I run one (sometimes 2) Surgicals along with the RiP, still keep one Crop Rot (I have one main, none in the board) because the utility with Inkmoth and surprise Pendelhaven are still so good. I main deck Sylvan, but I think it depends on how fast your meta is.Originally Posted by kellysandall
Still having great success vs. Eldrazi, but cannot seem to win the Grixis Delver match up for the life of me. I'm assuming that it's bad for us, but I'm guessing my play style might be making it harder for me than others. Can someone provide feedback on how to make this a closer match up? Has anyone considered Hooting Mandrils? I am going to try 3 in the board this week. It seems great vs Delver and Burn (we have 3-4 delver players and 1 burn player at my shop). We can always BI + Berserk for 20 if we're lucky.
Heyo, congrats on your continued success against Eldrazi. I took a leaf out of your book from a few posts back, and they've been a much more even matchup since.
Grixis Delver is just an incredibly scrappy matchup. There will be times where you get obliterated by the t1 DRS t2 Pyro Probe Therapy Therapy start, and then there are times where you'll feel guilty and blow them out with some combination of threat, counter magic, and Invigorates. But more often than not, your games will come down to very tight play followed by top decks and card advantage. Be mindful of how you use Dazes and Force of Wills, and be wary of all of Delvers usual tricks, plus the extra therapies that Grixis brings to the table. I'd imagine you're more favored against the Stifle version, as the card is somewhat lackluster against us. That said, it does lead to more blowouts so be extra careful if there's a chance of those being played.
Sideboarding
In:
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Hydroblast
+1 Absolute Law
+1 Swords to Plowshares (Currently playing another main deck)
+1 Necropede? I don't play it often, but it would come in here
I tend to leave in 1x Force of Will and most/all of my Dazes on both the draw and play respectively. Even on the draw, our Dazes are the best way to fight over turn 1 mana dorks, and I've felt that games are all but lost if our opponent gets out a turn 1 Deathrite and then deals with our Noble Hierarch. Force of Will is bad card advantage, but I tend to leave one in as there are occasionally cards that I feel must be countered/dealt with in some way (think like Jitte, Lavamancer, Staticaster).
Cards like Hydroblast and Flusterstorm come in as they're clean 1 for 1's that combat a lot of our opponent's removal. Flusterstorm also has a lot of fun tricks, like double countering Stifle + another card by fetching on the stack, or countering two spells in response to one of your pump spells.
Blanking opposing burn spells and pingers with Absolute Law is the closest thing we have to card advantage in this matchup. Additionally, being able to swing Glistener Elf through elemental tokens is also super important, as elf loses a lot of its late game impact if your opponent can repeatedly run tokens out in front of it. I've seldom had opponents let this card resolve, but the game becomes substantially easier if you can get it on to the board.
Swords is 1 for 1 targeted removal. Sure you can have a Deathrite Shaman. You also get 1 life when he's exiled.
Necropede is often a 1 for 1 with the corner cases of being a 2 for 1 or completely useless. I value this over the Elf as Elf can have a lot of trouble against 1/2 blockers or an unyielding stream of 1/1 elementals. In both of these situations, Necropede can at least take out an opposing creature on his way out.
Out:
-2 Force of Will
-1 Stifle
-1 Berserk
-1 Glistener Elf for Necropede if I have it
Force of Wills are card disadvantage. Leave one in just in case your opponent hates you and plays Fire Covenant, or something similarly devastating.
Stifle is weak. We have no targets other than fetches, and hitting a fetchland against the DRS deck doesn't seem like it'll slow them down very much.
Berserk provides no protection and is a liability to combo off with. We have better options for targeted removal post board, and it's very unlikely we'll have the chance to combo kill them.
Curious to hear other people's thoughts on this matchup. Traditionally, it's been the second toughest flavor of Delver for us right behind the now defunct Patriot Delver. I've managed a slightly >50% win rate against it in legacy weeklies, though my intuition tells me that the real number should be closer to 50/50 if not lower than that.
