[Deck] U/G Infect

[Jesture]

DnT sideboards vary a lot but for Mono-W:
- Every copy of Ethersworn Canonist, which should be at least 2, but usually 3. Like I said, does the same thing that Thalia does (limits Infect to one spell a turn) but actually combos w/ StP instead of working against it.
- Any additional removal, even if it's clunky and slow (Ratchet Bomb/Warping Wail/Council's Judgment). Doesn't save you from a t2/3 kill, but it's a way to get an Agent off the table if they kept a hand off Agent alone. Easier to cast without Thalia around too.
- Some people bring in Needle for Inkmoth, though I think 4 Wasteland 4 Port is enough

My fault, I phrased that question poorly. I was asking what you board out, not in.

[iatee]

I board out Thalia and some moms usually.

Needle is stronger than wasteland, don't forget infect has vines, and often only needs one turn the corner. Over all I don't feel like this is that bad of a matchup. It can be grueling but only if they have early STP. most of the people I've played against board out vials which makes me want to bring in karakas. End of turn crop rotating in karakas to bounce thalia and swing for the win is a real option against D&T.

As for the earlier conversation about wasteland, I would bring it in against punishing jund, rug, lands, UR delver, mud, eldrazi, tin fins, and any other deck with a super greedy mana base. Generally I'm trying to keep these off of one color and can use wasteland to do so. Wasteland surgical against rug might be the best thing ever but even just wastelanding a red source allowing you to push an infector through can be critical to winning the game.

Does the white splash run the second waste? I think I'm back on the white splash is the way to go train for GP Columbus.

Needle is better than Wasteland/Port but it's still only good against exactly one card that you already have answers for, plus lots of Flyers to block Inkmoth anyway. It just doesn't feel worth a card here. You might lose to Inkmoth+Vines once in a while, but you also lose to only drawing cards that don't do anything relevant.

Anyone who boards out Vial against Infect is absolutely insane and I don't think you should expect that. DnT generally loses the matchup because it's not fast enough and Vial is the only way to play faster. Playing a Karakas to beat their card that isn't reliably good (Thalia) seems like a bad plan, but it might be better if you saw extra targets in Mangara/Brimaz.

[Jesture]

I honestly have no idea how other people navigate through the matchup. In tournaments I'm x-0 against d&t and most of the time when I win, there is Thalia in play. I get that the matchup can go many ways but I'd much rather play against Thalia than Canonist or Jitte. Bottom Line: Thalia is not the worst against infect but resolving her absolutely doesn't win the game and makes StP look very silly.

In general I'd rather examine closer the fifty-fifty matchups than the eighty-twenty ones. Like how are you people approaching eldrazis? Everyone attending the gp's in two weeks should have a solid understanding of this particular matchup, I think.

Here's the thing, I know we're very favored against D&T (Tom Ross called it his easiest matchup in the Legacy's Allure podcast (shoutout to Zachary Koch)). Our meta is something crazy like ~25% D&T, and I've never felt unfavored in all of the times I've played against it.

All of that said, Death and Taxes is a synergy deck from a theoretical perspective. Individually, the cards just aren't that strong, it's very much the combination of cards that's doing something legacy worthy. So I guess I'm in agreement that Thalia isn't all that strong, but my big concern is that I feel there are plenty of other cards that you would side out before Thalia in this matchup. For a few, Batterskull, Crusader, Brimaz, Serra Avengers, and Mangara (if you play it) are all worse than Thalia here.

[iatee]

Mangara is quite good actually, it's an answer to Agent and Mangara-lock is almost as good as an online Jitte.

Brimaz/Batterskull/Crusader are all better clocks than Thalia, especially Crusader, which can't be chumped. Avenger is a flyer, good clock and blocks Inkmoth.

Big picture - although those cards can all be slow, they don't have the risk of costing you the game that Thalia does. If you have a hand full of slow cards you mull, but it's not terrible to have some in the deck as finishers.

FWIW I am in the minority of DnT players here and you should expect most people to keep Thalias. But I've won the last 4 or so competitive REL matches I've played against Infect and I think the matchup can be turned into something like 40-60 for DnT and not 25-75.

[Svyelunite]

Here's the thing, I know we're very favored against D&T (Tom Ross called it his easiest matchup in the Legacy's Allure podcast (shoutout to Zachary Koch)). Our meta is something crazy like ~25% D&T, and I've never felt unfavored in all of the times I've played against it.

All of that said, Death and Taxes is a synergy deck from a theoretical perspective. Individually, the cards just aren't that strong, it's very much the combination of cards that's doing something legacy worthy. So I guess I'm in agreement that Thalia isn't all that strong, but my big concern is that I feel there are plenty of other cards that you would side out before Thalia in this matchup. For a few, Batterskull, Crusader, Brimaz, Serra Avengers, and Mangara (if you play it) are all worse than Thalia here.

