This one is rather spicy, if somewhat predictable if you know my predilections ;)
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...In-Legacy.html
I don't have low self-esteem, I have low esteem for everyone else. -Daria
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High Priest of the Church of BLA
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"Holdover Nimble Mongooses"
:(
A great well written article with a list I'll have to proxy up!
Matt Bevenour in real life
Great article as usual. :)
This is actually pretty close to what I've been playing with. I definitely want to maximize Dig Through Time in a control deck, which means moving away from Miracles.
I was playing Thopter / Sword as a way to win quickly but also because Digging for a 2-card combo is very appealing. I guess the big concern is being too graveyard-dependent, but it is capable of winning faster and really shores up the burn matchup which I'm concerned about otherwise.
I'll definitely give this a try.
Last edited by alphastryk; 10-21-2014 at 08:52 AM.
I'll definitely be putting this together soon. I'll probably try Impulse over Preordain because it's an Instant and sees between one and two additional cards, but it might not be good enough.
I share your general distaste for Stoneforge Mystic, so I'll probably start looking for another win condition as well.
This deck is super sweet. I have been missing this type of control deck and will definitely put it together.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Lambert solved the "not liking sfm" issue by using 1 etutor and 4 game ending cards that are inevitable and difficult to answer, and each excel in different situations: moon, bskull, keranos and assemble the legion. It takes up 5 slots but gives the deck some entreat the angels caliber threats.Originally Posted by H
@Tammit: Thanks, happy you liked it. Let me know how the deck does for you.
As to Mongoose, the stupid little bugger has killed me far too often to bemoan it being actually loose now ;)
@alphastryk (straight copy from CVM suggesting ThopterSword on SCG): I thought about incorporating Thopter-Sword but dismissed the idea for two reasons: First I didn't want a wincondition that was vulnerable to Rest in Peace as the heavy commitment to the delve spells already encourages boarding those in. With the build as is, I can still play a reasonable game along the lines of a pre-delve UWR Blade deck relying on Jace and Batterskull. Once that isn't the case any more, RIP becomes actually crippling.
Second each of the Thopter pieces is terrible on its own. In addition to my dislike towards having bad cards in my deck, that has an interesting effect on how effective Dig is. Yes, you would think that looking at your top 7 and taking two cards would be good to help complete two card combos (and it is in a dedicated combo deck like OmniShow) but in reality I don't think I'd ever take a lonely Thopter piece over some powerful standalone card when casting Dig. As a result, until you've drawn into one of the few copies of the combo, you're actually intentionally moving those combo pieces out of reach, significantly reducing your chances to end up setting up the combo before you've actually reached the point where you should be winning on raw cards anyway.
At that point, the Thopter combo could be any form of random finisher, even something clunky like Aetherling, and have a very similar effect. The reason I've chosen the set up I have is that SFM/Skull will always allow you to trade reasonably (even if the SFM is killed, it has essentially served as a free Funeral Charm).
All that being said, I haven't actually tried the ThopterSword setup so in spite of these theoretical concerns, I might just be wrong and that's how the deck should be aiming to end the game.
@btm10: Let me know how it does for you and definitely let me know if you find a more efficient win con. As far as Impulse is concerned, the instant speed and digging deeper is nice. Not sure if the low land count doesn't necessitate one mana cantrips, though. I generally keep any one (blue)land cantrip hand with this deck unless the rest of the hand is wildly unplayable.
@Svknoe: Happy you like it, let me know how it does.
@H&TheArchitect: Thanks for sharing, nice to see I'm not the only one looking to get these cards going in a control shell.
However, and I know this is going to sound harsh, "solving" the SFM problem with Keranos, Blood Moon, Assemble the Legion and Batterskull without SFM is not in any way reasonable. Those cards (other than Blood Moon which is good and might lock the game but certainly doesn't end it in round time) are honestly terrible. They cost five mana at sorcery speed, take forever (or at least five turns even under optimal conditions) to end the game and are complete blanks until you're already in control of the game. Two of them also don't actually do anything the turn they're cast and don't provide any reasonable value until at least two turns down the line (no a 1/1 or a free Bolt/card aren't what I expect my five mana play to have earned after already untapping with it). They're expensive, clunky ways to ensure inevitability if the opponent somehow doesn't kill you during the next four or so turns after you've spend a turn tapping out to do absolutely nothing. Giving you inevitability is what your card advantage engine should be doing, not cards that haven't been in any Legacy deck ever and for good reason (fine Keranos is sometimes played in Miracles. I don't think that is correct, either). The only thing that has gotten Batterskull anywhere near a Legacy deck without sol-lands is that it turns SFM into a 1W echo 4/4 lifelinker if the opponent doesn't have an early removal spell (which then leaves them down a card). I'd literally rather jam a duo of Aetherlings before those cards.
