Daretti Goblin Welder (Da-Welder)

[Quizzlemanizzle]

I am not sure I want to run 4 Daretti..

Maybe 3/4 Dack and 2 Daretti and still go with the Dack combos with Notion Thief, Treasure Cruise, Jam Mox Diamond, Liquimetal, Welder.

I am not sure I can justify 4 Daretti's when I could play Jace in any deck. I also prefer to run more of the cheaper cards (Dack, Welder) than 4 of the expensive guy.

[bruizar]

Yeah but you need it for early Intuition's or Early Daretti. However, you are right - the 1st line of play in my post is not playable since you only produce 2CCC instead of the 1CCCC you need. I don't really have a solution for that yet - but I'll tinker around with that list for a while. Again the list is really just Welder-Control/Dack+Liquid/Thopter+Sword. Something about those elements makes sense for me, but i'm not entirely sure whether they can actually fit all together.

If you start running 4 x land 4 volcanic island 2 UR lands 4 darksteel citadel, 3 great furnace, 3 seat of the synod, 4 mox opal, you will be able to get your turn 2 Dack's reliably, but you also open yourself up for massive postboard hate. A mix of Mox Opal and Mox Diamond / Chrome Mox could also work.

[Cire]

Do you think TC would work in a deck that plays a lot of permanents, not that many fetch lands, and needs certain cards in the grave? As for Jace - yeah - I just want to make sure that lines of play I want work well before I guess I make it less goldfish consistent and add in FOW and maybe Jace to make it better for the real world. As for postboard hate to Dack, that I think would be fine, since the idea is that an opponent can't prepare for Dack/Liquid, Welder target AND thopter. I mean the opponent can - through counterspells, but IDK how to solve that outside boarding a punch of REB's - which we probably should do anyway if we're up against a blue deck.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Dack and Daretti both fill the graveyard with their +1 so Treasure Cruise makes sense.

Also when you play Dack, it makes sense to play Brainstorm, Ponder, Force of Will, Treasure Cruise, Pyroblast, Lightning Bolt

Deck space gets realllllly tight.

I would like to have Jace, Liquimetal Coating and even Baleful Strix and Notion Thief also. Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam are also cool.

And then you still need value for Daretti like Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, Mindslaver, Contagion Engine and so on.

PS: Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is pretty nice too.

Guess you could go Walkers+Mud and forget about the cantrips. Dack, Daretti, Jace and Tezz with some control and some artifacts.

[bruizar]

I'm hesitant on using treasure cruise myself. I think it's easier to just bank on Dualcaster Mage and copy your opponent's TC except the problem is that the deck wants to tap out.. As a matter of fact, I think even Fork or Twincast would be viable in legacy decks right now.

[Gheizen64]

I've just fallen in love with the garrison lands. You can play them and bounce ur traitor and you will be cursing your mana base so much less! I'm testing a 4 Traitors, 4 Tomb, 4 Garrison mana base, it's smoother, even if i miss the lifegain from the glimmerposts, i can run more colored lands. And yes, bouncing Cavern of souls has been relevant in some games, from artificer to human mostly.

About Wear//Tear i've never both sides together, but there's so many enchantments that ruin the deck so i'm still running it.

[bruizar]

I've just fallen in love with the garrison lands. You can play them and bounce ur traitor and you will be cursing your lands so much less! I'm testing a 4 Traitors, 4 Tomb, 4 Garrison mana base, it's smoother, even if i miss the lifegain from the glimmerposts, i can run more colored lands. And yes, bouncing Cavern of souls has been relevant in some games, from artificer to human mostly.

What about the lair cycle? You get an extra splash color and they don't come into play tapped, this should speed up your deck a bit. In your case Rith's Grove

[Gheizen64]

What about the lair cycle? You get an extra splash color and they don't come into play tapped, this should speed up your deck a bit. In your case Rith's Grove

It doesn't make you virtually draw a card. I'm liking the garrison a lot because a T1 Traitor into CotV, into T2 garrison it's a T3 4 mana with 2 land hand, with a development of 2-2-4 mana over 3 turns, with only 2 lands. That's like playing with a mox T1 and T3. That draw a card Kreygasm

Nahiri will be just perfect in my list when she's out. Double white is annoying but free batterskulls and recycling batterskull are too good.

