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Thread: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

  1. #661
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    very nice work, Lejay!

    1) Can you explain why 0 Ancient Tomb 1 trini?

    2) Don't you like Scavenging Ooze anymore? Why?

    3) no love for decay/trophy at all?


    But I like the list, Plague is good!
    Last edited by Alexeezay; 03-25-2019 at 05:42 AM.

  2. #662
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Back when I slowly turned from Baloth and Tombs towards knights and Coursers a few years ago I removed one Tomb after another. I think I still had one City of traitors for a Titania for some time and then I dropped both versions of the deck. I think both the Tomb/Baloth build and the Knight/Coursers build are legit but I preferred the knight version because of all the choices it offered. The other reason I moved towards it is because with Baloth you gain 4 life straight, but you lose those life very quickly when you run Ancient tombs anyway so something felt wrong. Baloth is more explosive and has more lopsided match-ups.
    So when I started testing the deck again a few weeks ago I started off the knight version (with 3 trinisphere at the beginning). Of course without sol lands Trini comes late and thus loses a bit of its power. Also I think combo isn't enough present to justify playing 3-4 trinispheres and if you aim at control decks Lingering Souls does a better job with a mana base like mine. Same for Delver. You also catch back most of what you lose versus combo by playing the second Teeg in the sideboard. Now Teeg is tutorable even if discarded or Abrupt Decayed. I also want to vary my hate as I definitely faced a lot of Hurkyl's recall and Echoing Truth versus them.
    Lingering Souls was in my mind for ages for the deck, I just couldn't find the cuts. I returned to magic with the spirit of challenging more things that seemed obvious and that went well.
    Basics also have a lot of value right now in the metagame so that's an additionnal point in favor of reducing the number of Ancient tombs (and thus Trinispheres).

    Ooze I think is too slow versus Grave decks which is what I would need the slot for the most. But feel free to retest it in the last version, it's not far from the deck in my mind.

    No love for Decay or trophy. I never liked Decay in the deck since the very beginning (or removals in general). If I can solve issues with threats or locks it's better. The only reason Decay has been played regularly in my lists is Delver. But with 3 coursers, 2 Plague, 2 maze, 3 Lingering Souls and 1 Pulse you definitely have enough to handle it now.
    Trophy has the important aspect of killing Jace, but it is in contradiction with the mana denial aspect of the deck (and can get countered by chalice at 2). Also the less removals you run the more likely you are to get double threat with Maelstrom Pulse.
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  3. #663
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    Koplinchen's Avatar
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    What a monumental work you have done here Lejay! I absolutely love it.

    I just have a few questions:

    1) With even Ghost Quarter it seems that one of the ways the deck wins is to destroy your opponents mana. Why not at least one more Excavator? If the first one gets killed dont we lose a lot of potential? 2 Exca 2 Courser perhaps? You never wanted even one Life from the Loam?

    2) Why no Tracker. A combo on its own, isnt it? Or is it too slow? Knight eats STP this one nets two cards...

    3) How do you win with Humility in play? Many decks have more creatures and we dont have pwalkers or other repeated advantage apart form Excavator or Plague.

    Thank you for coming with new things all the time and sharing it!

    Tomáš

  4. #664
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    1) I would not run Loam before another Excavator#2. At one point to help me identifying priorities I ran 89 cards and a second excavator. It does have value, but I don't thinking cutting all the opponent's lands should be more than one possible game plan among others. You primarily want to survive. Courser helps you with that when you face a flipped delver, a flickerwisp or a TNN. You also need to dig and gain life points to get full powered libraries. I don't think I have ever seen another deck that could play 4 libraries. You need coursers to justify the 4th. I could run 4 coursers.
    The other reason is that coursers have much more value for selection even without library online. What I tried to do with this deck is to find a way for a chalice deck to have some library manipulation. A fetch, a GSZ or a KotR are enough to shuffle away a bad top card you see with courser. If the card is good, you often delay a play with one of these shuffle effects. And since the deck is full of silver bullets, selection is particularly important.

    2) As I said above you first want to survive. My creatures have an immediate even if it is just blocking well like Knights (Dryad si different). I tested tracker instead of 4th library at one point and it didn't go well at all. I admit I probably didn't test it enough, but I think you want to maximize your odds to go in the late game. Expensively drawing cards and have a big threat later doesn't feel like you're on the right tempo nor the right priority. Test it instead of a courser but I am skeptical.

