Think Naturalize is the way to go these days if you want 2cmc artifact/enchantment removal. Seal of Primordium started picking up steam around the DTT era when Omnitell was the deck to beat for basically the reasons you listed regarding Omniscience and also because you could run it out earlier and make them think twice about putting Omniscience into play. These days though the artifacts and enchantments you want to destroy are more often lock pieces (Chalice, Blood Moon, Back to Basics) and less often win conditions so you typically want your Naturalize effects to be instant speed in order to minimize the window of time you give an opponent to respond.Originally Posted by theMonster
I can only think of a few situations in which you'd prefer to have the Seal in today's meta game. Maybe against Miracles as an early hedge against Counterbalance or B2B, but overall the instant speed clause seems better than the ability to be proactive with artifact/enchantment hate.
@Jesture, I've never loved any Seal effects because of the sorcery speed nature of them and opponents' ability to play around them. I tried some Seal of Fire in RUG Delver way back when and was never thrilled with it. (Deathrite not being able to eat it was a plus, but I digress ...) That said, Seal also gets around Flusterstorm, which may or may not be important. Miracles plays CB and B2B and can defend them against Naturalize with Flusterstorm -- do we care? Regarding Naturalize effects targeting win conditions, the big one I see is Bitterblossom, but if that's the only target the opponent has, I presume we're not bringing in the effect in the first place, especially with my list running Spell Snare. Once the Faerie Rogues hit the table, the damage is done.
Naturalize certainly seems reasonable, and I'll probably end up playing it. I'm just thinking out loud to make sure I don't miss anything, so thanks for adding to the discussion.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1545278#online
"Welcome back, my Master."
Hehe, thank you for noticing my little result. I had two 5-0's with Infect recently, and I think the deck is in a not so bad place now, what do you all think?
Deathrite gone - good.
Probe gone - net positive. I never liked it much in Infect anyway, although I would probably still play the 1-of.
BUG lists not as fast now and metagame cutting down on Abrupt Decay numbers for Assassin's Trophy is good (but I did get blown out of the sky once with Trophy on my Inkmoth).
I feel confident against any kind of UW control (UWB maybe not so much), D&T, elves and combo, while decks with Lightning Bolt in them remain the hardest to beat overall.
I think that the deck can be placed higher than it is now, moreover what you say indicates several favorable situations to Infect. Probe is definitely not necessary for this deck, Ant has show us how to win without it, I don’t understand why we need it again!
are you convinced by your 75? I really like the synergy with the graveyard that bring regrowth and 2 jace! is there any choice that does not convince you completely?
Is there any choice that does convince me completely? Not really.
I played the legacy challenge yesterday to 4-3 with the list you linked, same maindeck, sb -1 autumn's veil, -1 choking tendrils, +1 trickbind, +1 stonewood invocation.
Next time I will probably move the chain of vapor to maindeck, replacing 1 stifle.
The 'reach' granted by teferi's gambit has won a few games, but that card also has a tendency to draw me two dead cards. So maybe it could be something else. Maybe an Impulse.
Why a bounce effect? which threat scares you? Or it's only to fizzle removals on your buddies?Next time I will probably move the chain of vapor to maindeck, replacing 1 stifle.
Maybe a Library? Don't like it?The 'reach' granted by teferi's gambit has won a few games, but that card also has a tendency to draw me two dead cards. So maybe it could be something else. Maybe an Impulse.
Mostly for Marit Lage token, since there are so many of them in the meta now.
I am not a huge fan of Sylvan Library, I think it's just a little too slow, but it's always on my list.
Hi, Cartesian. I have a lot of questions about your list -- lots of spicy tech!
- You've built your deck to play a longer game: no Dazes, card advantage engines in Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Tezzeret's Gambit, etc. On average, is the format slow enough where you want two maindeck JVPs and no Dazes in your deck? I can see the +1 ability as a way to answer Strix, so in that kind of metagame, I assume JVP is excellent.