[bruizar]

It doesn't make you virtually draw a card. I'm liking the garrison a lot because a T1 Traitor into CotV, into T2 garrison it's a T3 4 mana with 2 land hand. And in that case the Garrison has worked sorta like a 3-mana land because it has also negated the drawback of City of Traitors.

Nahiri will be just perfect in my list when she's out. Double white is annoying but free batterskulls and recycling batterskull are too good.

If you're too far in double white, you could test Stonehewer Giant over Godo, but I doubt that this will be good for you (Godo is more powerful, and you lose upside from garrison)

[apple713]

Good point. Lightning edited.

I like fauna shaman a lot because it solves the issue ive been running into when goldfishing; not being able to dump artifacts into grave. While i like her concept i think its probably too slow.

So the issue i am running into is that the focus of several of the decks posted seems to be aggro oriented. There does not apear to be enough creatures to consistently be getting them when you need them. Additionally, when you do get them you cant dump them in grave.

One of the reasons show and tell is viable with only 8 creatures is because ot has brainstorm ponder and top to dig for them. Relying on diretti to dig creates inconsistency.

Should the purpose be to cast the creatures and when they die just reanimate them? Or ahould the deck be focused on dumping artifacts in grave to abise the reanimate mechanic without intending to cast them?

The difference is huge because casting a 6 cmc wurmcoil is a lot harder than powering out a diretri at 4 mana. If the focus is reanimation you no longer need to include cards that get you to casting 6cmc spells.

Other considerations include strictly going with mindslaber as win con reduces susceptibility to drs

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Actually I don't think you can really play Dack and Daretti in the same deck effectively.

Daretti will only be good if you can force your opponent into a long grind game. So you need to play a lot of hate and control along with him plus his value combos.

The fact that Goblin Welder provided the same effect already for 1 but could not be broken also doesn't signal that Daretti will be broken. He is good and can take over a long game late if you get there.

Dack and Daretti both need completely different cards to abuse their abilities. Dack is a 2 card combo with Notion Thief/Liquimetal Coating but Daretti is a 3 card combo.

With Daretti you probably need to play all sol lands and moxes to get him out on turn 2 to start looting and hope to hit jackpot on turn 3. At that point Chalice of the Void is a must turn 1 play and that rules out Welder.

Mono-Red Daretti Mud seems decent..

[bruizar]

@Quizzlemanizzle:

All you need for Welder and Chalice to work together is some glue in the form of Cavern of Souls. Dack Fayden is indeed a different deck I think.

For some reason, I can't get this out of my head:

Turn 1: Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Thirst for Knowledge
Turn 2: Doretti, Weld

@apple713:
I think the stax approach is better than the aggro approach UNLESS you take Red MUD and add Daretti as a failsafe against counters and removal.

Tangle Wire lends itself towards the long game and I really like this with Daretti. Darkblast and Life from the Loam both solve the discard issue to a large extent.

Graveyard fillers:
Black splash: Darkblast
Green splash: Life from the loam, Fauna Shaman
Blue splash: Thirst for Knowledge, Strategic Planning, etc
Red: Gamble, Control of the Court, Gathan Raiders

[GenghisTom]

Some good brainstorming going on.
Come next Friday Ill be testing this out:

4 chalice
4 tangle wire

4 welder
4 daretti

3 dack
3 liqiumetal

3 thirst for knowledge
2 intuition
2 wurmcoil
1 battlesphere
1 mind slaver
1 contagion engine
1 filigree angel
1 Sundering Titan

3 grim monolith
3 mox opal
4 seat
4 great furnace
4 tomb
4 city
4 cavern


I like chalice more than Trinisphere. Cavern allows for welder, and since we now have daretti it's okay if you get into a situation where you cant cast welder because of chalice and no cavern. In which case you can just loot away the welder. And to be honest, if you have a chalice out @ 1, chances are it's hurting your opponent a lot more.
Not being able to play gamble really hurts, but I think Chalice > Trinisphere is worth it, and we have thirst for knowledge and intuition anyway.
Dack, Daretti, Thirst, and Intuition should give us enough discard outs for weld combo
Sol lands, mox and monolith should be enough to give us a work around gravehate by just hardcasting stuff.
Filigree angel gains 12+ life basically everytime which really hurts a lot of decks right now.
I might want to run an ensnaring bridge main... Not sure.
Still need to test it, I've been busy.