Jesture: I usually don't feel good siding out Berserk against infinite chump blockers. You have 4 creatures that will just stop connecting once Pyromancer gets out. The same with elves and d&t. I tend to cut cantrips and lesser countermagic to fit in max creatures and impactful hate.
I don't side in Rip against grixis but should I? Shaman, therapies, 5/5's and maybe lavamancers would take a hit from it.
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I'm on the white splash as well, so with Absolute Law, I don't mind siding out both Berserks, but I definitely see where you're coming from with trampling over top. Bringing in Swords, Swords, Absolute Law, the extra Vines, RiP, and double Pithing Needle (for Wasteland) doesn't leave a lot of room though (I maindeck one Fluster right now and don't have Hydroblast in the board, unless I'm off the splash). I do like RiP as well, since it turns off a lot of things/makes Angler almost impossible for them to cast. I've also lost a non-insignificant amount of games to burn on my dudes and just Deathrites as a clock.
Talked to a Grixis Delver friend of mine, he says he really doesn't worry about Rest in Peace all that much. Postboard he's cutting all of his Gurmag Anglers, plus the Cabal Therapies are already getting reasonable value by synergizing with Probe and Young Pyromancer. He's also not playing Lavamancer like some people are, so all it's really doing is shutting off Deathrite Shaman. Which is not terrible, but that's boarding in a 2 mana permanent to deal with DRS activations hat also takes away our Become Immenses. So overall not too impressive, though I guess that assessment goes up and down based on how your opponent boards.
My feeling with it, even if someone is boarding out Anglers, is that they've got 4 Deathrites, and I'm happy to spend one card to shut them down, if I draw it. I can see going either way for sure though. Of the cards I bring in, that's the one I'd be quickest to change up.
Thanks for the feedback. I am currently on the UG version, and haven't seen a necessity to move to the white splash (I've also never tried it, which I'll need to do soon I suppose).
Any thoughts on approaching this matchup from the UG side?
Glad my more aggressive tendencies are working for you vs. Eldrazi.
Zachary Koch of Legacy's Allure speaks very highly of Sylvan Safekeeper against any red based Delver deck, though this was a while back and I haven't heard any mention of the card from anyone else recently. If you want to try it out, I'd recommend main decking 1 GSZ and maybe 1 Viridian Corrupter and/or 1 Dryad Arbor, with the singleton Safekeeper in your sideboard.
I've also had some minor success playing an extra Necropede in the U/G sideboard. To borrow from my previous post, the Elf can quickly lose effectiveness against board states with DRS or Young Pyromancer, so I feel pretty comfortable cutting one for a Necropede postboard.
If we're really reaching towards the back of the spice cupboard, Standstill is another option to consider. My testing with the card found it to be just a little too clunky for my liking in open metas, but the card seems to be exactly where we want to be against any grindier matchup. It seems to be incredible against Shardless and good against Miracles, but awful to have against Eldrazi, vial decks, or any fast combo deck. That said, because most of my games against Grixis end up going long and grindy, I'd imagine having 1-2 Standstills would be really good to help close games out. The card advantage comeback mechanic of Therapy Pyromancer is significantly worse if it allows your opponent to Ancestral Recall.
If you're still having trouble with the matchup after that, I'd recommend writing up/recording some of your matches and posting them here. At the end of the day, the play still matters more than the card choices and these Delver matchups have some of the most interactivity and play to them.
Thanks again for the feedback. Went 2-2 last night, beating Eldrazi and Burn, losing to UR delver and 4-color delver. I lost 2-0 vs. 4color, mulling to 5 in game 2 and it never felt like a game.
Vs. UR, in game 3, we both nut drew. I went for a turn 3 kill with Vines and FoW backup, and he had Force, blue card, Pyrokinesis, red card :(
I have access to borrow a Savannah, so I'll see how the white splash feels for a week or 2.