    3) I think this question would be valid if humility was in the main deck. I sb it in primarily vs sneak show, reanimator and eldrazi. Versus the first two decks this is not an issue and having a slower clock is well compensated by the effect of the card. Versus Eldrazi with 4 Plagues and 3 Lingering Souls I doubt you would lose a lot of games. You don't want to sb it in much more than that. I guess it would be sided in versus Merfolk but I don't see anything else right now.
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  5. #665

    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    I didn`t have many opportunities to play with paper cards recently, so when Russian legacy championship was announced to take place on 30th of March I immediately decided to participate with my beloved deck. I tested it in two smaller tournaments (20-30 players) and made top8 in both, so on Saturday I sleeved these cards:

    3 Ancient Tomb
    2 Bayou
    2 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    4 Wasteland
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Windswept Heath
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Karakas
    1 Maze of Ith
    2 Forest
    1 Swamp

    1 Dryad Arbor
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    1 Knight of Autumn
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    1 Tireless Tracker
    1 Ramunap Excavator
    2 Obstinate Baloth
    1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

    3 Abrupt Decay
    1 Assassin's Trophy
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Trinisphere
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    1 Toxic Deluge
    3 Sylvan Library

    Sideboard:
    1 Abrupt Decay
    3 Choke
    3 Leyline of the Void
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Engineered Plague
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Mistcutter Hydra
    1 Zuran Orb

    When I played two smaller tournaments, there were a lot of uw stoneblade and uw delver decks, also death and taxes and reanimator decks are popular here, so I was assured to play against these decks on championship.
    In fact, I finished on a disappointing 13th place (of 82 players), my pairings were:
    1 round Death and Taxes 2-1, 1-0
    2 round Monored Stompy 1-2, 1-1
    3 round Burn 2-1, 2-1
    4 round Elves 2-1, 3-1
    5 round Monored Stompy 0-2, 3-2
    6 round Monored Stompy 2-0, 4-2
    7 round UB Delver with Death Shadow, 2-1, 5-2

    I managed to lost 2 somewhat ok matchups and even though I dodged bad matchups like OmniShow (which were everywhere around) I missed top8.
    Top8 decks were: 2 UR Pteramander Delvers, MUD, Death and Taxes, Lands, Grixis Control, UB Shadow, and my friend won the title with Eldrazi deck.

  6. #666

    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by ipvitk View Post
    I didn`t have many opportunities to play with paper cards recently, so when Russian legacy championship was announced to take place on 30th of March I immediately decided to participate with my beloved deck. I tested it in two smaller tournaments (20-30 players) and made top8 in both, so on Saturday I sleeved these cards:

    3 Ancient Tomb
    2 Bayou
    2 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    4 Wasteland
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Windswept Heath
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Karakas
    1 Maze of Ith
    2 Forest
    1 Swamp

    1 Dryad Arbor
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    1 Knight of Autumn
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    1 Tireless Tracker
    1 Ramunap Excavator
    2 Obstinate Baloth
    1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

    3 Abrupt Decay
    1 Assassin's Trophy
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Trinisphere
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    1 Toxic Deluge
    3 Sylvan Library

    Sideboard:
    1 Abrupt Decay
    3 Choke
    3 Leyline of the Void
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Engineered Plague
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Mistcutter Hydra
    1 Zuran Orb

    When I played two smaller tournaments, there were a lot of uw stoneblade and uw delver decks, also death and taxes and reanimator decks are popular here, so I was assured to play against these decks on championship.
    In fact, I finished on a disappointing 13th place (of 82 players), my pairings were:
    1 round Death and Taxes 2-1, 1-0
    2 round Monored Stompy 1-2, 1-1
    3 round Burn 2-1, 2-1
    4 round Elves 2-1, 3-1
    5 round Monored Stompy 0-2, 3-2
    6 round Monored Stompy 2-0, 4-2
    7 round UB Delver with Death Shadow, 2-1, 5-2

    I managed to lost 2 somewhat ok matchups and even though I dodged bad matchups like OmniShow (which were everywhere around) I missed top8.
    Top8 decks were: 2 UR Pteramander Delvers, MUD, Death and Taxes, Lands, Grixis Control, UB Shadow, and my friend won the title with Eldrazi deck.
    How did the tracker work out for you? I tested it out in a similar list and found at times it was good, but others I found it just sat in my hand because I would rather value off knight or another card. I think is has potential in a list like this, but may be better with loam to really go all in on the lands plan. I am currently working on a tracker/depths/plug list. I'll post the list once I test is at my LGS this week.