I don't have low self-esteem, I have low esteem for everyone else. -Daria
Proud member of Team CAB
High Priest of the Church of BLA
CAB JaceTM
My articles
SFM feels really bad as a 2-of with no other creatures main and only Batterskull to fetch with it. Control lists will handle Batterskull with little difficulty and aggro lists will remove the SFM's when you play one early to fetch a Batterskull.
The ETutor idea with the bomb enchantments and other artifacts seems much better.
I will. I am also very interested to see the result if you continue to tune it!
The Assemble the Legion build seems a lot worse than the SFM build. SFM takes less space and does something early if you happen to draw it then. Opening hand Keranos has to be horrible. That the other cards finish the game with more force seems irrelevant in comparison. It seems to me that what the deck needs is some interchangeable win condition that interferes as little as possible with your ability to control the game.
This deck is sweet. Not a fan of SFM but have used him in similar style decks too. I'm not sure what's better though. Aetherling? Keranos? Punishing fire? I think I'd rather just jam a 4th Jace and an Ajani vengant or something.
-IJ
Hello Carsten,
your articles are the best as always. Food for thoughts.
i have been thinking about rip / helm as a finisher (i used to play miracle with helm combo) but as we all know it s a nonbo with delve.
However reading your answer "First I didn't want a wincondition that was vulnerable to Rest in Peace as the heavy commitment to the delve spells already encourages boarding those in" made me think why not have helm as a sideboard card without RiP and count on the opponent to deploy RiP, here are the rationale :
Pros :
- RiP resilient win con by design
- Most white opponents will board RiP to prevent delve already shooting them in the foot as was pointed many times if RiP only tries to prevent delve (they bing in dead cards, you resolve one TC before their hate comes online and you win)
- in helm combo, RiP / helm are dead cards until you kill them unless you build around it (energy field ..) wich you do not want here. Counting on your opponent to bring the RiP part of the combo is actually very good, he will invest ressources in doing so (mulls, cantrips ...) and you only have one dead card
Cons
- helm is still a dead card
do we need eTutor package for this to work or is DTT enough?
I played stoneblade-style UW with Elspeth, knight-errant back right around when the mindsculptor was first printed, and I have to say, I did like having planeswalkers handy. Batterskull later on was obviously just bonkers, but even finding jitte and sofi was fine at the time. Why not move back to more of a superfriends style win package? Maybe cut the squires and batterskull for an Elspeth, an Ajani, and maybe something like a Chandra pyromaster or something? Not sure what else would fit, but I could certainly see running a couple additional planeswalkers as win cons.
Have now jammed 15 games with the following mainboard, 3 each against Death and taxes, Miracles, UR Viking Funeral, Sneak and Show, and Lands (4c, mainboard bog and smokestack as per the more recent builds on the lands thread):
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 island
1 plains
1 mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ajani Vengant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Dig through Time
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterspell
1 Supreme Verdict
Death and Taxes:
3-0. Jesus, verdict + 2 EE's bought me back to back to back 2/3 for 1's after some early beats, the last time a verdict + counterspell held up, next turn dig and slam Ajani, Ajani took it home. They can't beat that card I don't think, it just hoses them really hard. Game 2, took some beats, baited him into overextending, got the 4 for 1 verdict on 5 (mom, thalia, revoker (naming jace) and flickerwisp). Followed it up with path + Ajani, rode Ajani home. game Three, he stumbled on mana (he kept double vials, plains, wasteland, mom, some 2-drops) and I pierced the first vial, forced the second one, and then turn 5 Ajani on the play goes all the way with some aid from Elspeth and jayce bouncing and chumping into a one-sided Armageddon + jace fateseal lock.
Miracles:
2-1. Beating resolved counterbalance was rough, but not too rough. Certainly easier than the counterbalance mirror. Had too much countermagic for him to beat. Ajani ult sealed the deal here, but the mvp was jace fatesealing lands to the bottom after I started ticking Ajani up. He got game two, just never got anything going. game three saw the superfriends trio vs jace + countertop lock, and superfriends wins that one. I like Elspeth a lot from this matchup, it's a continuous source of pressure that is hard for them to interact with.
