I found the same problems as you lejay when testing 4 rhinos/4 vindicates. The mana base was just too inconsistent, and Tomb felt incredibly awkward most of the time. I was also surprised how much I missed baloth. Still rhino was a great GSZ target, Vindicate was versatile, and I really wanted KotR for grabbing Karakas. Going to keep testing the small white splash with 2 savannah, 1 rhino/ 3 baloth split, 1 knight, and 2 vindicate in place of Spoil. Running 3 DRS to make sure I can access white, but mostly because it's been pretty great for me. Also if anyone was curious about Doran I found him pretty lackluster, and almost always preferred to grab Courser.
Creature 12
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Siege Rhino
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Kalonian Hydra
Other 25
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Choke
4 Trinisphere
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate
Land 23
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kichen Finks
1 Spike Weaver
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Rest in Peace
2 Massacre
2 Rolling Spoil
2 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas
Last edited by GalaxyMonarch; 11-12-2014 at 04:52 PM.
Wasteland obviously has great synergy with trinisphere. However when I finally forced into getting wasteland#3 and #4 into the deck I found out that it's just the inherent power of wasteland or double wasteland in the opening that was so good. It was weird because I didn't remember that being as important from my shardless days (had 4). Maybe I kind of forgot how good it was, maybe the prison elements make it better, but since two friends of mine and some posts on this forum seem to have the same feeling I have another explanation. I think there are a lot of people not used to playing legacy that test for the GP and build and keep hands without worrying enough about wasteland. And that card punishes them hard for it. It is probably a sum of things anyway.Originally Posted by bruizar
I feel the comparision with MUD is out of place. MUD has expensive spells and every land except possibly darksteel citadel is wastable. My deck has quite cheaper spells and tons of basics or ways to search for them + a versatile card that can either be business or ramp (GSZ). You also don't have to activate wasteland when you have it. In the two colors shell at least wasteland is good enough for mana.
In general if I have a hole in my curve with no 1-2 mana spells or see weakness from my opponent I'll use wasteland soon. But most of the time I play prison elements and only after that start wastelanding.
Rishadan port has been suggested at some point. I couldn't test it because of the price online but often asked myself if it would be better than wasteland after the suggestion has been made. I think it is inferior to wasteland's raw power from my observations. It might deserve better attention in the future though.
I sideboard out tombs versus burn and UR. It's worth considering those might be the most played decks at the GP (burn mainly due to not everyone having a legacy deck prior the GP) and that burn beats UR. That adds to making this deck very well positioned and having a plan to replace tombs important.
I didn't play witness because in addition to the usual lack of room, the deck didn't have enough utility for it to be excellent. I played it a few years ago in a bant GSZ deck and getting back either a stp, a wasteland, a brainstorm, a threat or a counter was awesome. Here there wasn't even enough wastelands to get back. Now that we have four the card is a bit better but taking more care of lands with 6 land destruction effects + titania seems more than enough.
It's probably testable but since it is slow with overall utility limited to small threats, lock pieces (that work well early) and decays, I don't think it will make the cut.
I considered Stampeding Wildebeests but yes the card can easily backfire. I didn't test so feel free to try but I think you have better things in the deck already.
I would have appreciated justification on the non white changes you made since you started from my decklist. But I'll be the one asking questions/making some remarks. Playing 4 tombs (with no signet !) and no decent sb plan to replace them in this meta is asking for trouble. Titania is probably still the better slot even with just 3 wastelands. Against UR N°1 danger is delver so I don't think kitchen finks makes the sb slot. Thrun versus solifuge has already been explained even if I think Thrun in addition to solifuge can be justified. Rips are nice but not really faster than the lock pieces that make the job versus reanimator, ichorid and even storm, so playing faerie macabre helps for when you are slower than them.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
As far as the Gb build is concerned, I question the inclusion of Rolling Spoil as LD spell as choice.
On the one hand, killing a few X/1 has come up once against D&T so far, but other than that, it was just an overcosted Ice Storm. On the other, I wish it had been Bramblecrush multiple times so far to kill of the enemy Batterskull or Jace, which seem both to be rather problematic cards for this deck, at least pre-board. But to be fair, I haven't faced a UR Delver deck in testing yet. But as a sweeper, it seems rather slow and heavy-handed, despite its dual-functionality.
For the white splash, I'm going to settle with -1 Forest +1 Savannah, -1 Baloth +1 Rhino for now. That opens up a SB slot and gives me reach in form of Rhino, which drains them and tramples over chumpblockers. Still looking for the slot to test a single KotR.
UR is not just the most played deck. It is also well represented in the top tables. This week-end near Paris there was a 61 players tournament. Only 5-6 UR but 5 of them in the top8.
Another thing you may not have faced is true-name nemesis which is hard to deal with main board. So I would keep rolling spoil at the moment. However with one siege rhino in your list I can see a split of 1 bramblecrush 1 rolling spoil for you.
I am currently updating the OP post with some sideboard tables for common match-ups.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Yeah I'm pretty new to legacy, was recently a modern player, should have clarified that. Wasn't trying to give bad advice or anything just agreeing that 4 rhino felt bad when I tried it. I'll try to stick to something closer to your list until I understand the format better. I probably let the brewer in me come out a little too much lol. Again sorry if I was coming off as trying to give advice or that my list was having good results.
