The stated reasoning is, AFAICT, pretty sound actually. It's ultimately more intuitive and makes better sense to allow these mechanics to pay for the spell rather than reduce the cost.
I'm kind of a fan of changes that utilize the same concepts to attain multiple outcomes -- it beats the hell out of jamming weird rules in to make things do what other things already do (ohai Strive, I dint see u there). If the act of paying mana for a spell can be hidden in Convoke, and it works as it did under 95% of in-game situations previously, hey so much the better.702.50 Convoke
I don't remember exactly how the conversation started, but one day a few months ago R&D ended up talking about how weird it was that you could "overtap" when casting a spell using convoke. That was weird, past-me thought, so I started thinking about ways to change that. As a cost-reduction ability, it couldn't really be contained. You can make a spell cost a billion mana less if you want to. I sought the advice of Rules Manager Emeritus Mark Gottlieb. Together, we came up with a new paradigm for convoke: what if instead of reducing the cost, tapping creatures was just another way of paying mana?
So now it is! You don't declare which creatures you're tapping ahead of time, just like you don't declare what lands you'll be tapping ahead of time. When it comes time to pay the spell's costs (rule 601.2g), you can tap creatures rather than pay mana. Note that this is after you have a chance to activate mana abilities (rule 601.2f). This means that if you intend to sacrifice a creature to activate a mana ability, you can't also tap that creature for convoke.
702.65 Delve
Once we worked out the details of convoke, changing delve in a similar manner was natural.
Plus, you know, now that Prohibit isn't nearly as strong against Chord of Calling decks, it's only a matter of time before Brainstorm-driven decks are entirely driven out of the format by big expensive Green spells. Yissssss.
Originally Posted by Dissection
What does this even mean?
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
It means it's real good against those Standstill decks
Except that we now have two kinds of alternative cost - the convoke/delve kind and everything else, and from an aesthetic perspective if there's any mechanic that should be considered an alternative mana payment rather than a cost reduction, then it's phyrexian mana.
Alright, I finally have the time to actually catch up on the thread. I won't give as many detailed answers to every post as I usually try to do because, well, I'd still be here next year ;)
It's funny to read through the thread as a whole now. Much talk about Sultai et;al in the beginning, then some toning down of the hype (and I freely admit I'm quite hyped about both of these. Drawing cards is sweet.) and finally others coming back with test results (some of which mirror mine, others which don't exactly) and now most posts seem to have turned to the "oh god, what are these cards going to do to the format exactly?" craze I've been in for more than a week now. Anyway, some more useful feedback:
@Sultai &Co: Not my idea, made me cringe just as much as it did you guys when I went over the posted version of the article, trust me. Nothing I can do about the change however.
@Finn: Well, why am I not surprised to see you're one of the first people to really test them instead of using your gut feeling *g*. Happy to see they've been just as nutty for you as they've been for me. Faithless Looting sounds like it might be going a little too far though - I guess having four Ancestrals means the card selection makes the Careful Study effect better than something card-neutral like Mental Note?
@Dig vs Cruise: Both are incredibly powerful, no question, and as mentioned in the article, I think which one to use depends on the deck at hand. Control/Midrange and slow (more on that below) Combo decks will want dig, anything reasonably aggressive or quite redundant is probably better of with Cruise.
@Dig/Cruise in combo: I don't think the cards are a valid choice for Storm or Sneak and Show (maybe as a Wish-target in TES - good idea, Lem) simply because the turn you can usually enable it if you put your mind to it lies somewhere between three and four. At that point you generally don't want to be fiddling with your library, you want your opponent dead. Once you commonly plan to go to turn 4 (High Tide, Solidarity, OmniShow, etc) Dig suddenly becomes ridiculously good (yes, I've done a little bit of testing with tweaked versions of both Solidarity and High Tide just for the heck of it). Not sure if it's enough to bring those decks back to the forefront of the format but definitely something to keep in mind. Solidarity really seems to love Dig, btw, too bad you can't wish for exiled cards any more.
