Losing 2 probes main vs 2 problematic archetypes (grixis delver, pile) gonna make us relevant again.
I ran 2 flusters main, and since Deathrite's gone... Spell pierce is relevant again, I might go back to 2 pierce main (vs pwalkers, chalice.decs.)
2 Become Immense/2 crop rots configs are more explosive. Gives us faster time vs faster decks.
Since RUGDelver's gonna enter the show once again (this is my other deck), expect more removals... thus adding in more mini pumps (Bdefense) will be key... Miracles or Jeskai builds will rely still on STP or paths... BDefense covers all non damage removals and all -/- effects.
The Strain is very very excited today!
OT: My 3 noble built, top 8'ed again... I was seeded 1st with 4Wins and 2 draws vs jeskai/czech pile... was just way too unlucky in the quarters, im drawing no landers and all landers both games haha.. here's the list... Ti's gonna change very soon : )
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=27866&iddeck=225219
Poxy14 ALTERED CARDS:
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Commission Status: FULL!!! Commission Line to open: 2019
I was on 2 probe, I cut my 1 main deck flusterstorm (moved to board) and added 1 Ponder to go to 2 main, and added Library to main, and Baby Jace to start.
My post-ban change was simple: -2 Probe, +2 Ponder
#FreeNedLeeds
Professional Pain-in-Lincoln's-Ass, Team Topdecked
Decks:
Modern: Affinity
Legacy: Steel Stompy/"Dos Equis", SnS, Mono-R Sneak, Dragon Stompy, Infect, Eldrazi Aggro
Vintage: Shops, JacoDrazi
93/94: mono-b, BRUD
I was still on 3 probe. Tons of options, but blue count is important, so probably the 4th daze will go back in, maybe blossoming defense for the 2/2/2 split of BD, vines and BI. Ive considered 3 berserk with maze of ith as a crop rotation target: you can berserk an opponent's creature, then untap it to avoid taking damage before it dies EOT. Also, if you splash white, dueling grounds is a sweet combo with maze.
Cutting wasteland, I only ran 18 lands, so I might add wasteland back, or add another fetch, or maindeck a savannah (keeping 4 trop). Probe is a card i commonly cut after sideboarding anyway. I think 4 daze, 4 force might be a good plan now with combo returning to the metagame. MD fluster is an option but i love the versatility of pierce game 1. Happy brewing yall
I'll probably test a 4th Daze as well. Probably going back to a split of Fluster/Piece main as well. I might actually test a Piracy Charm main again like back in the day.
Very excited about the changes. I don't know if I agree with the bans but I'm excited to play Infect. My changes will be back up to 4 Hierarch, 3 Ponder, 2 Become Immense, trying white splash again for 3 Plow in the board.
I agree with this.Originally Posted by out51d3r
Probe was devastating against Infect, and the deck might be better positioned now.
Ladies and Gentleman, long time no see!
I will admit I have been neglecting our Phyrexian overlords for a while because I had little interest in playing against the Grixis Delver menace or decks with 4 maindeck Baleful Strix. I've mostly just been playing Death and Taxes, and will still continue to do at least some of the time because it is still good and I love it. It will take some time before the meta is actually settled, but I do feel that it may be safe to break out the Invigorates again. I will have to borrow my Hierarchs back from Modern Humans, but I didn't but Beta Berserks to not try to murder people with them.
I have some random thoughts and observations. Some of them are responses to things I have seen here, and some are just from me. I will not claim to have all the answers or to have a perfect list, but there is a lot to chew on so we better get started.
Overall Prospects: I think this is clear to basically everyone, but these bans are almost certainly a net positive, at least in the short term. There may be an avalanche of hateful things coming 3 months from now, but in the immediate short term Grixis Delver disappears or weakens considerable, and 4C dissapears. We are clearly happy about this. As with any new format, people will not be sure exactly what works and doesn't work. This is also a boon for Infect, as being fast and proactive is excellent when people are playing sub-optimal or untested decks.
