Mirror, d&t, lands, elves to name a fewOriginally Posted by rlesko
Honestly there's so much stuff I would want in my SB, I struggle trying to make room for some cards. I can't imagine running a second wasteland over some other cards we can fit in there.
New to Infect, I've played it in 1 weekly so far. I'll be playing today and will report my matches to see where I can improve.
Since I'm still getting used to the deck I'm just running the closest thing to stock as I can. I was just wondering, is there a "sideboard guide" for the deck anywhere? I just want to get a rough idea of what I should be doing games 2 and 3.
Shardless
BUG Delver
This can't be right, lands is the only one on here I'd bring it in against and even that's questionable.
-Mana denial doesn't work well against against hierarchs, and Inkmoths have an easy enough time dodging Wasteland through Crop Rotation, Stifle, and Vines.
-Against D&T you... shoot their ports? You're never going to get an opportunity to shoot a Wasteland, and Cavern is pretty expendable to them, as it can't cast Swords and Aether Vial is already cheating out Uncounterable creatures.
- Nobody plays Cradle on t1. If they figure out what deck you're playing, its just a matter of holding the Cradle in hand until they want a value turn. This is ignoring that they play more Cradles than we do Wastelands and that more recent elves lists have a very strong fair game that relies even less on Cradle to win.
Edit: accidentally a word
Last edited by Jesture; 05-23-2016 at 02:55 PM.
Thank you all for answers, i will definitely continue to play with white splash:)
In delver matchups I always SB swords in, but it is not enought to consistently beat them, matchup is simply in their favour, if they know how to play against us.
In my meta BUG delver lists looks more like this (Jim Davis build):
(It is much harder to beat than traditional slow team america with maindeck hyms and only decays as removal..)
Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
Lands (18)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
1 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Baleful Strix
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
1 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will
Looking forward to hearing about those matches, I love a good tournament report.
As far as sideboarding goes, I point you to The Ultimate Guide to Infect as a starting point:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...To-Infect.html
Welcome to the club, feel free to ask any further questions you might have about sideboarding or Infect in general.
Hey guys, dropping in to relate some of my recent infect experiences. I'm running a fairly standard list, 2 probes 3 vines and flusterstorm and piracy charm in the flex slots. Sylvan came out of the main, I put in a second ponder and have found it to be more immediate in its results and castability, but that slot could also be a 9th fetch or 3rd probe. P charm is nice as an extra boost for berserk, and I like to have main deck removal.
SB:
1 Sylvan
1 teferis response
1 Savannah
2 rip
2 stp
1 surgical
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 spellskite
1 force of will
1 k grip
1 seal of primordium
1 karakas
I've been playing against D&T a lot lately; my bud and I wanted to test the matchup, which I feel is favorable but can lead to long, interactive games.
Sideboard plan:
-3 daze -3 force -1 flusterstorm -1 ponder +Savannah +2 stp +spellskite +pithing needle +null rod + response +karakas
Notes:
karakas is usually just another white source, but in can mess with Thalia in a pinch. Or mangara.
I ignore vial a lot. It can't play out a two drop til turn 3, so save force or daze for the spells they play in the meantime. Memorize the 2 and 3 drops.
Pithing needle should always blindly name wasteland. Infect has to protect its mana base. Teferis response is a beast against rishadan port.
Sometimes you have to let mangara eat a permanent so you can swords in response to karakas.
Berserk will get all of your damage through a blocking thalia that is karakas bounced before damage.
I pointed out to my friend that revoker can shut off hierarch's mana ability, and I wish I had not! It is surprisingly relevant.
If vial is on 2, keep up a spare mana so they can't vial in thalia to counter your spell.
Spellskite can't stop jitte from equipping, but paying 4 life per turn to keep my guys safe from counters works well enough. One game I took four from a jitte'd mirran crusader, paid 8 life (double strike with jitte is insane) and won on the crack back.
If your opponent tries to waste a trop and you have another mana source, you can tap it,cast an instant (p charm, brainstorm) daze your own spell returning trop to hand, then pay for the daze. Congrats, you dazed a wasteland! I would not advise this if you can't pay for daze (I lost that game, lol ).
I'd love to hear some different strategies against d&t. Thoughts?
That's not how Thalia works.
In general, d&t is rather easy matchup. Avoid Jitte and watch them locking themselves out of the game with Thalia.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Are you saying thalia can't be vialed in to tax a spell? Or that thalia can't block a creature and be bounced by karakas to avoid damage being dealt to her?
Edit: you're absolutely right, thalia has to be in play when the spell is cast! Good to know. No one tried that play on me, but I was unnecessarily worried about it.
Ha yeah, my win % against Infect has absolutely improved since I started taking out Thalias. It's counter-intuitive because sometimes Thalia *will* beat Infect, or save DnT from losing to a t2 kill. But Infect is a combo deck that doesn't actually have to play all of its spells at once, generally has extra mana via Noble Hiearch, and the curve is 0-1. DnT needs mana for STP, needs mana to equip Jitte, needs untapped lands to keep Waste/Port open for Inkmoth. All of the things that are good against Infect are mana-intensive and can't just be Vialed in.
