Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

[Michael Keller]

There really is no reason to have more than 60. Anything over 60 is why you have a sideboard... for cards not important enough to justify a main deck slot. The main deck should be good vs the majority of the decks in your given meta. There will always be a card that is weaker than others against the majority of decks and making that determination is difficult sometimes but ultimately should be done. At what point do you draw the line for including toolbox cards main board?

also, what is really preventing you from running the taiga main? are you concerned about Price of progress, or Blood moon, or something else? Moon decks are on the decline currently and S&T is one of the few decks that brings it in from the board which just makes a bad match only slightly worse. As for price of progress, the basic land count has dwindled to 3 from the original 5. Have you seen such a significant effect that you cannot include the taiga main?

Agreed. You definitely don't want to go anything beyond sixty cards. Opening with a Chalice or Trinisphere is paramount to the strategy of this deck, and that only decreases your chances of doing so. Especially in a deck with no real active draw beyond Sylvan Library.

[Barook]

What exactly do you want to hit with Pyroclasm that you can't hit with Golgari Charm, Lejay? Flipped Delvers?

Edit: I also wonder how Tabernacle and Maze of Ith could work in the sideboard in a more Knight-heavy version.

[Memories of the Time]

Really like MD.Ghost's list, quite similar to mine. Really can't play Baloth btw, but agree with Karakas, Canopy and MD deluge

[Barook]

First rough draw of the Knight build:

2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Karakas
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Mox Diamond

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Rolling Spoil
4 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam

3 Choke
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Spike Weaver
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Thrun
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Massacre
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Toxic Deluge

[Michael Keller]

So, I was thinking about this the other day. In what capacity is Toxic Deluge better than Nausea in a deck that runs Ancient Tomb and fetches? I mean, what creatures does this deck really care about that have toughness greater than one? Young Pyromancer, Elemental tokens, most of Death and Taxes, Elves and True-Name Nemesis all eat it to Nausea. So do Empty tokens. It doesn't require a heavy life investment and costs one less. The deck does have ways of gaining life, but that investment should be put towards drawing cards with Library whenever possible and making Lightning Bolt and other burn spells less of a threat.

It just seems like the only creatures you really care about are the ones that can flood the board, and they generally have toughness of one. In that instance, Nausea seems superior. It can also kill an unflipped Delver faster without needing to hinge on Ancient Tomb.

[Lejay]

There really is no reason to have more than 60. Anything over 60 is why you have a sideboard... for cards not important enough to justify a main deck slot. The main deck should be good vs the majority of the decks in your given meta. There will always be a card that is weaker than others against the majority of decks and making that determination is difficult sometimes but ultimately should be done. At what point do you draw the line for including toolbox cards main board?

also, what is really preventing you from running the taiga main? are you concerned about Price of progress, or Blood moon, or something else? Moon decks are on the decline currently and S&T is one of the few decks that brings it in from the board which just makes a bad match only slightly worse. As for price of progress, the basic land count has dwindled to 3 from the original 5. Have you seen such a significant effect that you cannot include the taiga main?

4th wasteland and 4th trinisphere aren't really clear sideboard cards, which is why I want to try them in the main deck and play everything I need to have in the sideboard.
Nobody talks about running the sb toolbox cards in the main. If you said that because I mentionned a GSZ deck could possibly run more than 60 cards, then think rather about things like dryad arbor or how qasali is weak in some number of match-ups.

About Taïga main :

I would do the same thing about taiga main if I would insert a second karakas in the sideboard. But I still want three lands in the sideboard and it's nice that one of them produces green mana (against control you side out MOXx2 and dryad generally). I could change my opinion in the future about keeping 3 lands in sideboard as the land density main deck rose slightly, but that is not very likely.

This is like the third time you ask questions that have already been answered. I am patient but I have to underline that and ask you to read more carefully less threads rather than participating in so many different threads and reading them too quickly.
That said I realized how mox diamonds couldn't be considered a real mana source that could be replaced by lands (even utility lands) against control decks. So I will try other configurations, possibly 61 cards with 3 trini 4 wasteland and 2 lands sideboard. That way the land to spells ratio will still be good enough when you side out ancient tombs despite having just 2 lands sb.
About basic lands I never went below 4 basics and feel it's the minimum to protect from PoP (would probably be one more without mox diamonds). I didn't play against burn deck in a while though so I can't confirm old data with recent data.