  7. #667

    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Hey, so I've been playing this deck on MTGO a lot and doing fairly decently with it and having a lot of fun. I have a few quick questions for Lejay and/or anyone else who wants to add their input (note that my questions mostly pertain to the most recent list published on MTGGoldfish, on 3/30):

    1. Why Maelstrom Pulse over Vindicate? I replaced Maelstrom Pulse with Vindicate and I have found Vindicate to be quite a bit better. It can help you establish a lock, can disrupt Lands/Depths decks, or just do basically anything that Maelstrom Pulse can do (aside from the obvious strengths of pulse in killing tokens and what not, which doesn't seem to be too relevant in the current meta). Having versatile removal that doubles as a stone rain feels better to me, though I'm sure it has been considered and I'm curious why Maelstrom Pulse has become the card of choice for the deck. Also, Abrupt Decay has been cut from many current iterations though it is in nearly all older lists -- is it much worse than pulse? And is Assassin's Trophy a consideration here?

    2. 4 Sylvan Library feels like one too many. I realize many iterations of the deck have run 3, but the most recent one runs 4. I so often draw multiples and of course I can typically shuffle them away with a fetch, but there have been situations where I just need to find live cards and sometimes it feels like there are too many dead late game cards (library, chalice, trinisphere, and mox diamond, namely).

    3. Has there been thought given to potentially adding in a dark depths package to the deck? I generally don't have too much trouble turning the corner, but I feel like it wouldn't disrupt the deck's plan all that much if you ran singleton copies of Depths, Stage, and maybe an Urborg. There have often been times where I have an active KotR and could very easily win just by assembling the combo. Stage also has utility in being able to copy Maze, Wasteland, and what not.

    4. Has there been a consensus on whether or not it's worth running one or two top-end creatures like Meren, Titania, or Sigarda? As I said, I generally don't find it that hard to close out games, but something like Titania might be worth running as a one-of especially since we run a full set of GSZ. I know it has been tested, but the recent lists have generally cut her and I'm curious as to why.

    5. Has anyone tested a blue splash for Leovold? It feels like it would be well worth it given that you can very easily GSZ him out, and you would probably just have to add in a single Tropical Island to support one copy of him (which is probably all you want anyway).

    Anyway, those are all the questions I can think of right now. Overall, I've so far really loved playing the deck in its current iteration and will be playing it next weekend at the GP as it feels very well-positioned in the meta given the current prevalence of stoneblade and delver (I also might add that, in contrast to some comments on this thread, I find the deck to have totally winnable matchups against BR Reanimator/Dredge. I'm actually currently 5-1 against BR, though I think I have drawn pretty well against it, with many turn 1 chalices or turn 2 trinispheres).

  8. #668
    nidubuild
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    1) Vindicate appealed more than Pulse to me when I was only considering the effect of the cards. But since the mana base is so much based on forests it seemed too risky to add this mana denial effect. The mana denial part is more incidental now (more incidental, but not incidental). I once again tried to build a decklist with two vindicates when I started to work again on the deck and it was inferior. A lot of things can go wrong when mana denial is a big part of your plan, and it also put some weight on the mana base.
    Pulse is also problematic in mirror likes, but when you run so little removals catching double or triple threat isn't unlikely (I once caught 4x Strix with it).
    I already answered on decay and trophy
    No love for Decay or trophy. I never liked Decay in the deck since the very beginning (or removals in general). If I can solve issues with threats or locks it's better. The only reason Decay has been played regularly in my lists is Delver. But with 3 coursers, 2 Plague, 2 maze, 3 Lingering Souls and 1 Pulse you definitely have enough to handle it now.
    Trophy has the important aspect of killing Jace, but it is in contradiction with the mana denial aspect of the deck (and can get countered by chalice at 2). Also the less removals you run the more likely you are to get double threat with Maelstrom Pulse.
    2) Run 4. People always bring up this so I eventually listen to them and think "I'll try 3 again" and it's worse. One thing that may explain your bad experience is if you changed too many slots from what I came up with through testing. There is a reason I ended up having singleton prison elements (except plague) main deck. Also if you start cutting courser to test things like siege rhino you will end up having less valuable Sylvan Libraries.
    That said if you think another arrangement with 3 sylvan and other cards is better for good reason go ahead. But you have to think about the whole deck, not just cutting the 4th library for a Tireless Tracker or whatever. You can check decklists from yoan42 on mtggoldfish for inspiration

    3) this one also comes regularly. I tried to run the combo a bit, but probably not enough to completely forget the idea. My feeling was that with two Knight activations I am in a game I am very likely to win, so it wasn't good enough to compensate drawing burden cards regularly. And the testing confirmed what I thought.
    Try it just to be sure. I would even recommend it to bad players making bad choices regularly so they can profit from a simple plan with raw power.

