Yeah that's fair. Admittedly the comparison to Counterbalance was a bit far fetched, but my point was mostly that they have plenty of ways to circumvent counter magic between Vial and Cavern (and SFM if you're talking about Jitte). More on Burn below.
I went back and looked up some old Tom Ross articles on the subject of sideboarding. The most recent article is dated from 2015, but it doesn't look like Burn and DnT have changed too much since then. Article can be found here.
With that in mind, I think I'll give the Forces against Burn another try. In recent memory, I've run a pretty dedicated white splash with upwards of 3x Swords to Plowshares, plus stuff like Absolute Law and Mother of Runes that all help a tremendous amount with the matchup. Without those cards, however, I can definitely see how the Forces are more necessary.
Hi guys,
So I went third-fourth this weekend in a tournament with 53 players and this was my list. Just wanted to see what you guys think about the mainboard and the sideboard since I seem to prefer other cards than many other infect players. The results are on mtgtop8 by the way (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15458&d=294147&f=LE).
So far I'm thinking about swapping the Invasive Surgery for another Flusterstorm since I've never been able to actually get the delirium going, but I am quite happy about double spellskite with all the creature removal going around right now. I also run a viridian corrupter main, which has been working great for me.
20 LANDS
4 Inkmoth nexus
4 verdant catacombs
2 misty rainforest
2 windswept heath
1 forest
1 pendelhaven
1 wasteland
4 tropical island
1 dryad arbor
13 CREATURES
4 blighted agent
4 glistener elf
4 noble hierarch
1 viridian corrupter
27 SPELLS
4 invigorate
4 brainstorm
3 vines of vastwood
3 force of will
3 gitaxian probe
3 daze
1 become immense
1 crop rotation
2 berserk
2 spell pierce
1 sylvan library
15 SB
1 pithing needle
1 grafdigger’s cage
1 crop rotation
1 invasive surgery
1 krosan grip
2 spellskite
1 force of will
1 flusterstorm
1 hydroblast
1 submerge
1 surgical extraction
1 bojuka bog
1 wasteland
1 karakas
with all the creature removals around isn't it a good time for 2 Blossoming Defense?
I've got that question a few times before, but I haven't really felt the need for it so far. It hasn't been great for me in testing and I also wouldn't know what to cut from the mainboard.
I've been testing out a second Become Immense and I'm not super sold on it, as I feel like it's not pumps that I'm missing, it's forcing the damage through with all the creature decks running around my meta.
Been thinking about either a 2nd Ponder or a 3rd Berserk. Any advice?
I'm currently on two Become Immense, but it's supported by 4 Force, 4 Daze, and 3 Ponders. In the past, when I ran Force/Daze/Ponder at 3/3/1 respectively, I found it too difficult to dump cards in the graveyard. I think the deck is perfectly playable with one Become Immense, so don't try too hard to squeeze in a second copy.
You could definitely bump the Ponder count up, but I wouldn't recommend playing a 3rd Berserk as it can be a huge liability against decks that play removal. That said, if your problem is getting through opposing blockers I'd recommend trying a pair of Mother of Runes in the sideboard. They've been a great way to not only protect your creatures but also give your Glistener Elves evasion for the board stall standoffs that occur in the later stages of the game.
on berserk: I realize people know this, but don't forget that it's often a dual-use as a Dismember (pay ~4-5 life more than you would've to kill a dude.) Had a guy nuke my tombstalker to buy himself a couple turns the other day.
It's worth mentioning that it didn't win him the game, but maybe had his draws been better..
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD28033S/
This is what I have been playing recently, for reference.
I agree with a lot of what Ross wrote there, and in general most of it still applies (Neither deck has changed by more than ~5 cards since then).