Agreed. You definitely don't want to go anything beyond sixty cards. Opening with a Chalice or Trinisphere is paramount to the strategy of this deck, and that only decreases your chances of doing so. Especially in a deck with no real active draw beyond Sylvan Library.

I had this reasoning also, but you should have noticed that the previous decklist had only 3 trinispheres with the 4th in the sideboard. So adding a trinisphere and a land actually increased the likelyhood of opening on castable prison elements, at least preboard. That gave me incentives to try playing 62 cards for pyroclasms.

What exactly do you want to hit with Pyroclasm that you can't hit with Golgari Charm, Lejay? Flipped Delvers?
Edit: I also wonder how Tabernacle and Maze of Ith could work in the sideboard in a more Knight-heavy version.

Mainly yes. UR and elves are the two decks I have the most in mind and there are other X/2s in them, and also sfm and a bunch of other less likely creatures (mirran crusader, meddling, tribal decks...). In short since I have enough slots in my opinion to handle TNN, I prefer two damage to -1/-1 effects.
Not sure about lands, even though being based on mazes will be obvious with 4 mox diamonds, and at least one maze is almost mandatory if you run several knights.

So, I was thinking about this the other day. In what capacity is Toxic Deluge better than Nausea in a deck that runs Ancient Tomb and fetches? I mean, what creatures does this deck really care about that have toughness greater than one? Young Pyromancer, Elemental tokens, most of Death and Taxes, Elves and True-Name Nemesis all eat it to Nausea. So do Empty tokens. It doesn't require a heavy life investment and costs one less. The deck does have ways of gaining life, but that investment should be put towards drawing cards with Library whenever possible and making Lightning Bolt and other burn spells less of a threat.

It just seems like the only creatures you really care about are the ones that can flood the board, and they generally have toughness of one. In that instance, Nausea seems superior. It can also kill an unflipped Delver faster without needing to hinge on Ancient Tomb.

Deluge is a deluge in my deck because I like having a slot that can deal with some otherwise difficult things to handle like serra avenger, wilt-leaf liege, progenitus, or a board of merfolk lords. It also kills more things against UR and elves.
For a -1/-1 effect nausea's casting cost is interesting but I probably would still try golgari charm first.

[Michael Keller]

It just seems like the deck overpowers opponents with its threat base. The only cards that really bog it down are tokens and Nemesis. I play Natural Order so it doesn't matter more to me because I choose to play more combo-control.

Golgari Charm can just be awkward in the deck with Ancient Tomb. The way the deck is constructed, getting that end-of-turn Arbor and going for the early Order as early as turn two is key, so I guess it matters how you want to construct your deck.

[apple713]

So, I was thinking about this the other day. In what capacity is Toxic Deluge better than Nausea in a deck that runs Ancient Tomb and fetches? I mean, what creatures does this deck really care about that have toughness greater than one? Young Pyromancer, Elemental tokens, most of Death and Taxes, Elves and True-Name Nemesis all eat it to Nausea. So do Empty tokens. It doesn't require a heavy life investment and costs one less. The deck does have ways of gaining life, but that investment should be put towards drawing cards with Library whenever possible and making Lightning Bolt and other burn spells less of a threat.

It just seems like the only creatures you really care about are the ones that can flood the board, and they generally have toughness of one. In that instance, Nausea seems superior. It can also kill an unflipped Delver faster without needing to hinge on Ancient Tomb.

containment priest, stoneforge, batterskull, delver, swiftspear, entreat tokens, DRS, Dredge Zombie tokens, and so on. For 3 mana you can wrath the field OR for one life you have a nausea. the versatility is well worth the a mana and like. it hits things like emrakul and tarmogoyf in rare situations which do help.

[Michael Keller]

containment priest, stoneforge, batterskull, delver, swiftspear, entreat tokens, DRS, Dredge Zombie tokens, and so on. For 3 mana you can wrath the field OR for one life you have a nausea. the versatility is well worth the a mana and like. it hits things like emrakul and tarmogoyf in rare situations which do help.

