Jeskai Ascendency Combo

[Mystical_Jackass]

I hate to throw it out there, but 'cause the deck looks so similar... any reason not to toss in NO-->Proj?

[Daize]

Try to find a multicoloured card advantage spell for your sideboard to wish for, just in case.

[ReAnimator]

Abeyance

^This!

I was thinking about this deck in Legacy as well, and then found this thread. Glad someone brought up this card, it seems like everything you would ever want to be doing in this deck, shuts off Decay, counters, and still helps you going off as well, total slam dunk. I think you could still run 1 Xantid as a GSZ target, but i think you want 4 x Abeyance for sure.
I also think 4x Caryatid is necessary, shuts down so many opposing cards that can stop you.

I can understand a lot of people being sceptical about this deck in legacy, having seen it in action in Modern it is waaaayyy better against disruption than you would think, it is really strong and flexible against hate. Obviously the barrier to entry is really high in Legacy, but this has a ton of power and flexibility and the fact that your combo pieces aren't dead cards but actually help you set up and accelerate is super strong. Not 100% saying this is going to be a format staple, but i wouldn't be suprised at all if this ends up being a viable deck in the format, there have been way way worse combo decks that have been fringe playable before that are way below this on the power and durability scale.

[apple713]

@ valtrix

You need to identify a few things for us (people making recommendations).

1. Identify the Variable card slots so people making suggestions know where to look first.
2. Identify the deck's shortcomings. Does the deck need consistency in finding the combo? Does it have trouble chaining spells together? Does it need more mana creatures? does it have a hard time recovering from creature removal?


suggestions
-1 treasure cruise - there are 2 problems here, its conditional which decreases consistency, and this is a win more card if you are really in a situation where you NEED to draw 3 cards and hope to come out victorious, you are probably not going to win anyways.
-1 preordain - addition win con is better (SDT)
+2 Sensei's divining top - per our discussion

-3 mana confluence - fetch lands serve 3 purposes, they get you what colors you need, and they decrease the fluff you will draw when you are trying to combo off. Additionally they work better with brainstorm/ponder.
+2 fetchlands - ^
+1 dryad arbor - per our discussion


@ rufus

enlightened tutor seems good but the card disadvantage hurts. Glittering Wish is better imo.

As for your other suggestions, I'm surprised that the shitty cards that they are actually serve good purposes. The issue from here is narrowing down what is more important because as you can tell the deck is lacking variable slots....

When thinking about cards to add to the deck you have to ask the following questions

1. Does this help me find the combo? Step 1
2. Does this help me dig once the combo is out? Step 2
3. Does this generate some sort of card advantage that can be used? step 3
4. Is this card conditional or am i just gonna want it in case that has a small chance of occurring?
*5. Does this card better at what it does than a card already included?
EDIT*

Brainstorm, ponder, preordain are ideal, they answer positive to all the above questions (1) yes (2) yes (3) yes (4) no

Possible inclusions - we need to know what the deck is lacking before we start jamming these specific cards into the deck.

postmortem lunge - (maybe) (1) no (2) sorta, free spell but no real card advantage (3) it gives you another mana producing creature that is unaffected by summoning sickness. (4) yes conditional because you need a creature in grave
animate land - (maybe) this card is trash normally, but in here its great, it triggers jeskai, it gives you another mana producing creature that is unaffected by summoning sickness. This is great for when you are in the middle of chaining and for if you need to recover from opponent killing creatures. Only issue is do we need more mana or is it mainly just to recover from creature loss / in place of?
and grant - (maybe) (1) no (2) no (3) sorta, its a free spell that cantrips poorly, similar to tithe, thins and feeds jeskai (4) requires a green land, but not as conditional, better if you missed a land drop
noxious revival - (maybe) (1) no (2) sorta, free spell but no real card advantage (3) this gets your most advantageous card in grave in hopes to generate advantage (4) yes you have to have the card in grave for this to be relevant.

tithe - (no) (1) no (2) no (3) maybe if you haven't played a land drop, and gives you cards to feed to jeskai, and thins deck (4) yes conditional. probably not enough upside to include
verdant touch - (no) more mana intensive than animate land and they buyback while nice is too expensive to take advantage of.
burning wish - (no) this doesn't answer yes to any of the above questions...
laboratory maniac - (no) you should win well before you chain your entire deck
past in flames - (no) great card, too mana intensive, the deck really wants to only need 1 mana producer to be able to start chaining spells

Substitutes for Xantid swarm / additional sideboard cards
abeyance - (maybe) serves similar purpose as xantid swarm but cannot be GSZ'd out. Cant be killed. More mana intensive than other options.
orim's chant (maybe) ^
silence (maybe) ^


welder and study are more for a graveyard approach that only weakens the deck. fate stitcher has been addressed previously.