[apple713]

For the TLDR version jump to the point after i link the cards at the bottom.

Dack and Daretti both fill the graveyard with their +1 so Treasure Cruise makes sense.

Also when you play Dack, it makes sense to play Brainstorm, Ponder, Force of Will, Treasure Cruise, Pyroblast, Lightning Bolt

Deck space gets realllllly tight.

I would like to have Jace, Liquimetal Coating and even Baleful Strix and Notion Thief also. Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam are also cool.

And then you still need value for Daretti like Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, Mindslaver, Contagion Engine and so on.

PS: Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is pretty nice too.

Guess you could go Walkers+Mud and forget about the cantrips. Dack, Daretti, Jace and Tezz with some control and some artifacts.

you are trying to do too much with the deck and in doing so you will do nothing well. The deck needs to be focused.

What about the lair cycle? You get an extra splash color and they don't come into play tapped, this should speed up your deck a bit. In your case Rith's Grove

lair lands come into play tapped.... what are u talking about?

It doesn't make you virtually draw a card. I'm liking the garrison a lot because a T1 Traitor into CotV, into T2 garrison it's a T3 4 mana with 2 land hand, with a development of 2-2-4 mana over 3 turns, with only 2 lands. That's like playing with a mox T1 and T3. That draw a card Kreygasm

Nahiri will be just perfect in my list when she's out. Double white is annoying but free batterskulls and recycling batterskull are too good.

garrison also allows you to get BLOWN out by wasteland on garrison after dropping cot.

If you're too far in double white, you could test Stonehewer Giant over Godo, but I doubt that this will be good for you (Godo is more powerful, and you lose upside from garrison)

godo is probably better than adding white to justify anything. double any color sucks in a deck like this.

Actually I don't think you can really play Dack and Daretti in the same deck effectively.

Daretti will only be good if you can force your opponent into a long grind game. So you need to play a lot of hate and control along with him plus his value combos.

The fact that Goblin Welder provided the same effect already for 1 but could not be broken also doesn't signal that Daretti will be broken. He is good and can take over a long game late if you get there.

Dack and Daretti both need completely different cards to abuse their abilities. Dack is a 2 card combo with Notion Thief/Liquimetal Coating but Daretti is a 3 card combo.

you may not be able to play dack and daretti in the same deck but their abilities are complimentary. The only reason that welder and daretti are any good is if there are artifacts in your grave. dack provides a continuous way to do that. Whether or not he is the best card to fulfill that role is a different story. The fact is that you NEED that role to be filled, the question is how you are going to fill it?

@Quizzlemanizzle:

All you need for Welder and Chalice to work together is some glue in the form of Cavern of Souls. Dack Fayden is indeed a different deck I think.

For some reason, I can't get this out of my head:

Turn 1: Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox, Thirst for Knowledge
Turn 2: Doretti, Weld

@apple713:
I think the stax approach is better than the aggro approach UNLESS you take Red MUD and add Daretti as a failsafe against counters and removal.

Tangle Wire lends itself towards the long game and I really like this with Daretti. Darkblast and Life from the Loam both solve the discard issue to a large extent.

Graveyard fillers:
Black splash: Darkblast
Green splash: Life from the loam, Fauna Shaman
Blue splash: Thirst for Knowledge, Strategic Planning, etc
Red: Gamble, Control of the Court, Gathan Raiders

good point about dredging. thats an option. however dredging is slow. leading to a longer more grind game. filling your grave with artifacts is good but maybe we need to focus on which artifacts?



regarding control of the court and dredge, random is bad, most decks don't like random, this deck included. we don't want random because it serves a limited purpose. it is only beneficial if we want cards in the grave because we can't rely on it to search for something we want in our hand. if we want something to fill our grave there are better cards.

thirst for knowledge
strategic planning
intuition
transmute artifact
entomb

If we want aggro, the easy solution would be to adapt a version of dragon stompy / red mud and that should be discussed in their forums which they are already doing. So I'm going to try and identify what i think the focus should be. I think the deck should be focused on control / combo.