The idea that loss of Probe is a net positive for Infect: Hard disagree. Probe was an incredible card in Infect, and losing it hurts. I certainly understand the argument, and admit that it isn't all bad. I don't want people to know my hand, and representing a wide variety of possible hands is a strength of Infect. That being said, Probe was a very powerful tool. If literally every single one of our opponents was playing Probe-Therapy, then yes, I want it gone, but that wasn't the case. Infect uses information better than almost everyone. Add to this churning through the deck, maintaining blue count, and fueling Become Immense, this card was undeniably a net positive.
New Miracles: Old countertop Miracles was a good matchup for Infect. I think this is likely still true for current UW, but from my point of view it is a harder matchup than before. The current builds of Miracles is undeniably a worse deck overall, but I think it is better against us. New Miracles is often a 4 Plow, 4 Snapcaster deck. We don't like this. There are more blockers and effectively more cheap removal. Without Top there will be a distinct drop (but not quite zero) in instant speed Terminus, which is good news for out Nexuses. The old builds were decidedly more durdly in the first few turns. Top is mana hungry, Counterbalance doesn't lock us as much as other blue decks. If they wanted to get these on the board early, they had to put their shields down, and if they wait it ends up being a tempo win. New builds have no interest in playing permanents on turns 1~3, and in all likelihood will never take down Plow mana for the entire game.
As I said, I think this is still a fine matchup but you cannot use the exact same play patterns. (With the exception of "resolve Sylvan Library, pay 16 life". That one is still good.)
Daze: Generally better, particularly in fair matchups. DRS went a long way in invalidating soft counters, or at least making them harder to use. One caveat I will add, however, is that after losing DRS a lot of decks will likely cut down a lot on 3-drops and things like Snapcaster. It may be easier to hit the really juicy targets like Kolaghan's Command and Jace, but there may be less of them and many more 1s and 2s running around.
Become Immense: Slightly worse, but almost certainly still sustainable. The Probes will likely be replaced by other cheap spells, and we have always played 8 fetchlands. My instincts say that one is still very managable, but will be slightly less explosive than before.
Force of Will: Hard to say exactly what people will be playing, which leads me to think that the panic button of playing 4 Forces makes sense. With Grixis and Pile falling off, this also leads me to believe there will be fewer fair decks than before, which again makes these good. Death and Taxes also plays a lot few Caverns than before, which makes it more likely that Force will have good targets, but if Miracles is the premier control deck and Delver's Wastelands are less of a concern then Caverns start looking better and could make a comeback. Conclusion? I am wildly speculating and could go in circles forever.
Crop Rotation: I was pretty down on this card for a while with all the countermagic around, but could see it being better. This has always been amazing Become Immense fuel, which is something we lose a little bit with Probe. If Reanimator slows down a bit and shifts blue again, the extra turn of leeway also makes the Bojuka Bog and Karakas plan more effective.
Ponder: We almost certainly want a few copies. We need cantrips and blue cards. Ponder has always been playable in Infect, and with our other secondary cantrip after Brainstorm getting the hammer it makes it an easy choice. Don't sleep on Preordain, but we have enough shuffles that Ponder likely gets the nod.
Blossoming Defense: I think this card was very underplayed previously, and deserves a hard look now. After the 4 Invigorates, it is really hard to hammer out what the exact numbers of pump spells should be. Which brings me to...
!Spice Corner!
Might of Old Krosa: Wanna murder people? Can't run more than 4 Invigorates? This is your best option. With less pesky 1/2s clogging up the ground, and presumably with a bit more combo than before, don't sleep on the power of a no-nonsense one mana +4/+4. You probably will never want more than one or two, but it should be in the maybe pile.
Standstill: This is another fun one if you want to mess with Snapcaster/Predict Miracles. It has some fairly useless matchups, and so it should basically always be paired with 4 maindeck Force of Will to ditch them when not needed. It's cute, but it can bury the right matchups.
Pardon the random thought vomit, but those are my gut, level zero impressions. I am very interested in other people's thoughts, and in particular would love feedback from people who take their trusty shiny elves out into the new environment and get some real game experience.