EDIT***

I started gold fishing with the deck and noticed a few things

its incredibly important that a spell cantrips. multiple jeskai's help but aren't necessary.

Having spells that only cost 1 mana reduces the need for more than 1 mana producing creature.

having 2 SDT just wins, while may not be necessary it eliminates the possibility of fizzle. In the event that you only have 1 but can produce more than 1 mana each spell, you get to look at top 3 every spell which is incredibly helpful when you cast things blindly, like gitaxian probe, gsz, or glittering wish.

the only thing i havent been able to test is if my creatures are getting killed / and if once they are pumped they can attack? i guess through infinite chaining i can just glittering wish for something, a storm spell or creature unblock able, idk.

[rufus]

...
-1 Treasure Cruise
...
its incredibly important that a spell cantrips. multiple jeskai's help but aren't necessary.

I think that cards which have good potential provide real card advantage like Obsessive Search,Tithe and Treasure Cruise are particularly interesting. If those are too conditional maybe something like Ideas Unbound..

Another category of cantrips is the chromatic/egg familiy

[Daize]

Ideas Unbound is a great one. Also, when your hand isn't that full at all, it seems difficult to keep the flow going. In that case, hitting a Treasure Cruise is amazing. Ideas Unbound is an interesting one but seems a bit too much of a "while you're winning" card, else it seems bad. Though what the heck, try stuff out!

[apple713]

I think that cards which have good potential provide real card advantage like Obsessive Search,Tithe and Treasure Cruise are particularly interesting. If those are too conditional maybe something like Ideas Unbound..

Another category of cantrips is the chromatic/egg familiy

Ideas unbound is probably the best suggestion because unlike treasure cruise it is not conditional and since you plan to win on the turn you cast it its drawback is irrelevant. My concern is that it cost 2 which could be an issue but because the advantage is so great it might be worth it.

When considering chromatic star / egg and tithe consider whether or not they serve a purpose relevant to the decks objective, and if what they do is better than what is already included. In consideration of those factors they probably do not warrant a spot.

Obsessive search is interesting because it fills the role of card advantage but that advantage is blind, you can't ensure the card you draw is useful. Having too many spells like this will decrease the consistency and you will end up fizzling with lands and creatures in hand.

[why]

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Manamorphose
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Glittering Wish
3 Jeskai Ascendancy

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sylvan Caryatid

15 lands
3 Lotus Petal

This list is sweet and I think it's way better than the one in the op.

- Lotus Petal is extremely good here, it increases your turn two win percentage by a lot, generates a bunch of mana, is playable during the combo, and is mana positive with Ascendancy out. There's some downside, but this is a deck that goes off fairly quickly- there's not much reason to bother having many lands in play. The correct number might not be four, but it is definitely greater than zero.
- The main upsides of the modern list are Sylvan Caryatid and Treasure Cruise. Those cards offer the ability to have a unkillable mana dork and give you the ability to grind out games against opponents that can disrupt you. I want to be playing more of them, and I'm certainly playing all four Caryatids before I touch a card like Green Sun's Zenith and I think I'm playing too few Treasure Cruise.
- Daze is a good card, but you can play a different interactive spell if you really want. Daze is at least something you can cast on your own spell and pay for to get a "free" loot while comboing off, which is why I chose it. I'm not sure how many interactive spells you can actually play- there's a chance these should just be cantrips, because you need a certain density when comboing and this might be too low. You can definitely stretch the number a little bit more if your non-cantrip cards contribute to the combo somewhat, like Daze.

Any card that requires Jeskai Ascendancy and a mana dork to be in play to be good is awful. You have to understand that having both in play with a mana floating is a won game. You don't need anything else. Sensei's Divining Top is an expensive and slow card before you are going off and it doesn't matter what it is after you go off. I think the card is just outclassed by Treasure Cruise at this point, except in decks that are heavily synergistic with top or very reliant on the graveyard (and this is neither). Bloom Tender is awful because there's no reason to go bigger than just a mana dork + ascendancy.

I think the direction this thread is taking the deck in isn't very good.

[Darkenslight]

Alternatives include playing a ton of 0-and-1-cost spells, given that the Ascendancy triggers on cast, rather than on resolution. That way, you can probably chain into a huge Grapeshot or two as win conditions.