I get that, but again: in a more combo-oriented variant with Natural Order, I see the clearing of an early board state more important because games tend to last shorter once Progenitus hits play. They counter your Chalice, stop your Libraries and then you smash them with the hydra. The first three turns will generally be dictated by x/1 creatures, which is really all you care about. If an opponent end-steps Entreat, you lose anyhow. Same with Zombies into Dread Return. I just think the value overall is worth it, where Deluge is more of a mana-intensive spell that really only shines against dudes with toughness two or more during the later turns where life is more of a necessity either through attrition or used towards drawing cards. I don't think this deck cares about those creatures because the curve of the format is dropping significantly - even in fair decks. Everyone wants to jam that x/1, turn one. Swiftspear being the exception, that card isn't going anywhere against this deck that will recoup lost life and put up a 4/4 in a hurry.

Batterskull is also trash against this deck, really. I play Acidic Slime side by side with Sage, which has been huge. Also is nice value with Spoil having the land destruction thing going on (very key against 12-Post). Not tarnishing the good name of Deluge, which is a crazy-good card, it's just in this deck I like the equalizer aspect of Nausea as opposed to the investment of both mana and life in Deluge. The deck houses mid game, but the early game can be a problem on the draw.

[TraxDaMax]

What exactly do you want to hit with Pyroclasm that you can't hit with Golgari Charm, Lejay? Flipped Delvers?

Edit: I also wonder how Tabernacle and Maze of Ith could work in the sideboard in a more Knight-heavy version.

I've been running Tabernacle. It gives my opponents the shivers :D

Also, what do you guys think of Engineered Plague side? Could it be better then Pyroclasms? I mean with a Bayou and sol-land we basicly get it out on turn 2 and on human it kills delver and YP, elves weep their way home and if needed that annoying merfolk rogue could be named. Don't know DnT well enough to know if it has any use there though.
Sorry if this has been asked already, I think I read everything here though and can't recall anything being said about it.

[apple713]

4th wasteland and 4th trinisphere aren't really clear sideboard cards, which is why I want to try them in the main deck and play everything I need to have in the sideboard.
Nobody talks about running the sb toolbox cards in the main. If you said that because I mentionned a GSZ deck could possibly run more than 60 cards, then think rather about things like dryad arbor or how qasali is weak in some number of match-ups.

About Taïga main :

This is like the third time you ask questions that have already been answered. I am patient but I have to underline that and ask you to read more carefully less threads rather than participating in so many different threads and reading them too quickly.
That said I realized how mox diamonds couldn't be considered a real mana source that could be replaced by lands (even utility lands) against control decks. So I will try other configurations, possibly 61 cards with 3 trini 4 wasteland and 2 lands sideboard. That way the land to spells ratio will still be good enough when you side out ancient tombs despite having just 2 lands sb.
About basic lands I never went below 4 basics and feel it's the minimum to protect from PoP (would probably be one more without mox diamonds). I didn't play against burn deck in a while though so I can't confirm old data with recent data.

First, sorry for asking repeated questions. I do appreciate the time you take to respond to me and everyone else. In my defense i did look through the thread before asking, and I do edit my posts if i find something after i make a post.

I feel like side boarding lands is not the best use of sideboard slots, unless they are utility lands like Karakas. Even if you move mox diamond to the sideboard you'll still have enough lands main deck. Even though you might be inclined to sideboard out ancient tombs against some decks, i wouldn't alter the number of lands in the sideboard for this purpose.

I get that, but again: in a more combo-oriented variant with Natural Order, I see the clearing of an early board state more important because games tend to last shorter once Progenitus hits play. They counter your Chalice, stop your Libraries and then you smash them with the hydra. The first three turns will generally be dictated by x/1 creatures, which is really all you care about. If an opponent end-steps Entreat, you lose anyhow. Same with Zombies into Dread Return. I just think the value overall is worth it, where Deluge is more of a mana-intensive spell that really only shines against dudes with toughness two or more during the later turns where life is more of a necessity either through attrition or used towards drawing cards. I don't think this deck cares about those creatures because the curve of the format is dropping significantly - even in fair decks. Everyone wants to jam that x/1, turn one. Swiftspear being the exception, that card isn't going anywhere against this deck that will recoup lost life and put up a 4/4 in a hurry.

