Originally Posted by Svyelunite
All the Stoneblade matchups are tough, but especially Esper since we can't even screw with their mana and they frequently bring stuff like Zealous Persecution and Lingering Souls to the game. Both of those are tough to beat if we aren't super fast.
Caleb Scherer is a super nice guy. He and I have roomed together a bunch and he knows how to navigate a game where all his opponent has to disrupt is Counterspells (ie Infect) really well. In our practice games I'm like 10-30That said, Storm is usually a coin-toss anyway so don't beat yourself up over that loss. All of those other matchups should favor you, especially with your MD configuration, so it looks like it went about as expected. Sorry about missing Top 8, but still a good showing, so Congrats!
I was on the draw G1, mulliganed to 5 (Hand was like: Spell Pierce, Noble, Elf, Invigorate, Daze), figuredwith Scry and draw phase I have 2 chances to hit a land and this hand is about as good as it gets on 5, so I kept. My draw for turn was Inkmoth Nexus..........
Well, technically...
Lol, thems the beats though. I know you said you didn't play Legacy much, but will you be attending any other of the Opens this season? Seems like you have the chops to T8 one of these Classics at some point!
So a few questions from a Modern player converting to Legacy:
Is Infect tier 1?
How is the Miracles matchup?
What are bad matchups in Legacy for this deck?
I play Infect in Modern, so I am really familiar with the deck, but I want to have a Tier 1 deck coming into this format, so any advice is appreciated :D
Deck I'm working towards: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-05-16-miracles/
This is an interesting question as I've been thinking about it a lot recently. I've had some decent success locally and in larger events (Day2ed GP Detroit), so a part of me wonders if I made a strong run at something I could probably get there.
So I think I might but I don't really think I have any aspirations to be a true grinder/make the PT. I have a good career and life that I enjoy more than the MTG Grinder life. I think the occasional large event is a good start.
Not that you wanted my life story..
KingOfThePanda, this deck is pretty different than the build in Modern, but the parallels do exist and experience in one does help the other at least a little bit.
Infect is listed as Tier 1 on these forums right now but that could change. I can't speak to the match-ups but I would encourage you to not get hung up on if this deck is Tier 1 or not. The difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 in Legacy is almost nothing, particularly when compared to Modern or Standard.
In the end, if you think it's a deck that you would enjoy playing and you'd be good with, it's probably worth building.
At the risk of being a shameless self-promoter, I'd encourage you to check out what Tom and I have to say about Legacy Infect being Tier 1, its good and bad matchups, and how to approach the deck if you're coming from Modern... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN-iyFJfhEM
Oh god, I have some strong opinions about this.
Going in the opposite direction as you, I'm a long time legacy player and decided one day that it'd be fun to sleeve up Modern Infect, play a couple of practice games, and try it out at a GPT. Maybe a little ambitious for a Modern amateur, but I was playing for experience more than anything, as getting the bye was both unlikely and not at all useful for me.
I'm just going to skip to the end and say that if Legacy Infect feels like a fist fight, Modern Infect felt like tying my hands behind my back and repeatedly throwing my head up against my opponent's until one of us backed down. Except in some matchups (Grixis control) your opponent is a robotic unicorn with a metal horn, and your head just explodes in trying to play around 18 main deck removal spells with 4 vines and maybe 2 spell pierces.
But legacy.
Welcome to the team! I firmly believe legacy Infect is tier 1 at this point, and a huge part of that is because it has game against everything. To address your question about Miracles, strong proponents of each deck will disagree with each other and tell you that their deck is favored in the matchup. What they do agree upon, however, is that the matchup is very close, and that the skill of each individual player matters far more than their respective deck choices. So naturally, given the forum you're in right now, I'm going to tell you that Infect is slightly favored, but will lose to Miracles a lot until you've spent an ample amount of time practicing the matchup.
I feel as though Infect doesn't have too many bad matchups, and the worst of the worst is maybe only a 40/60 against you. R/G Lands tends to be difficult, so I'd put that at maybe a 40/60 matchup, maybe more or less depending on how you sideboard. Shardless is also tricky, but they're sometimes lacking on counter magic which lets you set up a quick kill and get them before they get the card advantage rolling. I'd put that one closer to maybe a 45/55, but again, a lot of this is going to depend on your sideboard and how proficient you are as a player. Aside from those two, I'd say the next worse matchups are all 50/50's, and those would include red bolt decks (Grixis, Burn, RUG in order of my personal most to least difficult) and the combo decks of the format (ANT, Sneak and Show). You tend to do really well against any slower deck that's trying to tax you (Death and Taxes, MUD) but sometimes run into trouble with any deck that can power out a t1 chalice or a fast lock piece.
If you're looking to take the plunge, I say go for it, especially if you already have a lot of the pieces from modern. Until then, have fun counting to ten and feel free to ask any further questions about the decks matchups.
I wouldn't play decks based on what's tiers, but if you're asking if infect is deck capable of winning a tournament of any size, I'd say yes. That's vague and true of a lot of decks so that's why you shouldn't pay attention to tiers in legacy, build what you love to play.
Miracles is a good matchup, assuming you have fast hands. Sometimes they will just draw all 4 swords and counter magic and then get their lock in place but you can still grind them out (sometimes). I find Shardless/Grixis delver/a good storm player to be the hardest matchups. They're all winnable, but lists that maindeck baleful strix can present some problems. The cabal therapy in grixis is really annoying to play against, too, but once you learn how to brainstorm and hide cards it's just requires more patience than tapping out and turning dudes sideways.