[ivanpei]

I would prefer to run a slower but more resistant build with 4 Caryatids and 4 GSZ. Zero birds and zero Heirarch. This makes the deck creature removal resistant. Then pack stuff like Force/Abeyance etc like a regular combo deck. Trying to win past removal AND counters seems very difficult. Has the same issues ala painter except this deck doesn't have moons of Chalice.

[zulander]

I would prefer to run a slower but more resistant build with 4 Caryatids and 4 GSZ. Zero birds and zero Heirarch. This makes the deck creature removal resistant. Then pack stuff like Force/Abeyance etc like a regular combo deck. Trying to win past removal AND counters seems very difficult. Has the same issues ala painter except this deck doesn't have moons of Chalice.

What would be your win condition?

[Valtrix]

I can understand a lot of people being sceptical about this deck in legacy, having seen it in action in Modern it is waaaayyy better against disruption than you would think, it is really strong and flexible against hate. Obviously the barrier to entry is really high in Legacy, but this has a ton of power and flexibility and the fact that your combo pieces aren't dead cards but actually help you set up and accelerate is super strong. Not 100% saying this is going to be a format staple, but i wouldn't be suprised at all if this ends up being a viable deck in the format, there have been way way worse combo decks that have been fringe playable before that are way below this on the power and durability scale.

Exactly this.

What would be your win condition? [with only Sylvan Caryatids]

In terms of winning outside of combat, this is what Flesh // Blood is for out of the wishboard.

I would prefer to run a slower but more resistant build with 4 Caryatids and 4 GSZ. Zero birds and zero Heirarch. This makes the deck creature removal resistant. Then pack stuff like Force/Abeyance etc like a regular combo deck. Trying to win past removal AND counters seems very difficult. Has the same issues ala painter except this deck doesn't have moons of Chalice.

Running no birds or hierarch definitely sounds like an interesting approach. You'd want to include at least one to GSZ for X = 1 still, but overall it's a really interesting idea. I like it though. 11-12 mana dorks is still a large number though. part of why Painter struggles is that they don't have access to many painters and the card is just bad by itself. Mana creatures really let you do so much early you can afford to run a lot of them and not feel bad.

I found an interesting SB card to potentially replace Kiora's Follower: Life // Death. Turning a wish into a potential win right away seems powerful. In general there are also the animate land enchantments (Wind Zendikon, Genju of the falls and company). In general I don't like these cards, but they are worth at least knowing about.

Arbor elf is actually really awkward and doubly so because it's only forests he untaps. It's really helpful to have your mana dorks make colored mana not tied to your lands. This helps you against wasteland and helps color consistency. Being a 4-color deck this is quite important. This is why Bloom Tender is actually not good, because it doesn't make any colors you don't already have.

As for Abeyance, that was actually the very first card I wanted to test in the shell. I found that in practice though it was pretty awkward. First off, 2 mana for a cantrip meant it got clogged in my hand when I wanted to combo off. But secondly, asking for 1W + WRB + U (cantrip) on your combo turn is a lot of mana to ask. I think playing a pro-active or cheap spell is probably the best way to go, but I'm really not sure the best protection/long term advantage direction that this deck should go.

Really not sure about Lotus Petals. I'm not sure how much they would actually increase speed. I tend to prefer more resiliency overall with consistent mana sources, but I'm not willing to dismiss them completely. 4 seems like a lot though.

I think treasure cruise might actually have a place in lieu of some protection. I think drawing into three cards to fight attrition might be another viable tactic relative to just protecting the original spells. I'm not completely sure. It's hard because it definitely slows you down any way you slice it.

@apple

I really liked your post, thank you. This is exactly how I approach deck building and how I think more people should critically approach it. By asking what my deck needs and what I might be abe to play to fill in those slots. I think what would be useful is to identify the pieces that we really want or need, and see the room to build from there. I would do it now, but I have some work I need to get done before I can really sit down and tinker with this deck anymore. Sideboarding feels particularly difficult to me as well since everything does so many similar things and it's not clear exactly what needs helping out currently.

[apple713]

Exactly this.



In terms of winning outside of combat, this is what Flesh // Blood is for out of the wishboard.



Running no birds or hierarch definitely sounds like an interesting approach. You'd want to include at least one to GSZ for X = 1 still, but overall it's a really interesting idea. I like it though. 11-12 mana dorks is still a large number though. part of why Painter struggles is that they don't have access to many painters and the card is just bad by itself. Mana creatures really let you do so much early you can afford to run a lot of them and not feel bad.