Thanks for the shout out

I agree with some of the statements people have made about Thalia being individually weak, but she is still solid with Wasteland and port. Serra avenger is def good enough to keep in. Blocking inkmoth is important enough. All of that said, I think the single best creature against us is ethersworn canonist. It limits the deck like nothing else can.

[Hopo]

Has anyone been playing longer with maindeck Savannah? I'd love to hear some solid experiences. Mainly, whether it will screw you over in the opening hand too often or not. Switching a Tropical island for a Savannah would be very good for my SB but it's a change I don't want to make without testing a lot and I might just run out of time to do that since the GP is only two weeks away.

That said, I have to also say that having an extra land to bring in against Wastelands has been quite solid as well. Maindecking Savannah would give another SB slot but maybe make the tempo matchups slightly more difficult.

[Jesture]

Has anyone been playing longer with maindeck Savannah? I'd love to hear some solid experiences. Mainly, whether it will screw you over in the opening hand too often or not. Switching a Tropical island for a Savannah would be very good for my SB but it's a change I don't want to make without testing a lot and I might just run out of time to do that since the GP is only two weeks away.

That said, I have to also say that having an extra land to bring in against Wastelands has been quite solid as well. Maindecking Savannah would give another SB slot but maybe make the tempo matchups slightly more difficult.

I run maindeck Savannah on and off and my current configuration (last month or so) uses it along with a maindeck Swords. The only times it's given me mana troubles are when I used to play 4x Daze and when I played maindeck Dryad Arbor. Since then it's been fine (I play 3 daze and no longer run Arbor), occasionally giving away my white splash in game 1 but overall just hiding out most of the time or once in a while coming out to cast Swords g1.

As far as siding in extra lands against tempo, I know Tom Ross recommends it against most 4x Wasteland decks, but I have no experience with this strategy myself.

[qomori]

I run maindeck Savannah on and off and my current configuration (last month or so) uses it along with a maindeck Swords. The only times it's given me mana troubles are when I used to play 4x Daze and when I played maindeck Dryad Arbor. Since then it's been fine (I play 3 daze and no longer run Arbor), occasionally giving away my white splash in game 1 but overall just hiding out most of the time or once in a while coming out to cast Swords g1.

As far as siding in extra lands against tempo, I know Tom Ross recommends it against most 4x Wasteland decks, but I have no experience with this strategy myself.

I've been maindecking Savannah since the Dig ban and haven't had any issues other than revealing the white splash game 1 sometimes, like you mentioned. I think I've had to mull a hand with just Savannah maybe twice in what's got be at least 3-dozen matches.

[shocked439]

Alright fine folks of the source. I'm focusing hard on GP Columbus. I'm thinking about returning to the white splash and want some feedback on which way to go.

Currently this is where I'm at:

4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Blighted Agent
1 Viridian Corrupter

1 Become Immense
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
1 Spell Pierce
3 Vines of Vastwood

1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven

2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Ponder

Side Board
1 Spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Submerge
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas


Cards I'm considering finding slots for:
Teferi's Response
Piracy Charm
Sylvan Library
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Krosan Grip
Absolute Law


Help please!

[Jesture]

Alright fine folks of the source. I'm focusing hard on GP Columbus. I'm thinking about returning to the white splash and want some feedback on which way to go.

Currently this is where I'm at:

4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Blighted Agent
1 Viridian Corrupter

1 Become Immense
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
1 Spell Pierce
3 Vines of Vastwood

1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven

2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Ponder

Side Board
1 Spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Submerge
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas


Cards I'm considering finding slots for:
Teferi's Response
Piracy Charm
Sylvan Library
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Krosan Grip
Absolute Law


Help please!

-If you can't pick up a fourth trop, I'd recommend cutting Arbor from the list and moving Savannah to main deck. I'll be the first to say I'm not a fan of Arbor, but if you insist on playing the card, ask yourself if it's worth playing in the main deck. What matchups is it good in? Is it worth getting stone rained every time an opponent casts terminus, or giving your opponent the opportunity to use spot removal on a land.

-What's the second wasteland in the board for? We had this talk a few days ago, but I don't think anything came of it.

-3 Swords 2 Submerge is way too many ways to deal with creatures. If you want to keep both, I'd recommend shaving one copy of each.

-Find room for another piece of artifact/enchantment removal in the board, either Claim, Grip, or Naturalize/Seal.

-Find room for Needle. 1 or 2 is your choice, but the card is flexible enough to warrant a spot in any Infect sideboard.