- Stifle in a deck with only one sideboard Wasteland and no Dazes feels unintuitive to me. Can you explain their role in your build?
- Is there not enough stuff like Liliana, the Last Hope and Blood Moon around to merit playing some number of Spell Pierces in place of Flusterstorms?
- You say you want to maindeck Chain of Vapor to deal with Marit Lage, but I've found the SlowDepths decks to be fairly good matchups without anything like that. Then again, you're playing a grindier version than most and have fewer Vines in your 75 to deal with stuff like Assassin's Trophy and Abrupt Decay. Do you just want a catch-all that hedges against a matchup that is growing more popular?
- In the Tezz Gambit spot, do you not like Ponder? Is there too much Chalice out there for your liking? I've found that I want more turn 1 plays in the event that I don't have Hierarch or Elf in my opener, so I'm playing Ponders. If you'd prefer a card advantage card, is Chart a Course at two mana instead of Gambit's three something you tried?
- I didn't even know Stonewood Invocation was a card -- pretty sweet. How was it for you? Four mana is a lot, but split second is powerful.
Thanks for your tinkering, and I look forward to your response!
Hey there theMonster, thanks for the good questions, i will try my best.
- No Daze: Yes well the thing I have pretty much decided that I don't like Daze in Infect. And when I say don't like, I don't mean the times when you have everything you need for a kill, and it saves you from that StP, or when it saves you from a fast blood moon - those times Daze is great. I mean overall I don't like it, as a protection spell. Infect is a very tight deck, with many potentially dead card draws in the late game. It can be very fast and kill on turn 2, and I will take those free wins, but most games in reality are not that fast and we need to play around stuff, develop our mana (this is important) and not lose before we can win. We need to worry about card quality, not only speed. Against control decks with much removal especially we often want to take a slower approach, until we assambled a win. In these slower games, Flusterstorm is like a million times stronger than Daze.
- Jace, Vryn: is an excellent card in this deck, I really like it a lot now that Deathrite is gone (Regrowth is live again for the same reason). Invigorate is the strongest card in the deck, if we draw two Invigorate it's hard to lose, and recasting Invigorate from the graveyard is just like drawing two. Jace is so strong for developing your hand is well, and tricks like shutting off Strix or saving you some damage is a very nice bonus for a deck with zero creature removal.
- Stifle: Mostly for protection against Wasteland, Maze of Ith, combo, time walk against Jitte, and stuff like that. It is in many ways a substitute for Vines number two. I am not particularly interested in attacking my opponent's manabase - both Stifle and Wasteland are for protection.
- No Spell Pierce: Here are some permanents that I don't care about: Chalice. Counterbalance. Vial. OK, Liliana and Blood Moon are bad news for sure, but Flusterstorm is so strong against so many other things I care about. I have Hydroblast in the sb to cover Blood Moon and Sneak Attack.
-Chain of Vapor. Could be your'e right that my playing style is weaker against Depths. Testing will tell if I like Chain maindeck or not.
-Ponder: Turn 1 Ponder is such a weak play. I would like to avoid having to make that play if at all possible. Also, we only have so many blue mana sources. I like to have the one Ponder for late game tutoring.
-Stonewood Invocation: Yes 4 mana is a lot, but I like it. It's impossible to play around. Can make Berserk a must counter in the late game.
Congrats on your recent successes! It's incredibly exciting to see new innovation, like a breathe of fresh air! I also have questions. One being why the split of Crypt and Macabra. Is it simply to be more specific against Dredge and RB Reanimator?, Was choking teachers effective and if so what are the main targets for it? and finally, what matchups are you brining in seeds of innocence? Seeming how one of the prevalent artifact prison lists is blood moon oriented has the Double Green been an issue or is it mostly there for Equipment based decks? Thanks a million! and best of luck in the future...
Hey Blinks. Thank you, but let's not exaggerate the importance of one 5-0 on MTGO.
Crypt/Macabre is just my preferred graveyard hate package. Crypt comes in against ANT, and all 4 cards against Reanimator/Dredge. I don't like Surgical Extraction.