i like the idea of making this a "reanimator" deck, but instead of creatures maybe what we reanimate is artifacts that can win us the game or serve as a toolbox.

there are 2 best case scenarios for this deck or at least the deck I'm invisioning.

scenario 1
T1 land -> welder
T2 land -> loot, cast artifact -> weld something awesome into play

scenario 2
T1 sol land, mox -> Loot
T2 Land -> daretti -> reanimate

the issue to run into in scenario 1 is you have to protect welder via counterspells or other means, suggestions? Naturally since you are looting and blue is good at that it makes sense to use blue because it also protects.

Issue in scenario two is that you need that acceleration to drop daretti on t2. If you don't get him t2, its not the end of the world. but then things get more complicated with every turn. depending on how slow you expect your deck to play you need to provide the proper protections.

We then have to decide what to focus on
Comboing something out fast means we build for consistency and protection.
Playing more control means we need to slow the game down long enough to get the cards into place.

maybe we can accomplish both of those? IDK

are there any artifacts that we can rely on to seal a game? mindslaver is the only thing that comes to mind... but i know there has to be others. If we can't rely on an artifact to seal the game for us we are forced into the control route.

[GenghisTom]

are there any artifacts that we can rely on to seal a game?

Possessed Portal can pretty much shut down most decks, and if we get to Daretti's ultimate, sacrificing an artifact means nothing to us.
(at least that's what it looks like, Portal triggers at beginning of end step at which point you would sac an artifact, then that artifact would return to play at the beginning of the next end step which would be the end step of the next turn correct?)

[Jables237]

I was thinking about R/W to use SFM and the new Masterwork of ingenuity with Batterskull. Here is what I was tossing around:

Lands
2x ancient den
4x arid mesa
3x great furnace
2x mountain
3x plains
4x plateau
2x scalding tarn
2x flooded strand

Critters
4x batterskull
4x mother of runes
4x goblin welder
4x stoneforge mystic
4x Masterwork of Ingenuity

Removal
3x lightning bolt
4x swords to plowshares

Other
4x faithless looting
3x Daretti
4x tangle wire

SFM allows tutoring for a Bskull or a masterwork. Also another way of cheating it into play. Bolt and Swords are great removal spells. Mom can protect SFM and welder. I am not sure if the masterwork route is really worth going but seemed like a fun card to try and break.

[MoT_Pestilence]

Take from this what you will, but I've top 4'd my local weekly tournament every week for the past 2 months, plus 2 monthly's at another store with this W/r Stax list. I think Daretti would be a perfect fit in it as well. My current list is:

Lands: 24

3 wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
2 flagstones of Trokair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
1 plains
2 Plataeu
1 ancient den
1 great furnace

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
3 ensnaring bridge
4 armageddon
2 Bottled Cloister
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 enlightened tutor
2 Wurmcoil Engine


I think you could take out 1-2 of the Bottled Cloister and 1-2 of the Wurmcoil Engines to add 2-3 Daretti. Then add 2-3 more red sources and the deck would be perfect. I haven't tested it yet but the synergy between welder/daretti and smokestack cannot be ignored. The discard from his loot can be undone with Crucible and Welder and himself. You might not even need Wurmcoil Engines and just replace them with TangleWires. I think others that were saying he works best in a control list were correct. You want to grind advantage with him, and smokestack is the perfect way to do that. I'm going to be testing a list that looks something like this:

Lands: 24

3 wasteland
2 flagstones of Trokair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
1 plains
4 Plataeu
1 great furnace

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
3 ensnaring bridge
4 armageddon
1 Bottled Cloister
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 enlightened tutor
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

[Jables237]

Take from this what you will, but I've top 4'd my local weekly tournament every week for the past 2 months, plus 2 monthly's at another store with this W/r Stax list. I think Daretti would be a perfect fit in it as well. My current list is:

Lands: 24

3 wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
2 flagstones of Trokair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
1 plains
2 Plataeu
1 ancient den
1 great furnace

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
3 ensnaring bridge
4 armageddon
2 Bottled Cloister
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 enlightened tutor
2 Wurmcoil Engine