-Of the cards you're considering finding room for, I'd say Sylvan Library is the only one that has to go in.

[Sparkii]

I'd play seal before nature's claim. Chalice at 1 is real.

I'm admittedly a huge fan of piracy charm lately. I've cut the second become immense for a second copy of it.

[Capt4in]

New to the deck, just finished picking up the stuff this weekend. Planning to start with Spicklemire's list from SCG Indy as I've been impressed with the power of maindeck Library in my other deck (Elves).

Are there any good primers/guides to read written more recently than 2014?

[Bosaapje]

Guys, how do you board against Delver decks? I'm doing pretty well lately with Infect (3th on the MKM Series Trial with 130 men, 21st at the main tournament with over 400 man and last week a 5-0 at a GPT) but I still don't know how to board properly against Delver decks. My current list is:

4 Elf
4 Hierarch
4 Agent

1 Crop Rotation
1 Zenith
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

3 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm (used to be Spell Pierce but this was a meta call)

1 Become Immense
4 Invigorate
2 Berserk
3 Vines of Vastwood

3 Tropical Island
9 Fetch
1 Savannah
1 Pendelhaven
4 Nexus
1 Wasteland
1 Forest

Sideboard:
2 Swords to Plowshares (but I'm thinking of cutting them for Dismember and Submerge)
2 Rest in Peace
1 Crop rotation
1 Karakas
1 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Spellskite
2 Krosan Grip
1 Viridian Corrupter



I'm happy with this list although the white splash is primarily for RiP and not Plow. There was a lot of AggroLoam and Lands in my meta so I wanted to play white for RiP. Swords also came in but isn't that good against Eldrazi which is why I'm thinking of playing Dismember again (because of the Chalice). I still need to test the matchup a bit more with Swords in the board. Anyway, how do we board against Delver? Do we keep the Dazes in on the draw, Forces in or out? Spell Pierces in? I've got no idea and I feel like the Delver decks are the worst matchup right now in this meta and they're pretty prevalent.

[shocked439]

-If you can't pick up a fourth trop, I'd recommend cutting Arbor from the list and moving Savannah to main deck. I'll be the first to say I'm not a fan of Arbor, but if you insist on playing the card, ask yourself if it's worth playing in the main deck. What matchups is it good in? Is it worth getting stone rained every time an opponent casts terminus, or giving your opponent the opportunity to use spot removal on a land.

-What's the second wasteland in the board for? We had this talk a few days ago, but I don't think anything came of it.

-3 Swords 2 Submerge is way too many ways to deal with creatures. If you want to keep both, I'd recommend shaving one copy of each.

-Find room for another piece of artifact/enchantment removal in the board, either Claim, Grip, or Naturalize/Seal.

-Find room for Needle. 1 or 2 is your choice, but the card is flexible enough to warrant a spot in any Infect sideboard.

-Of the cards you're considering finding room for, I'd say Sylvan Library is the only one that has to go in.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[Svyelunite]

Guys, how do you board against Delver decks? I'm doing pretty well lately with Infect (3th on the MKM Series Trial with 130 men, 21st at the main tournament with over 400 man and last week a 5-0 at a GPT) but I still don't know how to board properly against Delver decks. My current list is:

4 Elf
4 Hierarch
4 Agent

1 Crop Rotation
1 Zenith
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

3 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm (used to be Spell Pierce but this was a meta call)

1 Become Immense
4 Invigorate
2 Berserk
3 Vines of Vastwood

3 Tropical Island
9 Fetch
1 Savannah
1 Pendelhaven
4 Nexus
1 Wasteland
1 Forest

Sideboard:
2 Swords to Plowshares (but I'm thinking of cutting them for Dismember and Submerge)
2 Rest in Peace
1 Crop rotation
1 Karakas
1 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Spellskite
2 Krosan Grip
1 Viridian Corrupter



I'm happy with this list although the white splash is primarily for RiP and not Plow. There was a lot of AggroLoam and Lands in my meta so I wanted to play white for RiP. Swords also came in but isn't that good against Eldrazi which is why I'm thinking of playing Dismember again (because of the Chalice). I still need to test the matchup a bit more with Swords in the board. Anyway, how do we board against Delver? Do we keep the Dazes in on the draw, Forces in or out? Spell Pierces in? I've got no idea and I feel like the Delver decks are the worst matchup right now in this meta and they're pretty prevalent.

I think you forgot Gitaxian Probes in your list because its only like 57 cards. But ignoring that, Delver is a tough matchup. They have more powerful threats and get to hold their disruption for our pump spells pretty easily. I usually board out some of the counters (Dazes on draw, Forces on Play), and Git Probes, and bring in STP, Sylvan Safekeeper, and Teferi's Response. You basically want to have cards that counter their removal and fight creatures, and win a grindy game. It's tough because they still get more card selection than you, but nothing fixes that besides some major SB overhaul and that isn't worth it.