I play a lot of Infect in modern, and while I really they don't play the same at all, it has made me despise Dryad Arbor, so I'm not interested in a GSZ/Arbor package if I go straight UG.
I've been testing Standstill the last couple weeks and came to more or less the same conclusion as Jesture (great against Miracles/Shardless, but bad against a lot of the popular decks right now). When I was testing I cut Stifle and a fetch though and one thing I noticed is that I didn't miss the 20th land much at all.
Has anyone tested out Elvish Spirit Guide? Normally, I'd take another 1 CMC spell over it, but since it'd be replacing a fetch, I'm on the fence. Early game it gives another turn 2 opportunity w/Vines + Berserk and late game it's not really going to be any worse than top decking that extra land. I'm really keen on the idea of being able Vines or paying for Daze while I'm tapped out as well. Thoughts?
Tested ESG during my "irrationally angry at Chancellor of the Annex" phase. In the end, I ended up not liking the card because I realized that most of our green is proactive, as opposed to reactive like blue. Protecting creatures with Vines is a pretty ideal scenario, but it's also the only way we're protecting creatures with ESG (unless you're playing Apostle's Blessing, which you shouldn't be). Having an extra mana to go for expensive plays like Vines Berserk is also not something I see coming up often, as the limiting factor in comboing off is usually having enough ways to protect the creature and not just having enough mana to cast pump spells. Keep in mind ESG is also negative card advantage. The extra speed it provides isn't something that we're looking for in this deck, especially at the cost of total card count.
At the end of the day, I found myself wanting Daze more often than ESG. Having an extra way to interact at zero mana is functionally similar to having an extra mana to use to interact with, except I find the reactive plays to be more important to this deck than the proactive ones. They're also both pretty awful cards in the late game, which is why most of us have gone down to 3x Daze in the mainboard. That said, the ESG does seem better against taxing effects so maybe consider it if you know you're going to play against Thorn and Thalia all day. It did also pull out a win for me against a 5 port lock (1 Thespian's Stage copy) from R/G Lands, so the little spirit guide that could will always have a special place with the other cute tech cards (Divert, Teferi's Response) in my Infect binder.
I wouldn't cut the land. Sure it may work out for you in a couple of games, but the variance is eventually going to catch up to you. The colored source count in this deck is already pretty low, and you're basically dead in the water if your opening hand doesn't have one.
Thanks for the awesome reply, Jesture! I knew I couldn't possibly have been the only person whose thought about ESG. I have been running into a lot of D&T/Maverick at my LSG lately, so I might keep it thrown in there tonight just for kicks or run a few games with it in between rounds, but definitely sounds like a no go moving forward.
Red based tempos are far more challenging than its BUG counterparts. Gladly we’ve seen a decline in RUG’s number but 4cc and grixis delvers are still widely played. If you can maneuver well against tons of hate and quick clock, you have a good chance. The BANT version did improve my matchup vs this archetype.
with BANT, I have access to 3stps/1rip (absolute law is very good here! I dropped it coz I havent seen much grixis/rug lately in my meta)
I’ve talked to a friend who’ plays well with grixistempo, and he mentions there are several times, even with tons of cantrips theyre helpless once we establish a clock and presents sufficient mana for protection. Their plan is land a mini clock (delver, drs, yp) and start tearing our minis with drawn removals. Several times I’ve landed a RIP too vs them and it does make a great effect, whether im seeing if they shaved a gurmag or not... but by shutting down DRS access to manas, it does slow down their interaction vs our infectors, especially when we go for the kill.
here’s my SB plan vs GRIXIS TEMPO:
- 4 fows (card disadvantage)
- 2 dazes (I only carry 2, with a resolved DRS.. it’s not that efficient when not drawn early)
- 2 bimmense (hard to resolve them vs any drs.dec)
- 1 glistener
+3 stps (any blocker presented will be neutralized, and they arent crit heavy deck)
+2 flusterstorms (1 maindecked, anytime I can get hold of my pumps, there’s no stopping my combo)
+2 pithing needles (wastelands, grims)
+1 viridian corrupter (twice I got a needle with this, sometimes they have ratchet bombs too.)