I think you could take out 1-2 of the Bottled Cloister and 1-2 of the Wurmcoil Engines to add 2-3 Daretti. Then add 2-3 more red sources and the deck would be perfect. I haven't tested it yet but the synergy between welder/daretti and smokestack cannot be ignored. The discard from his loot can be undone with Crucible and Welder and himself. You might not even need Wurmcoil Engines and just replace them with TangleWires. I think others that were saying he works best in a control list were correct. You want to grind advantage with him, and smokestack is the perfect way to do that. I'm going to be testing a list that looks something like this:

Lands: 24

3 wasteland
2 flagstones of Trokair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
1 plains
4 Plataeu
1 great furnace

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
3 ensnaring bridge
4 armageddon
1 Bottled Cloister
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 enlightened tutor
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

How exactly do you kill people?

[MoT_Pestilence]

How exactly do you kill people?

99% of the time they scoop to be honest. If you've never faced stax before that's where most of their wins come from. Other than that I've killed people with welder beats. You might need 1 wurmcoil or other artifact to end it, but to be honest it might not even be necessary. It hasn't been yet for me in my current build.

[apple713]

Possessed Portal can pretty much shut down most decks, and if we get to Daretti's ultimate, sacrificing an artifact means nothing to us.
(at least that's what it looks like, Portal triggers at beginning of end step at which point you would sac an artifact, then that artifact would return to play at the beginning of the next end step which would be the end step of the next turn correct?)

possessed portal requires a clear board so its not quite as amazing as i would have liked but maybe..... id really like something more solid if possible.

I was thinking about R/W to use SFM and the new Masterwork of ingenuity with Batterskull. Here is what I was tossing around:

Lands
2x ancient den
4x arid mesa
3x great furnace
2x mountain
3x plains
4x plateau
2x scalding tarn
2x flooded strand

Critters
4x batterskull
4x mother of runes
4x goblin welder
4x stoneforge mystic
4x Masterwork of Ingenuity

Removal
3x lightning bolt
4x swords to plowshares

Other
4x faithless looting
3x Daretti
4x tangle wire

SFM allows tutoring for a Bskull or a masterwork. Also another way of cheating it into play. Bolt and Swords are great removal spells. Mom can protect SFM and welder. I am not sure if the masterwork route is really worth going but seemed like a fun card to try and break.

this looks good actually. the curve is good, it allows for card advantage with SFM and recursion with the red cards. mom is a good card to protect with. tangle wire seems a little out of place but id be interested to know how it does. Have you done any testing?

Take from this what you will, but I've top 4'd my local weekly tournament every week for the past 2 months, plus 2 monthly's at another store with this W/r Stax list. I think Daretti would be a perfect fit in it as well. My current list is:

Lands: 24

3 wasteland
2 flagstones of Trokair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
1 karakas
1 plains
4 Plataeu
1 great furnace

Spells: 36
4 mox diamond
3 trinisphere
4 smokestack
4 goblin welder
3 ensnaring bridge
4 armageddon
1 Bottled Cloister
3 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 enlightened tutor
3 Daretti, Scrap Savant

I have played geddon stax for a few years and never really tried welder because i stopped playing the deck before cavern of souls came out. I'm all for this concept but I'm not sure it'll work. I feel like Etutor is awkward just because of COTV. Daretti may allow you get rid of e tutor for something like batter skull. Batter skull in my opinion is better than wurmcoil just because of mana cost and that they are so comparable. they serves similar purpose, blocking, life gain, 2 permanents for 1 card, plays well with welder.

Questions

was 0 tabernacle a conscious decision or do you not own any?
I always played with 4 ghostly prison, why are you only playing with 3 ensnaring bridges? they serve similar purposes?
How is e tutor working out for you in regards to cotv?
Now that cavern is available does it really help with welder or is it awkward?
possessed portal may be unnecessary but with all the lock going on and welder / daretti its a hard lock to a stalled board state in your favor. have you considered it?
with welder tangle wire has a reasonably good interaction, have you tried tangle wire?

Suggestions

-3 enlightened tutors
-1 armageddon
+2 batterskull
+1 ensnaring bridge
+1 bottled cloister.


I am looking forward to hearing back about this because I have beat plateau's i've been dying to use!