Choking Tethers hasn't been very effective, so it will be replaced. It was meant for Eldrazi, Depths, and Emrakul.
Seeds of Innocence is for any deck that are likely to cast more than two artifact permanents. Could also be a Dissenter's Deliverance.
Good luck to you as well.
Hey guys,
I would like to have a comparison with you regarding what is said in this video starting from https://youtu.be/ynGjBEtmRaI?t=926
making Ponder against Preordain.
In the build history, Ponder has never been a primary role into the deck, if not as a gregarious, then putting it into debate seems more than legitimate.
I think this point of view is interesting and deserves further study!
What think about it?
Last edited by spector14; 01-04-2019 at 09:00 AM.
The theory is sound. A rough look at the statistics for this scenario (After 7 off the top with no Inkmoth, 1 land and a ponder looking at the next 3 and seeing a Inkmoth) puts it at around 1.88%. If you include the forest which could potentially create the same situation of not being unable to fetch puts it at 2.26%(again theres a lot more factors that have to come into account here but its a rough guide). Your likelihood of seeing the the Inkmoth at all drops .5 of a percent from having preordain see 2 cards instead of 3. To generalize the whole situation you have to play around 50 games where you have 1 land, 1 ponder and no Inkmoth and coloured source to have that situation come up once. Now you have to look at the fact that we're playing a main deck full of cards we're often looking to spike a game with Crop rotation, Wasteland, Berserk, a whole sideboard full of 1'ofs and anti combo cards that if we need them we need them ASAP. The extra look from a ponder or multiple ponders in a game is very relevant considering this. Testing and comparing results might be the best way to actually see the effects of each. There have been a few notable players, Josh Utter-Layton/ LSV (https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...y-channel-lsv/ ) in UB shadow. He explains his reasoning about 1 minute in and Jerry Thompson (http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ry-Format.html ) That have found a split to be more effective approach. This ended up much longer reply then expected lol but i am very excited to see some innovation and conversation in the effect community!
Also percentages worth noting.
Chances of having 1 coloured land when having 14 coloured sources = 33.95
Chances of having 2 coloured land when having 14 coloured sources = 32.29
Chances of having 1 coloured land when having 15 coloured sources = 31.63
Chances of having 2 coloured land when having 15 coloured sources = 32.21
Odds of having 1 ponder in your opening 7 = 33.6
Odds of having 1 ponder in your opening hand using only a 6 card sample because we know 1 card must be a land = 30.5
To conclude. If a hand of 1 coloured land and 1 ponder with no land + inkmoth did occur. It would have to happen 53 times to see the ponder into Inkmoth situation happen once. Again this is only rough numbers as there are countless other factors that slightly to largely skew the numbers.
Last edited by Blink; 01-04-2019 at 12:52 PM.
Anyone has any idea how do we beat B2B in miracles?
I have krosan's grip and Naturelize off my SB but thats 2 cards and once they catch us tapping out, we are fucked.
Cant even cantrip to find enchantment removals.
I am actually thinking of cutting a trops for a basic island. That would give us so much outs against moon/b2b/even wasteland protection. We are 2color deck, so i dont really see the reason to not go 3trops /1forest /1island. Anyone care to enlighten? It makes alot of sense to go with more basics especially in current meta where MD B2B are pretty prevalent and alot of decks playing moon off the SB.
I am gonna try with 1 basic island as it just doesn't make sense to not play it.
I get that it would be pretty bad if you draw island in opening hand with glis and hierach but then again we have got 7-8 cantrips and 19lands which is more than what other 2color decks like UR delver or UW stoneblade decks play.
At FNMs I've been testing Island over the fourth Trop partly because I need to borrow the fourth Trop in paper when I play larger events but also because I'm curious about how it plays, too. You're right, you will definitely have to mulligan the occasional Island + green cards opener -- this happened to me once last night. What happens more often, though, is you play Island + Trop and get Wasteland-ed. On the flip side, I've liked having another land to fetch when I get Assassin's Trophy-d or occasionally Veteran Explorer-ed, and in my experience, Island has helped me develop my mana when I can start with Island + Forest. All told, I think Island vs. the fourth Trop is close, but the latter is still a couple percentage points better. You will lose the occasional game due to either deckbuilding choice you make, but I think the fourth Trop is better slightly more often.