I would not blind Needle Wasteland, or anything really unless your soft hand loses to Wasteland. DnT isn't going to beat you without some sort of activated ability on board (Vial or Jitte mostly) and doesn't have the fastest clock, so just save it until you find a relevant target. The card is game winning when it's relevant so it's a bad idea to waste it.
Thanks for the advice!
Just going to throw it out there and say that this seems 100% wrong. Cards that you reference as needing mana are Port, Wasteland, Swords, and Jitte. Out of those 4 listed, Swords is the only one that is taxed by Thalia, maybe Jitte if you don't have SFM to cheat it in.
I'd argue that Thalia does the same thing for your game plan as a Port or Wasteland but better in that it gives your opponent one less mana to work with per non-creature spell (about half of a stock Infect list is non-creature spells). Not to mention that Wasteland and Port can be worked around, Wasteland by Stifling or Crop Rotating or using Vines on an Inkmoth, and Port by just pumping up a creature in response to port activations. Plus the 1/3 cases where your Thalia is left in play to hold back Glistener Elf from getting chip damage in is not inconsequential, as you yourself mentioned the deck often wins by doing poison damage across several turns.
I'm all for counterintuitive board plans that help sneak in win percentage points, but to board out Thalia's entirely just seems wrong (unless your board is 4x Path and you have to find room?) Your point about the absence of things that are good against Infect that can be vialed in is also a head scratcher. Preboard Flickerwisp is an absolute nightmare to deal with, and post board Ethersworn and Spirit can do some serious work if used properly. Hell, even if they're used improperly and vialed in on main phase they can still do some serious work. If you want to get really crafty, you can just wait for your opponent to cast Invigorate and pass priority with one mana open before vialing in Thalia to tax the Berserk he was planning to cast, but is now sadly holding in hand.
In your original post it seemed like you were implying that with a spell on the stack, you could vial in thalia and make the opponent pay 1 more for that spell. At that time costs for that spell have already been paid so she does nothing except tax future spells. If that is not what you meant, just ignore this post...
Unless the Infect player has something like a T2 kill, holding back Elf is generally not a big issue. DnT is a creature-heavy deck, it has countless blockers, and a decent number of flyers + ways to interact with Inkmoth. It's really Blighted Agent that wins games and it does so at a ridiculously high rate.
Thalia herself does nothing vs Blighted Agent, maybe requires Infect to spread its kill over two turns (which Canonist already does, only better.) StP is the single best maindeck card for the DnT player outside of an online Jitte (which is more of a 'achieved win con' than 'good card') since it is the only way to touch Agent. Making your best card worse is just a bad way to win. (And I do board in a Path, and sometimes even play 2, so I have more copies of the-best-card.)
Having to hold up 2 mana at all times is a real issue. You can't play StPs through soft countermagic now and it also makes developing your board while bluffing a StP almost impossible during early turns. Infect can often play with essentially perfect information since DnT's one white doesn't even threaten a StP now, and it's not hard to win with perfect information and 3 mana - even through a Thalia. Invigorate+Berserk. Invigorate+Invigorate. Become Immense + another pump spell.
Flickerwisp is only a nightmare to deal with on...turn 4? Turn 5 if Infect is on the play. And only with an Aether Vial. As a DnT player I am not thrilled to see it in my opening hand except - a. On the play b. With a Vial c. With some other form of strong interaction (StP or Canonist) that ensures I'll live long enough to hold it up. Once it's live, sure it's amazing, but half the time that's not until Infect's T5, and even then only in games with T1 Vial.
Overall:
- DnT's mana denial plan works best against decks that need to resolve expensive spells or have to resolve multiple spells a turn.
- Infect doesn't actually have to do either, plays ramp, and can easily win off a few attacks and a few pump spells split over a few turns.
- DnT goes all in on the mana denial plan, they might buy some time and prevent the fastest kills, but they are also spending their resources not actually building a real offense / finding equipment. Basically 'playing scared'.
- Thalia does nothing that Canonist isn't already doing, except provide a drawback for DnT too.
Last edited by iatee; 05-25-2016 at 03:17 PM.
As iatee particularly said, there are games where Thalia is all you need to win but that's not how it usually goes. Thalia sure looks effective but it really messes up dnt's swords to plowshares. What I have been talking about for quite some time now is that some d&t players actually think of Thalia as a trump card again infect.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
No arguments there. Blighted is great against the non-blue creature based deck.
You've created a scenario that incorporates Blighted Agent, Thalia, and Swords to Plowshares. You're then worried that you won't be able to cast this Swords to Plowshares that you're holding in hand because you don't have enough mana to both cast it and play around soft permission. I don't know exactly what's going on here, but it just doesn't seem right that your opponent has enough mana to cast Vines of Vastwood to protect Blighted and cast soft permission while you're taxing his mana base from all fronts with Wasteland, Thalia and Port.