Go forth, comrades, and reintroduce people to the glory of Phyrexian perfection.
Hey everyone just an update from FMN last night, went 3-1 with no white splash. Here is the list: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/30-1...?cb=1530977473
U/B Reanimator 1-2 (won G2, spell pierce was amazing)
Burn 2-0
Steel Stompy 2-0
Aluren 2-0
Any questions on the list please ask, trying some new numbers of things out. KEEP ON POISONING!!!
I played this list in two 3-rounders over the last two days, going a total of 5-1.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-0...?cb=1530980936
I managed to lose to Death and Taxes, but beat Bant Stoneblade, UR Delver, ANT, UB Delver, and 5C Humans.
I still have looooots of testing and tweaking to do, but I do think the deck is in a pretty good spot. The Standstills in the sideboard are the wildest choice, but they are great against fair decks. Could see playing with the pump/counterspell suites, and putting in a proper Crop Rotation package in the side. Might of Old Krosa has been impressive. Zenith was clunky, it is one of the cards on the chopping block especially if Sylvan Safekeeper isn't needed. Could see another Flusterstorm somewhere but there are enough planeswalkers and artifacts that Spell Pierce has some nice upside. The Naturalize could be a Druid's Deliverance if I keep seeing few enchantments, or another Nature's Claim if people aren't playing Chalice.
I missed playing this deck, I am having a blast. It is never easy to play optimally, but with a solid build and tight play it is powerful and tons of fun.
I actually have tried 3 standstill in the board as well, played against miracles and it was amazing. Not exactly our game plan but it helps refill out hand if we run into a lot of counters and removal. Hope it worked well for you. I'm not playing any right now but that's just because of the store I go to. Defiantly a consideration depending on where the format goes from here.
I went 3-1 last night with a stock-ish list, replacing 2 g probe with 1 ponder 1 mutagenic growth. No white splash. Sideboard had a basic island, 3 TNN and a Jitte.
Lost to Miracles, beat goblins, manaless dredge and an as foretold brew with blood moon and chalice. Tapped three lands and invigorated a TNN three turns in a row vs. gobbos chalice and moon.
I think the TNN plan could be good vs removal decks but it didn’t come together vs miracles.
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I've been playing exclusively online and have been running into a lot of Miracles and RUG Delver. Our Miracles matchup is still pretty good, but I seem to be struggling with the RUG Delver matchup. How are you guys approaching it? I've been respecting and playing around Stifle when I can, and the same with Daze, but maybe I'm giving them too much respect? Any thoughts how to board and play the matchup? Additionally, is Shapers' Sanctuary something we want?
Decklist for reference:
8 Green Fetches
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Pendelhaven
1 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
3 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
2 Berserk
2 Blossoming Defense
1 Crop Rotation
2 Vines of Vastwood
4 Daze
4 Invigorate
3 Force of Will
1 Become Immense
1 Sylvan Library
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Blighted Agent
Sideboard:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Crop Rotation
1 Nature's Claim
1 Shapers' Sanctuary
1 Dissenter's Deliverance
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
That's exactly the idea. Our game plan is generally to win as soon as possible while avoiding blowouts, but there are matchups where we will run into a lot of resistance and just jamming Invigorates at them is suicide. The tricky part is that you want to play it from a position of strength, but want it against decks full of removal. The easiest way to do this is Inkmoth Nexus, and its great against everything but Wasteland. It is trickier with other creatures, but certainly possible.
Yesterday against UR Delver with no Wastelands, I maneuvered into a spot where our creatures and removal all traded, and I played Standstill on an empty board with an Nexus out. He had to just bite the bullet and break Standstill right away, but I drew a million cards and he couldn't possibly keep up.