    4) your late game is excellent without them. You want to prioritize survival and go into the late game. Titania was ok in lists with ancient tomb but without them it will too often be a burden. And I am not ready to run a sol land just for it. I also tested Meren and didn't like it (costly, has to survive, legendary, doesn't work against swords, doesnt block too well for its cost). Same for Volrath's Stronghold before (swords to plowshares / Terminus, slow and a bad land)

    5) leovold has been considered and is testable. I didn't like that it would weaken the mana base but it's something that can be tried. One way to look at him is that you already handle well cantrips with chalice and trini. The fact it doesn't diversify the mana curve is also an issue.

    Yes, you have been lucky versus reanimator. But the match-up is just unfavourable, not horrible. If you have to look for very bad match-ups you won't find them, so I name reanimator and sneak even if they're acceptable unfavourable.

    I currentlly play with one of the Gaddock Teegs main instead of Spyglass and the sb slot became a pithing needle. It's not 100% set in stone but I think you gain more this way than the previous 75.
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  9. #669

    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Regarding 4 Libraries...Someone take up the ball and test out a list using Words of War as removal? I've always wanted to try out a green stompy list running 4 Library and a Words mechanism, makes extra Libraries into something potentially useful.

  10. #670

    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    1) Vindicate appealed more than Pulse to me when I was only considering the effect of the cards. But since the mana base is so much based on forests it seemed too risky to add this mana denial effect. The mana denial part is more incidental now (more incidental, but not incidental). I once again tried to build a decklist with two vindicates when I started to work again on the deck and it was inferior. A lot of things can go wrong when mana denial is a big part of your plan, and it also put some weight on the mana base.
    Pulse is also problematic in mirror likes, but when you run so little removals catching double or triple threat isn't unlikely (I once caught 4x Strix with it).
    I already answered on decay and trophy

    2) Run 4. People always bring up this so I eventually listen to them and think "I'll try 3 again" and it's worse. One thing that may explain your bad experience is if you changed too many slots from what I came up with through testing. There is a reason I ended up having singleton prison elements (except plague) main deck. Also if you start cutting courser to test things like siege rhino you will end up having less valuable Sylvan Libraries.
    That said if you think another arrangement with 3 sylvan and other cards is better for good reason go ahead. But you have to think about the whole deck, not just cutting the 4th library for a Tireless Tracker or whatever. You can check decklists from yoan42 on mtggoldfish for inspiration

    3) this one also comes regularly. I tried to run the combo a bit, but probably not enough to completely forget the idea. My feeling was that with two Knight activations I am in a game I am very likely to win, so it wasn't good enough to compensate drawing burden cards regularly. And the testing confirmed what I thought.
    Try it just to be sure. I would even recommend it to bad players making bad choices regularly so they can profit from a simple plan with raw power.

    4) your late game is excellent without them. You want to prioritize survival and go into the late game. Titania was ok in lists with ancient tomb but without them it will too often be a burden. And I am not ready to run a sol land just for it. I also tested Meren and didn't like it (costly, has to survive, legendary, doesn't work against swords, doesnt block too well for its cost). Same for Volrath's Stronghold before (swords to plowshares / Terminus, slow and a bad land)

    5) leovold has been considered and is testable. I didn't like that it would weaken the mana base but it's something that can be tried. One way to look at him is that you already handle well cantrips with chalice and trini. The fact it doesn't diversify the mana curve is also an issue.

    Yes, you have been lucky versus reanimator. But the match-up is just unfavourable, not horrible. If you have to look for very bad match-ups you won't find them, so I name reanimator and sneak even if they're acceptable unfavourable.

    I currentlly play with one of the Gaddock Teegs main instead of Spyglass and the sb slot became a pithing needle. It's not 100% set in stone but I think you gain more this way than the previous 75.