Batterskull is also trash against this deck, really. I play Acidic Slime side by side with Sage, which has been huge. Also is nice value with Spoil having the land destruction thing going on (very key against 12-Post). Not tarnishing the good name of Deluge, which is a crazy-good card, it's just in this deck I like the equalizer aspect of Nausea as opposed to the investment of both mana and life in Deluge. The deck houses mid game, but the early game can be a problem on the draw.

Playing a combo version i can't imagine why the little bit of life bothers you. You're version is very different than mine but deluge should still serve the same purpose. i guess it's just a meta call.

[Memories of the Time]

Friend of mine suggests Word of Worship against burn/UR. If we could do it in time it's gg i think, with library... you know. Otherwise Timely Reinforcements?

[ESG]

Deluge is a deluge in my deck because I like having a slot that can deal with some otherwise difficult things to handle like serra avenger, wilt-leaf liege, progenitus, or a board of merfolk lords. It also kills more things against UR and elves.
For a -1/-1 effect nausea's casting cost is interesting but I probably would still try golgari charm first.

To add to the list: Toxic Deluge can kill a True-Name Nemesis equipped with a Sword; Nausea can't.

[Michael Keller]

To add to the list: Toxic Deluge can kill a True-Name Nemesis equipped with a Sword; Nausea can't.

It can but I'm only referring to Nausea's early-game effectiveness. Sage and Slime can kill the Sword - if we're at a point where Nemesis and an equipment have both resolved and paired themselves on the board. A Nemesis also isn't matching forces with a Progenitus. As long as you can clear the board of tokens, Pyromancer, etc., that's all you care about to stall the game long enough to break the game open.

Again, I'm not saying Deluge is a bad card, because it isn't and is really superior in most decks. But in this one after relentless testing, it just seems like Nausea is really the stronger card on the draw where you're not eating it to a Daze off Tomb and Bayou or paying more than a life and a third mana to effectively kill critters that gum the board up for one mana and one less life. People give these cards a bad wrap (like Caltrops and Nausea), but in Legacy - right now - these cards are excellent.

Maybe it's just me, but the only creatures I care about killing are the ones that gum the board up on those first three turns to quash any line of play by an opponent to flood the board. Almost every one I can think of has a toughness of one. Deluge is the better overall card, but Nausea's early-game appeal of neutering the board of these creatures and setting up the big turn-four play just seems like value. Again, we're talking about a one, two-slot card at most in boards, so it's not overly critical here.

Rolling Spoil is in the deck and has a built-in Nausea effect. The question becomes just how important the land destruction aspect is built on top of the -1/-1 effect. It's very good against a variety of decks and gives the deck major tempo, but if you're looking to simplify things a card that does half of what Spoil does - arguably the more appealing half - without the heavier color investment, seems good.

(Not that it also matters, but because I play more Deathrite Shaman to power out faster Natural Orders - necessitating a turn-two or three Deluge for more than one seems bad when killing your own creatures and staring the card dead in hand.)

[phazonmutant]

I lost a game yesterday to BUG Delver who played turn 1 Shaman into turn 2 Delver + Shaman, into Delver + Decay. I curved out nicely too, Library into Chalice into Rolling Spoil, but Chalice got Decayed, Rolling Spoil was countered by him Wasting his own land, and basically the only thing that could stop his horde of X/2s was Toxic Deluge. I know BUG isn't popular, but this deck is very metagamed against non-Deathrite decks currently. Adding effects that kill Deathrite and flipped Delvers is important to regain the initiative against them.

Last night went a mediocre 2-2.
R1 I won against Elves very easily - turn 3 Trinisphere into Rolling Spoil for all of his permanents, then beats and Spike Weaver for the lock.
R2 Lost to Junk Maverick. He got Gaddock Teeg out early and I drew a bunch of lands. Then Wasteland and Thalia kept me off balance enough for Knight to come down, and Swords on Ooze took it over. I didn't draw castable removal at all, so maybe also a bad draw, but this matchup seems abysmal. Rolling Spoil was pretty bad - it cost 5, Knight could counter it, and it would only kill Thalia.
R3 Won against Miracles. Game one he had 2 Forces for Library and Choke, but I had another Library and drew into more Chokes and creatures. Game 2 he got me super low with a Containment Priest, but Library and running Baloths took over.
R4 Lost to BUG Delver. Game 1 he had the quad-X/2 draw with disruption that was just too fast. Game 2 I kept 2 Wastelands and a Bayou with Chalice and Library. He allowed Chalice, Decayed Library, then Wasted my Bayou and I didn't draw colored sources before Goyfs won.