I like how pros tell in various article to mostly metagame for the mirror.But it's even better than that now
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...cy-and-modern/
Advice is no daze 3 force main. If pros/people listen to that point of view the path will be even more wide opened for this deck, and I would really don't care about that 3rd smash to smithereens.
I updated the OP with some rules you should know playing the deck.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Nice feature on SCG today LeJay!
Although, Gerry's snide comment about how "Rolling Spoil might be going a little too deep" was somewhat unneeded.
How as Titania been treating you over Kalonian Hydra?
Link for the lazy: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...You-Choke.html
Funny how things turn out. I was just about to make a post in the Mono Green Chalice Aggro Deck Thread because of two new cards Titania and Song of the Dryads when I skipped to browsing over what's new first. I have been playing Mono Green Chalice way back and was thinking that the new cards might help. I had a feeling that the deck in the current U painted metagame of TC could be a viable choice again. However I directly realized D&T and especially Elves would be a pain. While I was thinking that and skipping over a few new threads I saw this one and I am blown off my feet. Adding B is daring but if it works (which seems to be the case) addresses the D&T and Elves problem well. I just browsed through the answers for now ... but it will kill my beloved Miracles ... anyhow loosing NO is probably right but ...
I was wondering why Garruk has been dropped as well?
/EDIT/ Found 3 Roiling Spoils among my 10K green crap spells after 15 minutes of digging =) /EDIT/
Last edited by Nekrataal; 11-13-2014 at 04:19 PM.
Since I run 1 Savannah main, I have used the freed up SB slot for a second Karakas. Works nice for me so far.
One of the more funky interactions I just noticed in testing is that you can bounce Titania to recur more lands if necessary. Not exactly mana-effective, but nice value if you don't have to fear counterspells since you get more 5/3s in the process.
During prague eternal I've been playing 2 Engineered Plagues main instead of Rolling Spoil.
I've found it very very good.
Still probably more powerful than hydra and I still run the combo in the sideboard to help versus elves and creature match-ups based on the combat phase. In those I am happy to side in more creatures and a combo that dominates combat is a very sweet plan.
Green walkers don't bring much as they are non creature threats but still produce creatures, so that doesn't solve most problems you generally want walkers for. There is also a lack of room, as you can notice there aren't tha many creatures in the deck that is a GSZ deck. I don't want to go below what I have now.
That's probably another demonstration of why rolling spoil is so good in the deck. If that is a suggestion to replace RS though, I'd rather answer immediatly multiple creature types than futures extra copies (so let's say deluge first), and the land destruction part is awesome in this deck.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I'm testing one KotR in the MD as GSZ target now by moving one 3sphere to the board. Only got him into play once so far, but when I did, he was a workhorse because
a) he kept the opposing Tarmogoyf at bay
b) kept him at minimal mana to prevent him from doing anything fancy under Trinisphere and
c) shuffled the junk away with Library.
I'll keep testing KotR.
I tested the deck and I removed obstinate baloth for a stone forge mystic, batter skull, and umezawa's jitte package. I'm liking this more as well as the slots freed up from relying on green sun zenith.
SFM is strong and all, but I can't see it fit into the current iteration of the build.
What I like in Baloth is that it's easy to cast and has an immediate impact on the board+life total. The resistance to discard is nice but it's more of a bonus.
Sfm does neither impact the board to block early agression nor helps having a good mana base since it forces you to run 3 colors with tombs and wastelands. There is no point in playing sfm turn 2 to have it bolted. You just play your prison elements first 90% of the time so a 4 mana creature is completely fine.
Also GSZ is awesome in this deck as always, but specifically it fills your one mana curve without being hit by chalice and without being a weak draw late game. Therefore running away from an optmized GSZ package is a big mistake imo.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Unless I missed it in the primer or in the preceding pages but isn't chalice and drs something of a nonbo, the deck is sweet but I feel like I'm missing something
Nice to see the old school players still brewing away! Great construction Lejay, well done!
Would be nice to see a skilled player be able to pick it up and play it at the GP.
Yeah, you missed it. It's there. I'll save Lejay the hassle:
"Running them alongside chalices will probably the most controversial and debated choice in this deck. What if you draw them with a chalice at one on the table ? Well first drawing a mox or an elvish spirit guide won’t do a lot either in general. And second with the chalice in play you should be in a great shape. Being able to play your key lock elements daze proof or one turn earlier without losing cards is a great thing. Even when your opponent kills your turn one deathrite shaman with a bolt before you play turn two chalice you should be happy to screw his turn one or two by forcing his play. If you didn’t play shaman maybe he would have a delver in play or maybe the cantrip he would have played would have granted him some free countermagic for chalice. For people still planning on testing with turn 0 accels my last configuration before shamans was 2 chrome mox, 2 ESG, 2 gemstone caverns. That split limits the disadvantages of each and caverns are nice to have with courser. I maintain that running a few deathrites is the best choice though."
I watched your replays from this past evening's Legacy Daily and Titania looked so fun to resolve. Return Wasteland... waste... get a creature. good luck Miracles guy
I definitely am glad to see you on 4 Wasteland
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