Last night I tested some of Cartesian's technology. I went 2-2, but all my game 3s were extremely close and could've gone either way. My matchups were, uhh, unrepresentative of the metagame: LED Dredge (game 3 I had to basically topdeck anything over two turns and couldn't), BUrG Nic Fit (my opponent tapped out for Pernicious Deed because I had an Inkmoth Nexus, and I dealt 22 with Noble Hierarch for the win), and Pox x2 (I Brainstorm-locked myself in game 3, stuck on two lands for about six or seven turns, then lost to topdecked Nether Void that I couldn't Spell Pierce because I didn't find a land and the active Lili that I could've beaten had I had mana; in the second matchup I got a tempo win thanks to Daze). Here's what I registered:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Invigorate
2 Berserk
3 Vines of Vastwood
1 Become Immense
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Chart a Course
1 Crop Rotation
1 Regrowth
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Pendelhaven
// sideboard //
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crop Rotation
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Dissenter's Deliverance
1 Naturalize
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Stonewood Invocation
I know Cartesian dislikes Daze, but I feel that I get so many wins because of it that I couldn't bear to cut it entirely. This version is definitely clunkier, though, so the mana setback hurts a little more, which is why I tried two copies instead of the usual three. No other card does what Daze does. At least the way I play the deck, it leads to a fair number of tempo-based wins. You can also create early game states where opponents can't afford to play around it. Plus certain postboard configurations have an awkward number of blue cards because I'm playing three Vines instead of Cartesian's Vines/Stifle distribution, so I want some answers to problematic cards like Liliana, the Last Hope when I'm tapped out. Maybe this is flawed thinking, but I've won too many games thanks to Daze to put it down. Two copies may not be the right number, but it felt fine last night.
Chart a Course was whatever. I cast it once and pitched it to Force another time. I normally play the third Ponder, but I wanted to try a blue card advantage card alongside JVP. I don't like that you're compelled to play it post-combat because I want to use my card draw spells to find pump and protection often. There are more two-mana cards in this configuration, too, so it's harder to deploy everything in your hand. I need to test this some more.
Regrowth was pretty good. I had an Invigorate --> Regrowth --> Invigorate kill set up with Blighted Agent, but my opponent Decay-ed it on his main phase. I Regrew my Agent and ended up killing him with it. I like that it's a flexible card that has multiple roles. I boarded it out against Dredge in favor of more efficient cards, but perhaps there are postboard configurations where you can, say, Regrow a Flusterstorm against combo or something. I have to play the card some more to find out what these configurations look like. Cartesian, I'd be curious to know how often you leave in this card.
JVP didn't do much for me last night, sadly. He definitely pushes up the curve, but he demands an answer. I'm torn because it helps overload creature removal, but opponents will have more answers to creatures postboard, meaning that you won't get to untap with him as often as you would, say, Sylvan Library. However, JVP, at least on paper, better facilitates Infect's game plan: recast pump spells, Regrow threats, neutralize Strix, etc. I need more reps with him before I can pass judgment.
Stonewood Invocation was so much mana. I can see where you can just "get" a control player, but that didn't really happen for me last night. I'll try it again.
I don't know if only one Become Immense is correct, but it felt fine. I found myself boarding out the second copy a fair bit against control decks, so I went with one this time.
I'll also play a Hydroblast in most sideboard configurations, but I didn't last night in favor of more graveyard hate and the Wasteland.
This might sound crazy, but has anyone considered, say, a Birds of Paradise in this deck? I feel Infect is SO much better with an accelerant on turn 1, especially now that cards like JVP are in the discussion. Plus Birds flies, so in the rare event that you need to kill with regular damage (which I did last night), you have an evasive threat to accomplish that. Either that or, like, a Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard? That should help our Delver and control matchups by just being able to play more spells than them. Daze would also improve slightly. Thoughts?