I found an interesting SB card to potentially replace Kiora's Follower: Life // Death. Turning a wish into a potential win right away seems powerful.

As for Abeyance, that was actually the very first card I wanted to test in the shell. I found that in practice though it was pretty awkward. First off, 2 mana for a cantrip meant it got clogged in my hand when I wanted to combo off. But secondly, asking for 1W + WRB + U (cantrip) on your combo turn is a lot of mana to ask. I think playing a pro-active or cheap spell is probably the best way to go, but I'm really not sure the best protection/long term advantage direction that this deck should go.

Really not sure about Lotus Petals. I'm not sure how much they would actually increase speed. I tend to prefer more resiliency overall with consistent mana sources, but I'm not willing to dismiss them completely. 4 seems like a lot though.

I think treasure cruise might actually have a place in lieu of some protection. I think drawing into three cards to fight attrition might be another viable tactic relative to just protecting the original spells. I'm not completely sure. It's hard because it definitely slows you down any way you slice it.

@apple

I really liked your post, thank you. This is exactly how I approach deck building by asking what my deck needs and what I might be abe to play to fill in those slots. I think what would be useful is to identify the pieces that we really want or need, and see the room to build from there. I would do it now, but I have some work I need to get done before I can really sit down and tinker with this deck anymore. Sideboarding feels particularly difficult to me as well since everything does so many similar things.

SB is the last thing you worry about since its almost 100% meta dependent.

Life // Death should be a main deck card because it essentially means you have no more mana issues and always multiple win cons. Instant speed board wipes rant common... don't get terminused. Its also worth mentioning that lands can't be abrupt decayed.

Lotus petals improve speed but thats not what this deck needs. with something like Life // Death there are no more mana issues.

I still think that you need mana dorks for acceleration.

You also need something to protect Jeskai. Relying on abeyance or even silence, means 1silence+3jeskai+1cantrip = 5 mana just to get chaining, which i guess isn't bad thats just t3 but that requires mana dorks.

[rufus]

Taking a step back and looking through gatherer...

Possible 'free cantrip' cards - these are cards that can net cost 0 mana, and can net 0 cards in hand. The assumption is that value can be realized using ascendancy or Brainstorm


Gitaxian Probe
Manamorphose
Summoner's Pact
Land Grant
Tidal Bore

Tidal Bore definitely looks like a potential 4 of to me.

Daze could go on this list too, but it costs while going off.

1 CC cards with potential CA

Obsessive Search
Tithe
Visions of Beyond
Treasure Cruise

I still think Tithe can be really good, especially when combined with Tidal Bore.

2 CC cards with potential CA

Accumulated Knowledge
Gift of Estates
Ideas Unbound
Dig Through Time


Ways to get hasty mana creatures:

Crimson Wisps
Chaos Charm
Postmortem Lunge
Fatestitcher
Life // Death
Anger
Twinflame
Splinter Twin


Ways to find Ascendancy

Enlightened Tutor
Demand
Glittering Wish
Zur the Enchanter
Academy Rector


Ways to go infinite

Sensei's Divining Top
Regrowth
Reborn Hope
...

[DireLemming]

Land Grant seems sick here. It increases your non-creature spell density (first as being a spell over a land and when cast by thinning lands from your deck) and with discard from Ascendency, multiples are not dead.

EDIT:

4 land grant
4 bs
4 gitaxian probe
4 manamorphose
4 ponder
4 wish
4 gsz
3 ascendancy
4 force
4 sdt
2 tc

4 caryatid
1 birds
1 swarm
1 dryad arbor

12 lands

goldfishing this for a bit. Reminds me of Spanish Inquisition when it didn't brick, except this never bricks. The number of TC is probably wrong and I could totally see Gaddock main.

[Darkenslight]

Land Grant seems sick here. It increases your non-creature spell density (first as being a spell over a land and when cast by thinning lands from your deck) and with discard from Ascendency, multiples are not dead.

EDIT:

4 land grant
4 bs
4 gitaxian probe
4 manamorphose
4 ponder
4 wish
4 gsz
3 ascendancy
4 force
4 sdt
2 tc

4 caryatid
1 birds
1 swarm
1 dryad arbor

12 lands

goldfishing this for a bit. Reminds me of Spanish Inquisition when it didn't brick, except this never bricks. The number of TC is probably wrong and I could totally see Gaddock main.