@Fighting Dig/Cruise: Dedicated gravevard hate like RIP isn't a good way to fight these, for the same reason Chains of Mephistopheles and Spirit of the Labyrinth aren't all over the format. You spend a card to potentially hurt your opponent's draw engine. Note that drawing cards, while incredibly sweet and powerful, is almost never what a deck actuall does. If you spend your time fighting their draw engine, their normal cards they play instead will just end up killing you.
Relic is a little different because it cycles but it's also pretty bad at fighting the delve spells. The tap ability will have a lot of trouble keeping graveyards empty once people reach 3+ mana and cracking it means a little careful hand/fetchland on table management can easily result in Delve being enabled again basically a turn later. This is a format in which playing 3 spells a turn and cracking a Fetchland is the norm, after all. In addition you also can't wait for too long to crack your Relic as otherwise they might just Delve before you even decide to empty their yard (especially with Dig being instant speed).
In my opinion by far the best way to fight these spells is to counter them. It eats up the full Delve investment and keeps the opponent from the expected refuel to enable the next copy. I fully expect maindeck Pyroblast to be a real thing a month from now as a result (Pyroblast not REB because you can just dump Pyro to enable your own delve in a pinch).
@Trinisphere rules change: Good to know, I was aware of the Thalia (etc) interaction but didn't get the memo about the new functionality of Delver. That's pretty random, actually, and quite powerful when it comes up (even if that''s going to be very rarely).
@Combo taking advantage if Delver & co play Cruise: Look at the cards you're likely to cut into for these cards. If I'm playing ANT I'd much rather my opponent drew a three or four mana Planeswalker than a Treasure Cruise. Playing one of those options likely gets them killed unless they already have full control of the game anyway, the other draws them into more disruption with two or three mana open. Go figure.
If there's anything I forgot to address, let me know and I'll get back to you. Oh, and by the way, thanks everybody for reading and participating in the discussion. You guys are awesome :)
/edit: Btw, does that rules change also mean you can't just delve away your whole yard any more should you want to do so for some reason?
Last edited by Mon,Goblin Chief; 09-22-2014 at 10:56 PM.
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Hey, I sure didn't say it was perfect.
Y'all know me, I ramble at length about the idiocy of creating a game-state where the dynamic changes from "Destroy target creature" to "Vote on a creature you control to be exiled" because it's a redundant system that also creates weaknesses in several other legitimate lines of play while forsaking the mechanics that the game operated on for like twenny yrrrs prior. But this kind of stuff is probably like shoring up bad code, right -- you fix the stuff you know about, but it isn't until some other module breaks that you go "FUCK I FORGOT ABOUT AFFINITY OHHH BOB SAGET" and refactor the thing that breaks the system.
Why Phyrexian mana specifically hadn't been touched when it is, in fact, a mana symbol on a card and would thus make logical sense as "a kind of mana" moreso than punting cards from the trash, I do not know for sure. I guess let's grab torches and pitchforks and go make Tom La Pille's life suck until he talks Sam Stoddard into getting Tabak to fix it? vOv
So, with a significant amount of further testing under my belt, I've definitely jumped onto the [deserved] hype train. Treasure Cruise has proven itself to push Tempo decks into an even HIGHER tier of competitive dominance. I would not be surprised to see it banned come the next Set rotation. This card may see a similar amount of play as Mental Misstep did in its hey-day, making the format devolve into Delver vs. The World. I guess we will at least get one GP of play out of it in Jersey.
The arguments in favor of it have mostly been outlined ad nauseam in this thread and in the article, but here are some of my personal observations:
1. Playing 4 copies is the right call. You want to cast this card every game, ideally twice or thrice. Playing it "safe" by only running 2 or 3 copies makes it much less likely for you to hit one at the critical moment, which generally speaking is right around turn 3/4 -- the turning point of most Legacy games, and also when you're in range of casting the card. Outside of unlikely scenarios like having 3 copies in your opening hand or whatever, it is fairly easy to cast multiple copies in each game. Additional copies can be manipulated away via cantrips and pitching to Force, so Rest in Peace aside I've never had trouble casting it.
2. Tempo decks (Daze, FoW, Ponder, Bstorm, Delver, Wasteland) is obviously the correct shell for Treasure Cruise. Maybe UGx Infect would be good too. I have not given Dig Through Time much testing, but my suspicion is that it's better in dedicated Control or possibly Combo. The fact that you can play Cruise for 1 mana and then have a few more open mana sources afterwards to deploy your freshly drawn threats is extremely relevant. Also, since Tempo decks tend to run a bunch of redundant threats, Drawing 3 blind is nearly as/sometimes more powerful than the best 2 from the top 7 like DTT. However, I will fully admit to needing to give Dig some testing... but I find it somewhat difficult to believe that it would dethrone Cruise in UXx Tempo.
3. I think it may be worth running additional 'Pitch' cards like Misdirection, (maybe) Commandeer, Pyrokinesis, etc. to take advantage of all the card advantage and generate insane tempo. Land Grant could be another way of feeding your graveyard while still being a 'Land' slot (just don't get Dazed!). However, I think there's no real need to make a bunch of concessions to fuel Cruise; like Tarmogoyf, the card rewards you for simply playing the game. I think it's best use is to make an already powerful shell even stronger, not necessarily to build a deck around drawing a ton of cards (cause then what..? You need to kill your opponent somehow.) This is why it slots in perfectly with BUG, UR, and UWR Delver. RUG and BURG might need to make some modifications, but I'm not so sure that the power of Nimble Mongoose outweighs Cruising.
4. Shardless Agent -> Ancestral Vision seems kind of pointless when you can just play Team America with 4 Treasure Cruise. I would expect BUG Control decks to modify their approach and incorporate Dig or Cruise for card advantage.
5. There is *some* minor strategic tension with running Goyf, DRS, and Cruise all in one deck, especially if your opponent is playing a similar strategy. But it's not usually relevant given how quickly graveyards get filled up, Rest in Peace aside. DRS is still going to be the best 1-drop in Legacy by a mile.
6. My guess is UW(r) is probably going to be the best shell for Cruise. Equipment mops up creature decks, the sideboard options are strong and can fight just about anything, and unlike BUG its threats don't require a graveyard to power them up. Additionally, if an opponent decides to hate on your Treasure Cruising, they are pretty much just wasting slots to fight a small portion of your deck and are ignoring the part that actually kills them. Win-win.
7. DRS, Relic of Progenitus, Scavenging Ooze (in Elves) and Rest in Peace are pretty much the only cards that seem efficient and broad enough to "hate" on Cruise without being too narrow. I'd guess that UWr Miracles might go back to running the Helm Combo as a finisher instead of Entreat. Stuff like Notion Thief is pretty slow but could be okay in a BUG mirror. Non-blue decks can try to run anti-draw spells, but they will continue to lose in multi-round tournaments due to their own inconsistencies. Not only that, but running 1-of copies of Dread of Night or Sulfur Elemental in the SB is feasible if you're going to be blasting through half your deck in a typical game. Or, Darkblast helps fuel it.
Alright, that's enough for now. Any doubters that remain should really go ahead and test the card and see for themselves. Treasure Cruise is the real deal.
I also like that this is going to be nicknamed Tom Cruise and/or players will be Cruising. This is me every time I resolve it:
Pleasure Cruise
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I'll be playing a Dack Fayden / Notion Thief brew in the near future (while running my own delve cards).
I gave treasure cruise some brief testing in Deathblade. It was the nuts. It basically turned the deck into shardless BUG but without having to play bad cards, or not play good 1-2cmc cards. I think people are right: Dig in draw-go control and slow combo. Cruise in redundant tempo/midrange decks. I am still skepitical about these cards being 4 ofs. 3 seemed perfect for cruise, but I will try 4 as well. I don't think Dig should be a 4 of though.
Thought the same. Eventhough Dack is not as good in legacy as in vintage his +1 is incredible in a deck with TC or DTT and Notion Thief combo is terrific. Notion Thief will also be in general great in the meta to play against Treasure Cruise. Sure it costs 4 mana but Treasure Cruise is going to be played on turn 3-6 and the decks playing it won't be super fast.
Grixis seems like a great spot for Treasure Cruise anyway. Even Grixis Tempo although replacing Dark Confidant with Treasure Cruise gets you very close to dropping black splash completely or only playing it for Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize.
The one thing I don't hear mentioned enough is that Dig through Time has a few more distinct advantages over Treasure Cruise that might be relevant when playing real tournaments with these cards and not just testing.
DTT is Instant which is obviously great.
DTT can be cast in respond to find Force of Will or Misdirection plus another blue card. If you run blue you likely would have 4 Force of Will, 1 Misdirection and 4 DTT/TC. The chance to find one of these combos is pretty good when you dig 7.
If DTT had the same mana cost I'd say it is clearly better. Being UU at least will probably keep it out of triple color decks but in dual color it might still be better than Treasure Cruise. Maybe instead of playing 4 Treasure Cruise running a split of 3 Treasure Cruise and 1-2 Dig Through Time produces better results.
There are definitely some "obscure cards with latent potential" if Treasure Cruise becomes a real thing.
I could see this putting Dryad Militant over the top. It already makes life hard on:
Deathrite Shaman
Punishing Fire
Cabal Therapy
Dread Return
Snapcaster Mage
Lingering Souls
Grim Lavamancer
Tarmogoyf
Life from the Loam
Nimble Mongoose
Past in Flames
It's weak against Miracles and Elves, though. Luckily, it's in the same colors as Gaddock Teeg. I also think Treasure Cruise's presence answers the question of why Spirit of the Labyrinth was in Theros block.
Of course, the real question is how the Spirit/Militant/Teeg deck beats True-Name Nemesis.
How does DM help against PFire? It just gets killed and if Pfire already is in the GY, it does nothing.
"if an instant or sorcery card deals lethal damage to Dryad Militant, Dryad Militant will remain on the battlefield until the next time state-based actions are checked, which is after the instant or sorcery finishes resolving. The instant or sorcery will be exiled."
That and you could have Mom, or equipment, or it could be dredged/discarded there.
UU really isn't a problem for BUG (or *blade, I'd guess) - BUG Control and Shardless already run Jace and Liliana, and Delver/Team America runs either TNN or Liliana. Blade decks run Lili and Jace (as well as Counterspell).
I don't think decks necessarily need to be Draw-Go or Combo to run Dig - I've been testing it in BUG Control where I've been very happy with Dig and (preliminarily) prefer it to Cruise. I've always been sort of let down by Visions in Shardless because sometimes you just draw dead cards like Abrupt Decay on an empty board, Hymn against a hellbent opponent, or more Ancestral Visions. The selectivity that Dig provides more than makes up for the additional 1 mana and 1 fewer card, and unlike TC it clears more chaff off of the top. I think that in an even slightly-grindy deck I'd rather have Dig because of the card quality issue.
mom helps you walk past TNNs fwiw.
Any %'s you gain by playing hate cards and not playing the unmulligan'ing effects of the blue cantrips are probably not worth it over 8+ rounds. You'll get 2 bad unfixable hands and lose twice while your blue cantripping opponents fix their bad opens and continue the blue love in. If enough people play junk hate somebody will bust through but similar to chalice decks not enough of the field plays them to dent top 8's because of the internal inconsistency over a long event.
How good of a standard or modern deck could be built around Steam Augury and Treasure Cruise?
I think Terminus is the way bigger problem here, since they will find a way to get rid of Teeg otherwise.
SFM/SoFaI and the DD combo with KotR back-up seem like viable choices to fight TNN.
Edit: Also, Council's Judgment.
A Junk shell supports all 3 critters and also gives access to LotV and Golgari Charm main list. You just don't use the -1/-1 option on charm with a hate bear out unless you have no choice, as in a Jitte or SoFI is being equipped on TNN or the game state demands it for other reasons. SB options that do not hit your 1 toughness hate bears include Marsh Casualties and Zealous Persecution. If you're playing Dark Confidant main list for card advantage then you can also probably justify a couple of Innocent Blood in the main list.
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