Today? Yes, will it continue to be? Hard to say, it is a very good deck that will steal wins in a large room and preys on decks stumbling on themselves. I wouldn't worry about the tier of a deck in legacy, the format is much more about knowing your deck and what your opponent could be doing against you. The more familiar you are with your deck the better off you will be.
It's not fun. It really depends on the two pilots. I believe infect to be favored game one and a slight underdog game 2 and 3. It is a winnable matchup but requires a good pilot.How is the Miracles matchup?
RUG delver, and GR lands are bad. We have the toolbox to beat them but it is not easy.What are bad matchups in Legacy for this deck?
If you choose to play infect in legacy be prepared to find a new deck in modern. Once you play t1 elf, turn 2 invigorate berserk with daze, force of will and vines protection in hand you will never want to play the modern version again. It is just a worse version of the deck.I play Infect in Modern, so I am really familiar with the deck, but I want to have a Tier 1 deck coming into this format, so any advice is appreciated :D
Hahahahaha, I just snorted at my desk and now my coworkers think I'm even weirder.
Regardless, truer words may never have been spoken.
Glad I could make you laugh. My friends always ask why I don't just sleeve up infect in modern, they just don't get it.
Great job man, really enjoyed the interview. It's nice to see two infect players compare experiences and opinions, especially experienced ones you and the boss! Good to know that even a cat like Ross is still mastering the deck too; I love this deck so much that I even like losing if it can teach me how to avoid it the next time!At the risk of being a shameless self-promoter, I'd encourage you to check out what Tom and I have to say about Legacy Infect being Tier 1, its good and bad matchups, and how to approach the deck if you're coming from Modern... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN-iyFJfhEM
Honestly, once you play legacy be prepared to sell your modern staples :P
Oh man, this is so true. The only dual I own multiples of is Tropicals, and I was looking for a modern deck to maybe poke my feet into the format even though I know it's awful, so I went with infect since I could port it to legacy pretty easily. I now own both decks, have played legacy infect a TON and have gotten excellent results with it, and have maybe shuffled up the modern version 3 times since its completion. The modern deck just feels so terrible to play.
I started out great at a small tourny yesterday with some fun games. Here are some highlights:
Reanimator:
G1 I play pendelhaven+noble, he goes U.sea+entomb finding elesh norn +lotus petal + reanimate --> i have the force. pwew (for now)
Next turn I draw my signleton crop rotation and go in the tank. I know the deck plays few lands, and seeing a hand with a turn 1 "kill" might make him keep a 1-lander. I croprot the pendelhaven for the single wasteland and nuke the sea. I play g.elf.
He draws no land, top deck bimmense --> hit for 8 --> he draws no land. 1-0. Damn decisions decisions. yeha.
G2 he finds elesh norn and reanimates, I force again. He izzet charms my agent. He then exhumes --> i croprot for bog, nukes his yard and get my blighted back :p good
Also took out Grixis Delver. which felt good.
Loam Lands:
I faced loam lands. G1 is insanely close and drags out. He has Dark depths, stage, maze of ith, port and tabernacle. I have 2 elves, 2 inkmoths, 1 forest. He keeps tapping my forest, and i have to pay for the elves with the inkmoths and never drew lands. I sit with vines. some point I draw waste, play it, and wait. He ports it EOT his turn and i waste his maze, he makes a 20/20. I attack with a elf with noble trigger, and he blocks (i am at 19 life from a fetch, and need to survice a turn) luckily he blocks, and the token is reduced to a 18/18. He takes his turn and attackes me to 1. and loams for depths and another stage.....
My turn I have top pray he doesnt make a new token to block with, i draw blighted agent too late. I vines before combat avoiding his recurring mazes, and invigorate for a lot, but he makes a new Marit Lage. sad face.
G2 I play pendelhaven, elf, he goes maze. I vines with kicker and hit for 6 with pendelhaven. He goes something, go. I draw croprot -> sacs pendelhaven (no lands now, but a single Noble in play), i find waste and takes out his Maze, and berserks a pendelhaven'ed elf for 10.
G3 he t1's molten vortex.. auch. he established loam lock and kills dual nobles :( Never recover. GG
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Great games, but i have a question - how do you side against lands? Vines is obviously great - and i keep thinking i should have 2 needles in the board. Poxy, you love needles? You are happy with them?
Do you keep forces in, for the fast kill and to stop loam, etc?
,
Thanks!
Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him
Needles and grave hate. It's a bad matchup so don't get your hopes too high still. Force of will usually doesn't win you the game. Two Forces might but that's not the game you want to be playing against recursion.
Needles are pretty much mandstory to fight lands and many other problematic cards.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Teferi's Response.
Has anyone tried invasive surgery? I'm kind of hesitant to even try it although I have 3x probe and 2x ponder for extra sorceries.
So Envelop is a reasonable Magic card. I don't think we're going to turn on Delirium all that often in this deck, so maybe play Invasive Surgery where you'd play Envelop and then hope to occasionally turn on Delirium for maximum blowouts.
We discussed it a while back when it was spoiled. As jesture pointed out delirium is harder to turn on this deck. We can get instant, land, and sorcery really easily but getting that last one is a bit tougher and usually an indication things aren't going well.
Sleeve it up and try it out though! I'm curious to see what others impressions of it are.
I haven't tried it so take my opinion lightly, but I think the matchups where it would shine the most are Miracles, Sneak/Show, and ANT, none of which kill our guys (to the GY) so it'll almost always just be Envelop. That said, Envelop is playable and this is almost strictly better so if you already use one, upgrade?
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