+1 RIP (chains of therapies, gurmags, grims and drs will just be vanillas)
Anyways, in other news... been short with my last 2 outings to reach top8 (both 3-2 finishes), but still on a winning track and with lesser tiebreaks. My recent adjustments did great versus my hated eldrazi matchup, but I did fall twice vs ANT, which im comfortable battling with. DnT’s are on a rise too with 2 more in my meta. I’ll bringing in NULL ROD. I’ll try to test tomorrow.
sbs:
1 RIP
2 surgicals
3 stps
2 krosan grips
1 seal primordium
2 pithing needles
1 null rod
1 viridian corrupter
2 flusterstorms
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So Spirit Guide wasn't good, as expected. But, she did deal the last 2-points of damage (with a Pendelhaven buff) to beat my Esper Blade opponent who stuck a Humility on me, so she'll always have a place in my heart (but probably not in my deck again).
I greatly appreciate that the best thing we have to say about Elvish Spirit Guide is that it synergizes with Pendelhaven while under Humility. You know, like every other creature ever printed.
Interesting to see new suggesting like ESG.
I've thought of a few myself.
Viral Drake http://magiccards.info/scans/en/nph/49.jpg
Tezzeret's Gambit http://magiccards.info/c16/en/99.html
They seem bad, but lets discuss anyway.
Obviously they are expensive to cast. 3 mana and 4 mana is not very easy for us.
However the Drake dodges maze of ith and bolt, decay and most sweepers (an infecter that cant die? ('cept STP..) And blocks delvers, etc. all day.
He can just sit there pinging for 1 and even shrink creatures with -1/-1 counters further.
Maybe as a 1-off in the main or board against decks that dont kill us fast or a slow meta.
Troublesome against wastelands tho..
Pros:
-dodges almost all removal and sweepers (bolt, decay, staticaster, forked bolt, g. charm, elesh,... - and dismember with 1 invigorate)
-has evasion
-chump blocks well
-presents fast kill like any infecter after landing
-gets around a stalled board state (maze, bridge, etc.) with proliferate
-pitches to FOW
-makes use of unused mana
Cons:
-CMC4... weighs highly :(
-new target for Ph. Revoker
-Replaces what??
-pendelhaven doesnt work on it
Gambit cant compete with probe, ponder or brainstorm, but the proliferate looks fun here also.
Last edited by Neffy; 12-08-2016 at 07:13 AM.
Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him
I hadn't considered the drake, but I've looked at contagion clasp as a way to kill delvers and proliferate late game once I've run out of steam.
I have tested Tezzeret's gambit as a single copy in main to fight the occasional case of "I dealt 9 poison and then cannot stick a creature anymore". I wasn't thorough enough while testing it but the occasional card advantage was nice. As far as I remembee, it never really made a difference.
I have also thought of Contagion clasp before and once even took them to a tournament but never saw them. The thing is that I did this to fight miracles back in the days when I just couldn't win them no matter what. Then I practised the matchup inside out and haven't had problems since.
The reason to try these cards was to find a playable card that has proliferate. I guess there just aren't any that suit the mana restructions of this deck. Thrummingbird is interesting as it´s cc is reasonable but that one I actually have never played outside EDH.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Hey guys, been playing legacy for some time though I've only recently picked up infect and I was just curious as to the white splash.
Basically, I imagine STP is a huge edge against cards such as Elesh Norn, but what other match ups does the card shine in?
Also, is there a consensus on running 1 or 2 crop rotations in the main to support the splash?
Thanks in advance.
I play Loams sometimes.
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