I generally board pretty lightly against burn, and at the moment all 4 of my Forces and my Flusterstorm are in the main so there aren't even a lot of things I want to add. Hydroblast is of course a powerhouse. My removal is generally Submerge and Dismember, so none of that is worth bringing in. Pithing Needle a consideration if I know they have multiple Lavamancers, but otherwise narrow. This is a spot where things like StP and Absolute Law really show their strength. Absolute Law is preeeettty close to a 2 mana sorcery that says 'you win the game', and Swords is efficient removal, lifegain in a pinch, and broadly answers things like Eidolon and Lavamancer that can cause trouble. I have Nature's Claim and Seal of Primordium, which are worth thinking about as Eidolon removal and backdoor lifegain, but they are pretty narrow considering how little we care about things like Sulfuric Vortex. In general I just trim a few probes or Ponder and slot in Hydroblast and another card or two that seem effective against whatever my opponent is doing.
Yeah, switching between Dazes and Forces is something I usually do. Since I was on the play against DnT, I took out all of the Dazes and kept the Forces to counter an early Vial.
I may as well not board the Library on the draw, that is a good idea.
[QUOTE=Runner5678;1007204]
Other things to keep in mind. Crop Rotate, the Ponders, the second Become Immense, the 3rd Berserk, the Misdirection, are all not part of the stock core and can be subbed out pretty easily. Don't overboard, but it's a good thing to keep in mind.
[\QUOTE]
Overboarding is one of my most annoying weaknesses with this deck I feel. But isn't the Crop Rotation in the core package for like half a year or even a year now? I'll talk about some of my crazy choices on the bottom of this post.
Not playing a Wasteland in the main, so I can't take it out in this matchup. I thought of Misdirection as another Force and as a way to scew up his Turnabouts.
[QUOTE=Jesture;1007373]
Between 4 vials and 2-3 Caverns, your counter magic is regularly dead in this matchup. Yeah it's great to be able to t1 Daze the Vial, or Force the Swords after a lethal pump, but keep in mind that this is a deck that could regularly play through the Counterbalance lock of Miracles, which is arguably far stronger than any collection of permission spells you can assemble.
Your sideboard should be pretty full of reactive answer cards, I'd look to take out most of your counter magic and replace it with creature removal, Needle/Null Rod effects, artifact hate, and whatever other tools you may have to deal with Jitte.
[\QUOTE]
Yeah, that is basically what I do as well. I keep in one or two Forces to occasionally counter their first Vial or some removal spell/Jitte if they ever cast it.
[QUOTE=Jesture;1007373]
There's rarely a reason to be playing so many Force of Wills against Burn, as experienced burn pilots will play this as a control matchup and simply save instant speed burn spells for your creatures. Leaving a single Force in to hedge against aggressive starts is defensible, but for the most part this one turns into a game of patience where the opponent tries to tempo you out while holding up enough Burn to prevent you from comboing off. The white splash brings a lot of powerful sideboard tools (StP, Absolute Law, Mother of Runes), but outside of that you'll just look to bring in cheap enchantment removal for Eidolon and one for one permission spells like Flusterstorm and Hydroblast.
[\QUOTE]
They try to be a controlish deck against us, but our pump spells are counterspells against all of their removal (which is not that much tbh). Playing a turn 2 Agent with Force of Will backup feels almost like a win, so I never board out Forces, since I can easily take out the probes and bring in more interactive stuff.
I didn't really draw any Invigorates in the games against High Tide, so I could not dump it and bait the counters. I boarded Vines back in, since I wanted to be sure, to have an attacking creature for the rest of the game in case he tries to Snap it. In that case I can keep my countermagic for his stuff, and protect my creature for and I don't have to care about his Snaps.
That sounds solid - I'll try that the next time against Delver.
Here is a (more in-depth) explanation of my choices:
The Misdirection is currently in beta testing phase of my deck: I really like to have a way to deal with Abrupt Decay or stuff, when I'm tapped out. Against counterheavy decks it acts as the forth Force of Will. And misdirecting a removal spell against Delver onto one of his creatures feels quite awesome as well.
