these up, you've already seen a lot of cards. There's only so much time/mana to spend playing with one's library. As Carsten noted, running all those cantrips plus 4 cruise makes for a very "airy" deck. For now, I see these cards playing a similar role to Sylvan Library, particularly in non-green decks. One in the main, and maybe another in the side as a boost in grindy matches. Maybe they will be fluid enough to break this mold, but that's where I would start.

[Finn]

Carsten being the one who performed the tests and the rest of us voicing opinions about it makes very little sense. If your input is something like "I tested this too and...", by all means let us hear your opinions. If you are coming from a place that starts with an uninformed opinion, your words are barely north of totally useless.

So...I tested this and I came to a similar conclusion as Carsten with some important caveats. Some of my notes.

-I only tested Treasure Cruise, four of them.
-I used a stock RUG list with the Treasure Cruises in the flex slots. It left me with no versatility, so this is likely to not be a final version for anyone.
-I found the first to be very castable. I found the second to be difficult to cast if I had two in the early turns, and I frequently wanted to shuffle one away.
-I found that getting the second one mid to late game was a very powerful effect.
-I felt that the deck was more powerful by a palpable amount in games when I resolved two of them.
-I felt that the deck was about the same power level when I cleared my graveyard to cast this card and drew another one in the three. After thinking about it, I figure that 2 cards for U is still a good deal, especially since you can pitch the "dead" copy to FoW.
-I faced Elves, DnT, mirror, Miracles.
-The card was best against other blue decks due to the Tarmos. (I quickly took the Mongeese out.) ...but...
-It hurts quite a bit when it gets countered. I am guessing that this card's presence in a deck is going to fundamentally change the way we play against that deck when we have counterspells available. When it resolves it is huge win. When it gets countered, it feels like an equally as huge loss. So, in reference to the above point, I think that, despite Carsten's results showing that it can be seamlessly be added to existing archetypes (this is perfectly awful news, btw), the card will be better in the ones that don't get double screwed by losing their graveyard while not getting the cards. I'm thinking the Blue White Red decks with Mystics. But somebody please clean up that greedy mana base.
-RiP was effective hate.

EDIT: I meant to mention somewhere that the delve cost of 7 does not really act like 7 after the first one. You draw some cards and then promptly fetch a land and cast a cantrip. It is just a few turns before you are back in business.

[TsumiBand]

I'm glad people are actually testing this instead of jawflapping it away as a crap common.

By the way, if WotC had any idea how potent the card was for old formats -- LOL at printing it at common, for so many reasons.

The fact that it is still a great draw spell at is not surprising, though it does make me wonder why it is being treated as such a hard ask in Vintage. Perhaps because Mana Drain is a real thing. Meh? Time to board in Plasm Capture and crush fase?

In seriousness, I dunno about introducing a playable Blue draw 3, especially when realizing that as a Delve card, it could just have easily been Black instead of slipping into the color that just happens to have excellent draw already. Still, a cheap (in cost and cost) draw 3 has appeal and I look forward to throwing it into my jank train wrecks of budget decks.

[Meekrab]

The fact that it is still a great draw spell at is not surprising, though it does make me wonder why it is being treated as such a hard ask in Vintage.

Things that cost the same amount of mana in vintage:

- Replaying my entire graveyard and oh yeah, you die.
- Putting an 11/11 Indestructible Infect Trample into play and oh yeah, you die.
- Reshuffling our decks and/or just discarding our hands and drawing 7 cards and oh yeah, you die.

In Vintage "draw three cards" is "worth" somewhere around ~.5U.

[TsumiBand]

Things that cost the same amount of mana in vintage:

- Replaying my entire graveyard and oh yeah, you die.
- Putting an 11/11 Indestructible Infect Trample into play and oh yeah, you die.
- Reshuffling our decks and/or just discarding our hands and drawing 7 cards and oh yeah, you die.

In Vintage "draw three cards" is "worth" somewhere around ~.5U.

Oh fer chrissake, like I never heard of Tinker before :P :P

They also play JTMS in Vintage - the fuck that's all about, it isn't even a good Oath of Druids target. NOTHING MAKES SENSE

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

The UR deck seems pretty sweet actually, not gonna lie

That said, this article makes me want to shove this into food chain, because what's better than drawing three cards, randomly drawing 4 cause your opponent bolted your Misthollow griffin

[ivanpei]

Delve recall will see play for sure. As someone who picked up foil JTMS immediately during worldwake, I'm generally an open minded early adopter.

However it won't see play on every blue deck. It's most effective as a 2-3 off in certain decks that don't have a use for the yard and can dump cards into the yard rather quickly.

Uwr delver is one and I will be testing them in Grim Lavamancer's spot. It's good, cheap mid game gas for the deck and the delve doesn't affect Uwr much.
It's not very good in miracles because miracles already has a lot of late game gas and alot of dead early game cards like entreat.
Combo cannot benefit from these cards in the md. This is because these probably come online turns 5-6 which is when you want to be comboing and not durdling around.

The best idea I've read is the Burn argument. Burn dumps a crap load of cards into the yard very fast. There are already blue burn lists floating around so it's very easy to chuck a few delve recalls in there. I'd honestly play 4 Delve recalls with 4 brainstorms and 3 Fireblasts.

[Lemnear]

I'm glad people are actually testing this instead of jawflapping it away as a crap common.

By the way, if WotC had any idea how potent the card was for old formats -- LOL at printing it at common, for so many reasons.

The fact that it is still a great draw spell at is not surprising, though it does make me wonder why it is being treated as such a hard ask in Vintage. Perhaps because Mana Drain is a real thing. Meh? Time to board in Plasm Capture and crush fase?

In seriousness, I dunno about introducing a playable Blue draw 3, especially when realizing that as a Delve card, it could just have easily been Black instead of slipping into the color that just happens to have excellent draw already. Still, a cheap (in cost and cost) draw 3 has appeal and I look forward to throwing it into my jank train wrecks of budget decks.

Just imagine the price if it was a rare or Mythic and proofes itself a Legacy playable. I'm glad it's just a common for everyone to pick up and try. Vintage has the Problem of being pretty fast and permanent-based in regards of mana (VaCrySoLoMoxen) and most potent cantrips being restricted. In Legacy, you can fill your graveyard fast with Fetchlands and cantrips to fire off the first Treasure Cruise quickly unlike in Vintage, where it is either too slow to matter and/or your graveyard too empty. Dark Confidant is a Vintage staple for carddrawing just because of that.

I agree with the Sentiment that it's iffy that blue got 2 insane Delve drawspells in a single set while black got only junk once more. The 6 mana destory target creature is a joke compared to the 8 mana Ancestral Recall.

P.S. Hey WotC, what about a Delve Tutor or Ritual?

P.P.S. Tested Treasure Cruise in the Wishboard of TES. It's naughty every time you have to go for attrition wars against discard and counter. Castable turn 3 - 4 to fuel Tutor chains