I don't think 12 lands is enough - I could seriously see things like Bloom Tender and [card]Chrome Mox[/cards] being in the deck, given that one produces all the required colors of mana and the other is a free spell. I'd also consider [card]Dig Through Time[/cards] over the pure card advantage of TC. Land Grant is definitely something to consider, though, as you can fetch for all of your colors though duals (Savannah, Taiga, Trop).

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Glittering Wish is just not good imo.

1. It costs 1 more than Enlightened Tutor
2. It reduces your maindeck ascensions to 3 so you have a considerably lesser chance to start with it in hand and cast it on turn 2. It is better to have 4 in the main with all the dig spells that legacy has.
3. If you want to wish for win conditions than Burning Wish can get Grapeshot, Tendris, Flesh/Blood or your choice of kill spell or Cunning Wish for Brain Freeze.

If you have to rely on glittering wish to get Ascendancy I would like to think that your chance to win the game is slow. At that point you would need your dork to survive to turn 3 and deploy Ascendancy on turn 3.

I don't see why anyone would want to play 4 Caryatid but just 1 Bird.

Caryatid is only good against removal but if not that it is just bad, it can't even attack.

Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch are nobrainers, they also enable Ascendancy on turn 2. Arbor Elf is decent too.

Something like this is what I would test but I don't think it is good enough for legacy. Seems like a weaker version of Glimpse-Elves.
//Lands
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Burning Wish
2 Brain freeze
4 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top

//Creatures
1 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Bloom Tender
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Caryatid

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Treasure Cruise
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony

It still folds to Abrupt Decay and does not consistently win on turn 2 since that requires turn 1 manadork, turn 2 ascendancy and gitaxian probe to start going off, then finding another Gitaxian Probe to generate a 2nd mana and then either win through combat or storming to ~17 with brain freeze.
So several conditions need to be met to win on turn 2 compared to Oops all Spells that has a 50%+ chance to win on turn 1.

This is much slower than Oops, folds to removal instead of graveyard hate and it does not interact with your opponent like regular Storm deck with discard.

It seems that this deck is about as fast as combo Elves but Elves have more alterantive ways to win a game.

[apple713]

Bloom tender is Only good once you have jeskai out since it doesnt actually produce any of jeskai's colors....kinda a waste imo.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Bloom tender is Only good once you have jeskai out since it doesnt actually produce any of jeskai's colors....kinda a waste imo.

Well you have to have Jeskai Ascendancy in play to win, at that point Bloom Tender is the easiest to go off with since he makes 4 mana per tap you get +3 mana of each ponder/brainstorm/preordain etc and can more easily cast Cunning Wish or Burning Wish into Grapeshot/Brain Freeze or just plain Banefire.

Also I think it might be that Chromatic Sphere and Chromatic Star are likely much better than Manamophose.

They can be cast off of 1 mana to untap your manadork, they can be sacced to make any mana and cantrip off of your untapped manadork to continue with any spell.

It depends on how tight mana is. Manamorphose has the advantage of being free, thus creating 1 mana net which is relevant when you have just 1 mana available but need 2 to cast Brain Freeze or a Burning/Cunning Wish. So you need to hit at least 1 Probe during your combo to generate 1 mana.
At that point Manamorphose or Lotus Petal might be needed unless you have 2 active mana dorks/dryad arbors.

[rufus]

I don't think 12 lands is enough - I could seriously see things like Bloom Tender and [card]Chrome Mox[/cards] being in the deck, given that one produces all the required colors of mana and the other is a free spell. I'd also consider [card]Dig Through Time[/cards] over the pure card advantage of TC. Land Grant is definitely something to consider, though, as you can fetch for all of your colors though duals (Savannah, Taiga, Trop).

He's running Land Grants as proxy lands, so the effective count is closer to 16.

It still folds to Abrupt Decay and does not consistently win on turn 2 since that requires turn 1 manadork, turn 2 ascendancy and gitaxian probe to start going off, then finding another Gitaxian Probe to generate a 2nd mana and then either win through combat or storming to ~17 with brain freeze.
So several conditions need to be met to win on turn 2 compared to Oops all Spells that has a 50%+ chance to win on turn 1.

It also has issues with cards like Lightning Bolt.

Summoner's Pact,Land Grant and Tidal Bore could work in place of Gitaxian Probe to start going off from 0 mana without any net loss of cards, and Lotus Petal has potential too. I'm not sure whether summoner's pact would be any good, but a deck could plausibly run 4 probe, 4 land grant, and 4 tidal bore. As far as I can tell, you have to hit a mana dork on turn 1 and draw into ascendancy to go off on turn 2, though I'm not sure it's all that likely to happen.