2 Ponder/1 Spell Pierce: I always thought, Infect has enough ways to protect the guys between Dazes, Forces and Vines, so I thought, playing two Ponder might make the transition to the midgame a bit better and it gives you something to do on turn 1 if you have no Noble/Elf.
No Wasteland main because I don't see that much annoying lands anymore (Maze is checkable with Vines), so I decided to put it into the board, and bring it in whenever I need to.
Greetings
Drinkme
Infect | Elves
This is how to approach sideboarding with the deck
https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...fect-part-one/
And this is a list of 80+ sideboard options for you to consider and when and where they would be good.
https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...t-part-2-list/
Nic's previous article is now part of the primer. https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...g-with-infect/
I hope these two will be as well
Enjoy!
Sib
Without CBalance, Grip is even stronger.
No chance to be countered at all
Yeah I'm not using Grip anymore. You can use Naturalize, Nature's Claim, or Seal of Primoridium if you still want that effect. Claim is great if you don't need the removal for Chalice and is what I'm currently using in my Grip spot. I also run Seal and Viridian Corrupter as ours to Chalice if I want them.
LSV's latest "What's the Play" features some interesting mechanics you all are no doubt familiar with: https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...infect-legacy/
This one's on the simpler side, but I definitely like the idea of getting some "What's the Play?" type questions in here. Decision trees with Infect can get really complicated, and they tend to make for really interesting discussions.
For the LSV question, the solution comes down to how you expect the opponent to make blocks. I recall reading in the follow up solution post that the Infect player hasn't made their land drop, so it's almost definitely correct to look for a Fetch or Invigorate off of Brainstorm as opposed to hoping your opponent makes the Thalia block (which doesn't seem likely on their part, especially if Become Immense is on their radar.) That said, if you're somehow omniscient and know they're going to block the Elf with Thalia, go ahead and swing with both creatures.
I also struggle with pushing damage through. Has anyone contemplated distortion strike? It's recurring and pitches to fow
That's more of a modern tier card. After trying modern infect I also tried Distortion Strike in legacy back in the days but it's not what the deck really needs. If you really have slots for Distortion Strike, try Crop Rotation instead. It's effectively an evasive creature.
I've had my eye on Maulfist Revolutionary for a while. The idea of getting a poison counter through without attacking is interesting. If the opponent's deck involves attacking, you could say two poison. It's sort of an expensive proliferate effect with an upside. How often do you end up in the 8-9 poison range and then just lose because you can't attack profitably anymore or never get a creature to stick? If it happens in some significant amounts, maybe Revolutionary could be worth testing. The lack of infect is an obvious issue.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
I think that if you want this effect, it should just be a Tezzeret's Gambit. A 3/3 body can attack and block, but it is unlikely to be super high impact. On the balance, digging further into your deck is much more likely to be productive.
If you are thiking about Distortion Stike, I think Slip Through Space should also be on the radar. They are alike and different enough that one is never going to be strictly better. Not pitching to Force or pumping is a minus, but the immediate cantrip is a strong effect. I don't think the lack of pump or rebound actually makes a huge difference, because the place where this effect shines is to hit for lethal when you have enough pump but can't get through their defenses. It is possible that this could take two turns, but more often than not you can assemble lethal in just one turn. Apostle's Blessing could also be an option, because it doubles as protection.
At the end of the day, though, I think if you really really want more evasion you should just jam another Berserk. I don't like playing more than 2 because multiples don't stack too well, but if you are playing against creatures using the first as a Dismember and the second for pump isn't an unreasonable plan.
I have tested Gambit but it never did enough. That might hint that the whole proliferate idea is useless.
My expectations rest on the fact that Revolutionary pseudo-proliferates pseudo-twice and doesn't get hit by Pierce/Flusterstorm etc. The question is whether that matters at all.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
For the What's the Play, Crop Rotation and Vines+Land also win on the spot. Vines probably wins it for us as well in response to the Jitte equip. Brainstorm is very live.
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