It's weird, in a way it almost feels like you're both overestimating how strong Infect is and how weak your mana denial plan is. And your logic is a bit strange as well, like do you really believe Thalia is hurting your deck more than its hurting the 29 non-creature spell deck?
I hear vial is good for developing a board and simultaneously using ports/wastelands. And I don't know what this nonsense about perfect information is, that's not what the phrase means. And double check your math, double Invigorate is +8/+8. And seriously, because Infect can win through a Thalia it's suddenly not worth playing? That's insane and makes no sense, I can win through every other card in your deck too so maybe board those out games 2 and 3?
So help me out, is turn 4 or 5 too late now? Because I thought you were saying that Infect is attacking you over multiple turns, so you're generally still alive by turn 4 or 5 if they haven't used pump spells. Also, vial is great for other reasons. You don't have to cheat in creatures that directly impact my game plan, it's great for developing a board and a clock while using ports and- whatever, I feel like I've repeated this point way too many times. Again, it feels like you're really just overestimating Infect's ability to kill through mana denial and underestimating the Death and Taxes mana denial plan.
-Infect is a deck that regularly needs to resolve multiple spells in a turn. Not always 10 points worth of pump, but also cantrips and permission spells to keep creatures alive. We've talked strictly about pump spells and infect creatures, but there hasn't been a single point made about cantrips and counter magic, which Thalia is fantastic against. Also, what deck in legacy is resolving "expensive spells"? Is Thalia not good at hosing, say, RUG Delver?
-Think this should be part of the first bullet based on how you've phrased it, but you are correct in that Infect doesn't HAVE to cast expensive spells or resolve multiple spells in one turn. In fact, this just seems like a general summary of Infect's strengths. Is this an argument?
-I hear vial is great for developing a board while your mana is used to prevent your opponent from playing Magic.
-Again, I'll bring up the cantrips and counter magic. You're repeatedly addressing the 10 pump spells in the deck while completely ignoring that this deck runs 4 brainstorms, 8 permission spells, and 4-6 other cantrips/flex slot one ofs that aren't creatures. Thalia is great against any shell that uses cantrips to smooth out its draws.
I guess my biggest problem with all of this is that you're singling out Thalia as a weak card in this matchup, when in reality the entire deck is full of weak cards. Not to say that this is a weak deck (it most certainly is not), but Death and Taxes is very much a "whole is greater than the sum of its parts" deck. If you're cutting 4 copies of Thalia, you're also making every copy of Wasteland and Rishadan Port weaker which is a huge part of what makes Death and Taxes so strong against the XU brainstorm decks in the format.
You are correct in that Thalia alone is not enough to win. It is strong, but it is not a trump card in this matchup.
So I guess my follow-up question is what would you bring in instead of Thalia? I would side out many other cards before I side out Thalia, so I feel this plan of boarding all four out is... perplexing, to say the least.
DnT sideboards vary a lot but for Mono-W:
- Every copy of Ethersworn Canonist, which should be at least 2, but usually 3. Like I said, does the same thing that Thalia does (limits Infect to one spell a turn) but actually combos w/ StP instead of working against it.
- Any additional removal, even if it's clunky and slow (Ratchet Bomb/Warping Wail/Council's Judgment). Doesn't save you from a t2/3 kill, but it's a way to get an Agent off the table if they kept a hand off Agent alone. Easier to cast without Thalia around too.
- Some people bring in Needle for Inkmoth, though I think 4 Wasteland 4 Port is enough
I honestly have no idea how other people navigate through the matchup. In tournaments I'm x-0 against d&t and most of the time when I win, there is Thalia in play. I get that the matchup can go many ways but I'd much rather play against Thalia than Canonist or Jitte. Bottom Line: Thalia is not the worst against infect but resolving her absolutely doesn't win the game and makes StP look very silly.
In general I'd rather examine closer the fifty-fifty matchups than the eighty-twenty ones. Like how are you people approaching eldrazis? Everyone attending the gp's in two weeks should have a solid understanding of this particular matchup, I think.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Needle is stronger than wasteland, don't forget infect has vines, and often only needs one turn the corner. Over all I don't feel like this is that bad of a matchup. It can be grueling but only if they have early STP. most of the people I've played against board out vials which makes me want to bring in karakas. End of turn crop rotating in karakas to bounce thalia and swing for the win is a real option against D&T.
As for the earlier conversation about wasteland, I would bring it in against punishing jund, rug, lands, UR delver, mud, eldrazi, tin fins, and any other deck with a super greedy mana base. Generally I'm trying to keep these off of one color and can use wasteland to do so. Wasteland surgical against rug might be the best thing ever but even just wastelanding a red source allowing you to push an infector through can be critical to winning the game.
Does the white splash run the second waste? I think I'm back on the white splash is the way to go train for GP Columbus.
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