    1. Ok that makes sense. The effect definitely does seem better, but mana concerns are understandable.

    2. Yeah, I tested siege rhino for a while and you are definitely right that it isn't the correct card for the deck at the moment. I never cut coursers for it, though; honestly, Courser has probably been the best card in the deck for me, in large part because of how powerful its interaction with library is.

    3. Fair enough. I might test it out, though, because while having activated KotR twice more than likely does mean you're ahead, it is also quite possible to lose from that position. The concern of dead cards makes sense, though.

    4. I tested out Titania in a few runs and wasn't overly impressed, though she can be quite a issue for certain decks since she almost always at least leaves a 5/3 behind. I do agree that it's probably not correct to run her without tomb/city, though.

    5. I'll test him out. Not sure the deck needs him, he just is one of the most powerful creatures in the format and the deck wouldn't have to sacrifice all that much to play him. It could easily be wrong, though.

    Sneak/Omni has been pretty unfavorable with the current list I'm running with only one trinisphere, but I actually felt like OmniSneak/OmniTell was a pretty good matchup when I was running a full set. Also, what are your thoughts on the Lands and Death & Taxes matchups? These have been the only other matchups that feel unfavorable/iffy. Currently 1-3 against Lands and 0-1 versus D&T. D&T seems really tough, though, because of Palace Jailer, which this deck has an incredibly tough time dealing with. One more thought: is Sejiri Steppe worth testing in the deck as a 1-of? Very good fetch target for KotR and just seems like an interesting potential card. I've been super impressed with the 1-of Bojuka Bog (seriously has won me so many games) and I feel like Steppe could potentially be alike in this way.


    Also, @square_two: that's a really interesting idea! That could end up being sweet. If you wanted to really go all-in on a red splash, you could even try playing Grove + Punishing Fire and maybe a Huntmaster/BBE or something. Might be bad, though, since it makes you more vulnerable to wasteland/B2B effects.

  11. #671
    nidubuild
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Death and Taxes and Lands are both pretty favourable match-ups.
    If you have problems with Palace Jailer you probably need to anticipate the card more. Or avoid cutting Lingering Souls to test Siege Rhino etc... Monarch was among the reasons I finally decided to add the Lingering Souls.
    Seijiri Steppe has tempted me but it will not work most of the time versus a decent opponent who waits until you activate knight to kill it. I also don't want to run too many bad lands.

    Words of War does very little by itself, you'd play it in a deck more dedicated to it.
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  12. #672

    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by bomberman32 View Post
    How did the tracker work out for you? I tested it out in a similar list and found at times it was good, but others I found it just sat in my hand because I would rather value off knight or another card. I think is has potential in a list like this, but may be better with loam to really go all in on the lands plan. I am currently working on a tracker/depths/plug list. I'll post the list once I test is at my LGS this week.
    Quite liked it, I agree KotR is better, but you can't play 5th Knight :) It was like flexible slot, I tested various creatures like second Courser, Sigarda, played two Thalias, Heretic Cathar etc.

  13. #673

    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    When Lejay invented the deck i brought it to a big italian tournament back in the Cruise meta, finishing 7-2 losing 2 times from Reanimator (or 6-1-2, can't remember, anyway out of t8): in the months after the tournament i tested other splash, even a Naya version: P.Fire seems good but when we were playing 4 trinisphere it's too much a non-bo. Now it could probably be better.

    @Lejay: How has Towe of Magistrate been for you, talking about colorless land? My doubt is if it's better than other options like Yavimaya Hollow or Stronghold. Moreover, the new Blast Zone land seems really good in that spot

  14. #674
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    When designed, the first splash tested was red. I switched to Rolling Spoil / toxic deluge / Engineered Plague because it's important not to loose to TNN. It wouldn't be wise to count only on life gain or magnetic mountain to cope with it and I don't see red being great for sb cards.
    I don't think P.Fire will be better than E.Plague.

    Tower has been really good. The only thing you could reproach to the card is that it's a bit redundant with 2nd Maze.
    Stronghold and Yav Hollow were both tested and not useful enough. Mainly because it doesn't help versus stp decks.
    The new land would rather replace 2nd Maze. The card was important for flyers, but now that I play 3 L.Souls main deck it's less needed.
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  15. #675
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    I hope Shifting Ceratops finds a nice, cozy home.

    Maybe better than Obstinate Baloth? Time will tell.

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