Viking Funeral:
2-1. Game one on the play, verdict on curve gets his team, countermagic backup ensures he never gets back in the driver's seat. Game two, he runs me over. Game three, I keep triple swords plains island island Ajani on the draw, topdeck into mountain, ponder, misdirection, trade with all his dudes, then drop Ajani and it's game over. He got mana screwed game three and I had him stuck on 2 untapped lands all game because of Ajani, so that seems like more of a case of his deck misbehaving than this deck being at all crazy. Matchup feels like it'll be really bad g1 on the draw, and hard on the draw postboard, fairly simple on the play postboard, probably even on the play g1.
Sneak and Show:
1-2. Game one he wins the roll and has ancient tomb, lotus petal, show and tell, emrakul, force of will, blue card, gitaxian probe, saw my hand only had one force for interaction, he jammed the combo, it resolved, he won. Game two, on the play, I keep force, force, ponder, plains, fetch, spell pierce, top. I decide to drop plains and jam top, he doesn't have anything but cantrips, I untap and draw an additional counterspell, and take the game away from there. I eventually counter all of his show and tells and sneak attacks, and he just scoops when he's out of win cons. Truth be told, I think I pitched all my jaces to force of wills and misdirections, so it woulda been a long finish anyway. Game three he hits that sweet spot of a turn 3 show and tell for grisselbrand with three pieces of countermagic, I only have a top to drop, and he draws 14 cards and I'm done.
Lands:
0-3. This matchup feels possibly even more miserable for the treasure cruise player than miracles in the same matchup. Relying on planeswalkers or an engineered explosives lock on a deck with a creeping tarpit, punishing fire engine, and their own EE lock is just miserable. Game two he just ghost-quartered out all my basics, and in all three games he was able to rotate into an early bog to turn off my graveyard, leaving me with a ton of dead dig through times in hand to his bog + crucible+ zuran orb package in game three, and game one my dig in response to bog didn't find any gas, just another pair of digs and a treasure cruise with no graveyard and no way to hardcast them through the mana denial. I think the moral is, if you REALLY REALLY REALLY hate miracles and similar UWr decks, just play control lands.
Overall, just jamming game one's against these decks felt generally powerful. Lands is just about unwinnable, sneak and show feels like it would improve a ton in sideboard matchups. I like the fact that unlike miracles, this build has some serious inevitability and repeatable interaction via planeswalker abilities and academy ruins. In particular, Elspeth prevented opponents from riding just one threat, which was relevant. The mana base felt greedy at times, and I feel like a stifle metagame would devastate this mana base. It functioned well enough when the only disruption was wastelands out of D&T, but I shudder to think of what RUG delver (stock list pre-treasure cruise, nothing fancy no changes) would do to this list. Would probably cut a ponder for another basic plains and a counterspell for another verdict in a more midrange metagame with stifles.
Wow, after more testing, this is really powerful. Anyone playing stifle scares me though - the mana can be very fragile.
Thopter / Sword was awful. I'm not happy with SFM-> Batterskull but I've yet to find a better plan. I'll have to try just playing more walkers - that might be the answer.
When I was searching for "impossible to get rid of" win cons in a grindy Pfire brew I found Mogis, God of Slaughter and Shambling shell to be good/hilarious finishers. You have to sit there 6-10 turns, but if that's what you do with Jace anyway, it's pretty similar. That said, it was too weird of a deck to do more than about one tourney with.
Mogis is a nasty bitch in Commander. I bet it is not nearly as good in Legacy.
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Mogis is lol bad vs Young Pyromancer or elves or anything with more than a smattering of creatures. Not worth discussing really.
I really like the idea of just going with PW's not having any targets for STP or AD in a main deck is pretty saucy.
So are the three Jace.
#Much_lose #Very_burn
My vote is for Elspeth, Sun's Champion.
I mean have you seen her?
Got huge sword and a ass like Serena,
Trina, Jennifer Lopez, three tokens
and she can make all they bad asses flyers?
Ok she make some tokens then she make 'em some friends
Then you'll be rollin' in a Benz after all of your wins
Take your team to din and you'll be happy to pay
'cause if you fuckin' with Elspeth then you know you be paid
You know why? It take two bolts to touch her
From what I heard Abrupt Decay can't bust her
My best friend say not even Peezy can fluster her
I don't care what none of y'all say, I still love her
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
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