There are a lot of cards fighting for these slots. Sylvan Library is great, but I already have one and don't like multiples. I love me a Jace Vryn's Prodigy, but hes also weak to all the same things your creatures are (this can be a plus though, as you can protect him with Vines, etc.). I do think there is also a lot of merit to the plan of not trying to go toe-to-toe with these decks on raw cards, and just use extra Vines, Flusterstorms, Blue Blasts, etc. to stick to your guns and maintain a fast, efficient kill. Flusterstorm especially is appealing here, as it is also good against plenty of unfair decks.
Is there an infect discord?
I like the Standstill idea a lot, but I feel like in the MUs where you want it you can get behind and a TNN can swing that kind of game because the card is so dumb. I’m interested in testing both plans though.
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I 4-0'ed a mini last Saturday. My only adjustment main was 2 ponders for the lost probes.
I did stick to 2 flusters main coz I saw ANT/miracles and RUGDelver
matchups are (mud/miracles/ant/depths)
I might go to 3 surgicals... and if RUG shows up alot... REST IN PEACE should be an auto include in our SB (wrecks all their green crits... mongoose/goyfs/mandrils).
I pilot RUGDelver too, usually they carry 6 removals max (mine's 7) and all our protection's live vs all of their removals, coz these are either damages or -/- (dismembers)
2 crop rotations main are nice here too... so as 2 become immense.
If you need to fetch, do it on their upkeeps : )
Poxy14 ALTERED CARDS:
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Commission Status: FULL!!! Commission Line to open: 2019
Good points. Couple questions here - why Green Sun w/ no Dryad Arbor? Isn't that a crucial way to get around Diabolic Edict? I'm actually not seeing Arbor in a lot of recent builds and am wondering why it isn't in every infect deck, even without GSZ.
Also, why are people running 2 Pierce and no Flusterstorms main? What cards do they think Pierce is a better tool for?
There aren't a lot of edict effects in the meta, as Black as a whole has been on the downswing outside of Reanimator. Consequently, Dryad Arbor isn't really worth the slot atm.
GSZ is a fine card to run if you're playing Safekeeper and/or Corrupter. I'd personally move one of the two into the maindeck to make the Zenith better preboard, but that's a minor criticism and more of a personal preference than a hard and fast rule.
Notably, Pierce is better against non-creature permanent based hate. I'm personally on the 1/1 split with Flusterstorm, but stuff like Chalice, Trinisphere, Blood Moon, and Counterbalance can all show up with regularity so I don't really fault anyone for running the 2x Pierce.
I was going to say exactly the same so let get out of my mind :D
Other people covered a lot of it, but I'll add my thoughts.
The biggest strike against Dryad Arbor is when you draw it naturally. If I could always have a Dryad Arbor floating around in my deck with a guarantee to never draw it, I would always play one, but playing it with summoning sickness is soooo bad.
I took the Zenith out when I played today, and put in a flip Jace in the open selection slot. I think you probably want Corrupter maindeck when playing GSZ, as it gives you extra utility even in the main instead of just being overcosted Elves and Hierarchs. This means you need to be in a meta where you don't necessarily always need artifact hate, but there are enough artifacts that it is good. I don't think we are currently in a spot like that. Zenith is also really vulnerable to soft permission.
I think there are few enough edicts being played right now, especially with Pile going away. There will be some, especially if people play Sneak and Show in numbers, but there are less than before. Modern Infect almost always plays an Arbor, but Liliana of the Veil is a staple of the format, while it is relatively uncommon now in Legacy.
Another point about Arbor in GSZ decks is what it is surrounded by. If you look at Maverick, a great bonus of Arbor is that it is a Stoneforge Mystic deck, and being able to turn a Windswept Heath into a creature that can carry a Sword of Fire and Ice. Infect often doesn't really get all that much value out of a random 1/1.
There are a lot of benefits of both Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce. Obviously if you are only worried about instants and Sorceries then Fluster is better, but there are plenty of juicy Pierce targets running around. It also has gotten a little better in fair matchups, as people no longer have mana creatures to pay for it. Major targets for Pierce that Fluster misses: Blood Moon, Chalice, Aether Vial, Counterbalance, Planeswalkers, Sneak Attack, Lotus Petal and LED.
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