Last edited by theMonster; 01-05-2019 at 05:12 PM.
4-0d FNM last night, beating UWr Stoneblade (no Wastelands) by the skin of my teeth, UW Landstill, Manaless Dredge, and a sweet UW Spirits deck (with Wastelands) that forced an exhausting but exhilarating game 3. Here’s what I played:
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Glistener Elf
4 Blighted Agent
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Sylvan Library
4 Invigorate
2 Berserk
3 Vines of Vastwood
1 Become Immense
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Crop Rotation
1 Regrowth
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Pendelhaven
// sideboard //
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Hydroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Dissenter's Deliverance
1 Naturalize
1 Viridian Corrupter
1 Apostle’s Blessing
The JVP/Library split was just to test which card I liked in certain matchups and situations. Somehow I didn’t draw either in any of my matches, so the jury’s still out. If I decide, say, to play two JVP again, I might try a 1/1 maindeck/sideboard split and maindeck the fourth protection spell. (Apostle’s Blessing is kind of a pet card, but being able to cast it off Inkmoth Nexus has come up. It’s also won me games in the past for allowing me to attack through certain threats.)
Birds was interesting. I boarded it out against Stoneblade and Landstill but left it in against the Spirits deck because I thought blocking flyers and having more mana against Thalia would be relevant. (They were.) The deck feels great when you get to play an accelerant on turn 1 and when your mana is developed, so I thought it might be better than a 19th land, especially in game 1, because it accomplishes both. There might be corner case scenarios where you get to attack for damage with it, too, and the evasion could potentially make a difference. When the games go long, just board it out. Still need to play with it some more, but I think I like it so far.
Not sure about the Crop Rotation package in the sideboard. I like how much graveyard hate I have, but perhaps it’s overkill. Karakas helps my Sneak ’n’ Show matchup, and since I’m not on Wasteland right now, having Karakas against Marit Lage can’t hurt.
Really like how this deck is feeling!
I cut a fetch for a 2nd basic forest and its going pretty well.
#FreeNedLeeds
Professional Pain-in-Lincoln's-Ass, Team Topdecked
Decks:
Modern: Affinity
Legacy: Steel Stompy/"Dos Equis", SnS, Mono-R Sneak, Dragon Stompy, Infect, Eldrazi Aggro
Vintage: Shops, JacoDrazi
93/94: mono-b, BRUD
Small point, but DnT definitely sides out all Revokers against Infect. They are some of the worst cards in the maindeck. You name Noble Hierarch on the play and its not completely useless, but it is not worth keeping in when you can bring in Path, Canonist, Ballista, etc.
More than awkward openers, I would argue that Daze and Invigorate are the bigger reasons that this is a 4 Tropical Island deck.
I definitely understand your point, and I think as many as 3 basic lands could be right in certain metagames, and the current meta might very well call for a basic Island. If B2B and Blood Moon are all over the place, 2 Forests and an Island could be correct. However, there are plenty of reasons not to play it. The deck is very mana intensive, and extremely color intensive. Kicked Vines of Vastwood plus Berserk is all but impossible with a basic Island in play.
4 Ponder versions in particular can make good use of the blue mana, and using cantrips off Island (instead of relying on Hierarch) to dig for a Disenchant could be really nice.
Despite how color-intensive Infect is, it is actually surprisingly Wasteland resistant for a number of reasons.
1. Inkmoth is the main target. This isn't good, clearly, but it protects out colored mana.
2. Only 2 colors. If we fetch 2 Trops, or have a Noble Hierarch, it is impossible to shut us off a color with a single Wasteland.
3. Noble Hierarch. Noted above but worth saying again because the card is great.
4. Crop Rotation. One of this cards best uses is "countering" Wasteland.
Fetching too much around Wastleland can make it hard to function, in reality Blood Moon and b2b are the real cards we are worried about.
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