[Bosaapje]

I think you forgot Gitaxian Probes in your list because its only like 57 cards. But ignoring that, Delver is a tough matchup. They have more powerful threats and get to hold their disruption for our pump spells pretty easily. I usually board out some of the counters (Dazes on draw, Forces on Play), and Git Probes, and bring in STP, Sylvan Safekeeper, and Teferi's Response. You basically want to have cards that counter their removal and fight creatures, and win a grindy game. It's tough because they still get more card selection than you, but nothing fixes that besides some major SB overhaul and that isn't worth it.

Yeah I forgot the Probes but besides that I've never played with Safekeeper and I'm gonna try them. You run just a one off and do you also play Zenith then? I'm gonna test a lot with friends soon for GP Prague so I'll test more against Delver decks with Teferi's Response and Safekeeper sideboard.



Did you guys see the MTGO Legacy Gauntlet decks? http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...let-2016-06-01. This is the Infect list:

4 Blighted Agent
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Berserk
3 Become Immense
4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
4 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
2 Vines of Vastwood
3 Daze
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Pendelhaven
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Dismember
2 Krosan Grip
1 Maze of Ith
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Flusterstorm

It's a bit of an awkward list with 4 Probes and 3 Become Immense. Also 2 Vines is not optimal. While I would make a totally different list it's not that bad and it could be a lot worse. It could be fun for people to try Infect once without buying all the pieces.

[shocked439]

Yeah I forgot the Probes but besides that I've never played with Safekeeper and I'm gonna try them. You run just a one off and do you also play Zenith then? I'm gonna test a lot with friends soon for GP Prague so I'll test more against Delver decks with Teferi's Response and Safekeeper sideboard.



Did you guys see the MTGO Legacy Gauntlet decks? http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...let-2016-06-01. This is the Infect list:

4 Blighted Agent
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Berserk
3 Become Immense
4 Brainstorm
2 Crop Rotation
4 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
2 Vines of Vastwood
3 Daze
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Pendelhaven
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Dismember
2 Krosan Grip
1 Maze of Ith
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Flusterstorm

It's a bit of an awkward list with 4 Probes and 3 Become Immense. Also 2 Vines is not optimal. While I would make a totally different list it's not that bad and it could be a lot worse. It could be fun for people to try Infect once without buying all the pieces.

A lot of those lists were a bit wonky. The infect list with 3 become immense seems suspect though. It seems like they wanted to highlight the power of newer cards including a thing in the ice grixis list and such. I suppose this is a good entry into infect and should be consistent if not as explosive.

I'm curious about your list a few posts above you were mentioning cutting swords in favor of submerge and dismember. Is the white splash worth it then or could bojuka bog do the work of the rest in peace you have?

[Hopo]

Anyone attending GP Prague? I wouldn't mind discussing tech and strategy for example on Friday between the trials or something. Local meta predictions would also be nice to hear.

[Svyelunite]

Yeah I forgot the Probes but besides that I've never played with Safekeeper and I'm gonna try them. You run just a one off and do you also play Zenith then? I'm gonna test a lot with friends soon for GP Prague so I'll test more against Delver decks with Teferi's Response and Safekeeper sideboard.

I only play one and yes, I play GSZ also. Teferi's is best used when you're on the play so you can hopefully have a mana advantage when using it, but it isn't necessary. Other options to consider using in SB to improve Delver matchups are Blue Blast, a 4th Vines, and Absolute Law.

Safekeeper is really strong and since trying it at GP SeaTac, I haven't taken it out of the deck. Lately I've even been trying it MD in the slot I usually use for Corruptor, but I'm not certain that's correct. I'll try to remember to get y'all some data after the SCG Classic in ATL this weekend. Wish me luck everyone!

[Jesture]

I only play one and yes, I play GSZ also. Teferi's is best used when you're on the play so you can hopefully have a mana advantage when using it, but it isn't necessary. Other options to consider using in SB to improve Delver matchups are Blue Blast, a 4th Vines, and Absolute Law.

Safekeeper is really strong and since trying it at GP SeaTac, I haven't taken it out of the deck. Lately I've even been trying it MD in the slot I usually use for Corruptor, but I'm not certain that's correct. I'll try to remember to get y'all some data after the SCG Classic in ATL this weekend. Wish me luck everyone!

To clarify, that's 1 GSZ, 1 Sylvan Safekeeper, 0 Arbor, and 0 Corrupter main deck? What's in the last flex slot?