Is Titania actually good for you guys? When would you have won with her that you wouldn't have won without? I found I'm most likely to lose against very fast or Wasteland-heavy draws (if I draw non-basics). That makes me want to lower the curve and play more early threats. Here's something I'm thinking of:
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Obstinate Baloth

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
3 Trinisphere
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Rolling Spoil

4 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Mox Diamond
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Karakas

// Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Massacre
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Choke
1 Trinisphere
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Containment Priest
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 other creature - Ooze, Baloth, Giant Solifuge, Spike Weaver

I like the Wildwood as another colored source that can also block Delver or Thalia. Against control it's a fine threat too. I'm not certain 4 Wastelands are necessary - against blue decks, Choke and Wasteland serve the same purpose, and against non-blue decks we usually want to keep our mana sources in play because we're the control or have a higher curve. I'm not sure if the sideboard Choke and Trinisphere are necessary, those matchups should be pretty good already. I'm not sure what the random fattie slots in the board should be though. Ooze should be good against Maverick and Jund, some tougher matchups, Baloth is also good against Jund and can shore up the Burn and UR Delver matchups (which might just be slightly favorable instead of very). Solifuge and Weaver offer random utility, but I'm not sure they're needed in those matchups. What do you guys think?

[Michael Keller]

I play two Titania, and it's been sick.

[phazonmutant]

I play two Titania, and it's been sick.

Ok, why? I realize you're playing Natural Order so you have more and cheaper tutors for her, but I can't imagine Ordering for Titania over Progenitus. I've never drawn it and had it be anything more than another random dork that cost a little more than the others; and the few times I've wanted to Green Sun for it because I'm losing, I couldn't...because I'm losing.

[Michael Keller]

Ok, why? I realize you're playing Natural Order so you have more and cheaper tutors for her, but I can't imagine Ordering for Titania over Progenitus. I've never drawn it and had it be anything more than another random dork that cost a little more than the others; and the few times I've wanted to Green Sun for it because I'm losing, I couldn't...because I'm losing.

I play Zuran Orb to make lots of green Juggernauts!

Also, it's not all about Ordering for Titania. A natural draw or Zenith works, too. The card is insane in this deck and with Courser the synergy is sick.

Titania wins on her own and can take over a game very quickly.

EDIT: I main one and board another.

[Barook]

I noticed that Lejay lost another two matches in yesterday's DE to Delver (UR and UWR).

Unlucky or not, that blue insect seems troublesome despite the inclusion of Abrupt Decay.

Which brings me to the question what the cards/strategies are that the deck is weak against, so we can tackle them.

From my experience so far, Batterskull and Jace spell trouble, even with a few options to deal with them. From what I've heart, Reanimator and Sneak & Show also seem rather troublesome. Anything else to add?

[apple713]

I noticed that Lejay lost another two matches in yesterday's DE to Delver (UR and UWR).

Unlucky or not, that blue insect seems troublesome despite the inclusion of Abrupt Decay.

Which brings me to the question what the cards/strategies are that the deck is weak against, so we can tackle them.

From my experience so far, Batterskull and Jace spell trouble, even with a few options to deal with them. From what I've heart, Reanimator and Sneak & Show also seem rather troublesome. Anything else to add?

the deck has trouble managing resources so cards like smallpox really give it trouble if they resolve. Taking a land, a card, and a creature is huge. By no means am i suggesting running pox in here but maybe attacking their resources 2 at a time to generate value, like a land and creature. acidic slime comes to mind but doesn't block delver. I would imagine Planes walkers that are able to generate advantage could help but they may also be too slow, or easily killed by flying delver.

has anyone considered changing the colors? white does not seem to add that much (looking at lejay's list). The inclusions are clearly useful but are they so irreplaceable that changing to red instead of white would hurt the deck? Black is slightly more significant but mainly just removal. Red has comparable removal and might be able to attack multiple resources like lands and creatures better. Ledgy wanted to include pyroclasm which is amazing right now in the format.

White
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

Black - 4 single target removal - 4 sweepers - 2 grave hate
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
1 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre