If you're not down with the 5/3s, I think your buddies in Atlanta might need to kick you off their team.Originally Posted by phazonmutant
Yes, in my testing with the deck (I play Lejay's last list) BS is indeed a pain in the butt. After side with double Pridemage it gets a little better, but it is still troublesome. Jace hasn't caused me lots of trouble. In general we can play 2 creatures to kill it. Titania is really awesome against him! And after side you get Solifuge to crush him into the earth.
Concerning Delver, that's a different thing though. A fast (flipped) delver is a sword of Damocles that needs to be adressed as soon as possible. I've been browsing Gatherer for answers and these are the ones that seem playable:
- Arbor Colossus (2GGG 6/6)*
- Bow of Nylea (artifact 1GG)
- Cloudthresher (2GGGG 7/7)*
- Corrosive Gale (sorcery XG[Phyrexian Mana])
- Daybreak Ranger (2G 2/2)*
- Firespout (sorcery 2R/G)
- Ifh-Biff Efreet (2GG 3/3)*
- Needlestorm (sorcery 2G)
- Raking Canopy (enchantment 1GG)
- Silklash Spider (3GG 2/7)*
- Squall (sorcery 2G)
- Squall Line (instant XGG)
- Trophy Hunter (2G 2/3)*
- Tropical storm (sorcery XG)
- Whirlwind (sorcery 2GG)
- Wind Shear (instant 2G)
- Windstorm (instant XG)
Last edited by Darklingske; 12-03-2014 at 07:49 AM. Reason: extra info
I think Skylusher and Penumbra Spider could be good cards too. BTW i think that the problem isn't solvable with just 1x.
The point about other colors seems interesting to me: i think that what we need is an optimized and strong solution to delver , burn and combo like Reanimator and (much more) S&T
Thing is, a red splash would solve the weenie problem with a Punishing Fire engine and sideboard Clasms/Firesprout, while white gives answers to high CC cards (even though Teeg clashes with the rest of the deck), an awesome beater in Knight and Karakas to bounce legendary fatties.
Without black, you lose your answers to TNN - unless you want to go so balls-deep into white that you can run Council's Judgment (or Holy Light, for the matter). While a G/W/r list might be possible, the resulting manabase is highly likely to be an irredeemable clusterfuck.
If people are recreating the framework of the deck to support white with a black splash, isn't the deck just a Dark Maverick hybrid with Chalice and Trinisphere? I think the G/B variation is solid enough without fucking up the way the land configuration is set. Chalice and Trinisphere are the heart and soul of the deck, and to put them into a configuration supporting three or more colors just seems like an oversimplification of the original concept of locking an opponent out and beating them down with big dudes.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 12-03-2014 at 12:01 PM.
Wow will not help versus UR and their beaters (I also generally keep 0-1 sylvan only) and timely won't be as good as a mass removal too often while being more targeted towards burn and UR.
I don't understand zuran orb (hoping it's a sb card) since burn is a very good match-up and it doesn't seem that great versus UR. About Titania yes it's awesome in many situations but less when you can't cast it. Are you dropping kalonian+weaver for it ? I am afraid you may take the mana curve a bit too high. I also think Titania/kalonian does the job natural order does and running 2x Titania in a NO build seems too heavy for it to always function well. You should probably post your decklist and thoughts or give a link.
I did the same at the beginning. Cards that I found worthy of testing (and dismissed) are :
Arbor colossus : was an early top curve GSZ target that was good versus delver and goyf before we ran decay. Obviously it has been outclassed by running decay and other 5cc spells that made it in the list.
Bow of nylea : A bit slow and targeted but I liked it and considered it for a come back when I had an occasion. It got cut when I had to splash and make many sacrifices to play abrupt decay x4.
Daybreak ranger : even had the taiga for it. Was too slow for delver (would die far too often) and wasn't flipping often enough unless you are already winning. I had the taiga for it. I think when it comes to delver it comes after stingerfling spider, bassara tower archer and penumbra spider.
Firespout : I wouldn't play it without a taiga, and with just one taiga I would still play pyroclasm before it (slightly). Mana cost versus those daze decks is a big thing and while pyroclasm doesn't answer serra avenger, with 4 decay in the deck I'd much rather have pyroclasm for mirran crusader.
Among cards I didn't test I think tropical storm is the best. But I don't feel it can make it.
Yes I agree in that we need the quantity. Traditionnally the best answer to delvers was to overload on removals post board. But that strategy (which already had a cost) isn't that smart anymore now that TNN is a thing. Cards that kill both flipped delvers and TNN are at 3cc minimum ("except" massacre in some circumstances), and 3cc is already late facing an agressive deck and is hard to play versus opposing daze and fows fueled by treasure cruises.
I think stingerfling spider is the best GSZ answer to delver that is still versatile. Targeting mainly delver Bassara tower archer and penumbra are the best GSZ targets. Obviously skylasher is the best answer in hand but is very narrow. One versatile card that I was close to testing a couple of times is leafcrown dryad. But I really don't see how I could insert those and think the power level of cards that make in the deck went up too high to consider it. If someone feels like testing it though he has my blessing.
Maybe cutting both stingerfling and Bassara had too much of an impact versus delver, dailies didn't go that well with the 62 cards build after my 4-0. But that was mainly due to just never seeing my removal spells (except in one match where I saw them all, that was awesome) so I am still liking the pyroclasms idea. That was at least good for testing since I finally found a configuration with pyroclasms and 60 cards :
1 [R] Savannah
1 [CS] Swamp
1 [R] Taiga
1 [KTK] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Bayou
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [CS] Forest
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [C14] Reclamation Sage
1 [C14] Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
3 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [8E] Choke
4 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [MM] Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 [EX] Spike Weaver
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [M14] Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
Taiga can found its spot in the second savannah slot if you remove qasali for reclamation sage. That has already cost me a game though against tin fins G1 for a lack of clock, but I still think it's the best thing we can do for the manab base if running pyroclasms sb.
4th wasteland sb (or md depending on what list you compare to) completely disappeared. I just accept having one less land post sb versus UR for a great removal spell (pyroclasm) and like I said last page I think, we don't need that many lands when we side out mox diamonds because there aren't really mana sources.
4th trinisphere completely got cut , but in fact it's not really that. Consider faerie macabre slot is 4th trinisphere. I am testing an additionnal grave hate slot because the deck has so few ways to defend himself before lock pieces come down. I don't think losing a trinisphere versus control decks is that much of a liability. We do lose a slot versus omnitell though. But having a faerie macabre (could be trap#3) will help more I feel versus storm, reanimator, tin fins and dredge. Since I found trinisphere to be a bit slow versus UR and since I don't want four of them versus sfm decks (0 versus UWR and death and taxes) cutting 4th seems more than testable. I even had 2 post board versus merfolk recently (with 2 sylvans only).
Maelstrom pulse replaced reclamation sage sb. Not sure how good or bad it is but there are some advantages. First having a pulse is better versus miracles and since I lost a slot with 4th trini it compensates a bit. But main thing is I wanted to have as many removals as possible versus delver decks since I had problems never drawing any in some events. It answers batterskull about as well as sage also when you draw it.
First daily with it I was out due to a long disconnection problem. The other one I played I went 3-1 losing last round to Jeskai Ascendency (piloted by Brad Nelson so maybe the video of the match will be published). I am not familiar with modern so I may have made at least one mistake in G3 and probably didn't have the perfect sideboard strategy.
I like the plague idea, it has some interesting things going for it. Big problem is not killing flipped delvers but it's better in numbers and it makes our rolling spoils more efficient. One problem with plague versus elves is traditionanlly abrupt decay and sage but since sage doesn't come back and since that would overload on decay targets it seems ok. There could be a split with Night of souls' betrayal but I don't like it that much with dryads so I'll start without it. I will probably test a "Sylvan Plague" configuration soon with 4 engineered plague sb for testing purposes in the mass removal slots of the list above.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Is "Sylvan Plug" the final name? Otherwise, I'd like to throw in "Woodstaxx" as suggestion.
I like the 4 Plague idea. Considering it sticks around to keep creatures off the board, it's kinda like a prison element.
What I like about the idea are the usages against UR Delver - E-Plague on Elemental can kill tons of tokens if they're already swarming the field. Otherwise, naming Humans is nuts against them - kills unflipped Delvers and Pyromancers, and 2 copies let never ever another one of their creature cards enter the battlefied again.
On a different note:
Probably 99.99% unplayable, but the interaction between Tainted Aether and Titania is rather hilarious - you turn all your lands into 5/3s.
I'm playing for a Black Lotus this Saturday, and I know some people attending who frequent these forums. No advantage, what so ever to them.
At any rate, a single Zuran Orb is actually very good against U/R and enables an all-out assault with Titania on the board. You don't need to sacrifice lands until you absolutely have to, and this deck controls the early game enough where it can be a huge enabler in the mid to late game off the top with Titania on the table. With the saturated amount of life-gaining cards weaved into the fabric of the deck, I fail to see how Zuran Orb doesn't seem great as both a free survival kit and Titania enabler both main and out of the board.
You're missing the whole point with "taking the curve too high"; this is a Chalice/3Ball deck. Your goal is to cripple the early game with said cards and crush the mid game with either big creatures or, if you run N.O., a Progenitus or what-have-you. I run Tomb and Spirit Guide with a pair of Deathrite Shaman, so getting to five mana is absolutely never an issue. The issue becomes endgame and inevitability and Titania with Natural Order is about as good as you're going to get here. Kalonian Hydra is really not great when facing down Swords, so the comparison between that and Progenitus is null. Titania in conjunction with Zuran Orb laughs off Swords and Bolt.
This deck should never have a problem casting cards that cost four mana or greater, at least not my version.
On the turn you generate a mass of green Juggernauts, you're also putting yourself way out of harm's way in the process and likely keeping you in position to win the game with a massive crack-back. You're gaining, what, eight to twelve lives in the process? Assuming somehow, someway an opponent can make it past Chalice and Trinisphere, how are they going to punch through an additional ten to twelve life while facing down a horde of Juggernauts?
For example, say you play Titania - or Orb - facing down two flipped Delvers. You're at, say, eight life. Titania or the Orb resolves, and you sacrifice all of your lands to make five 5/3's and gain ten life. That's about the biggest swing in a game of fair Legacy you can get. Zuran Orb actually creates the rare backdoor where you don't say, "If only I had one more turn." It also helps a lot with Library out.
Sick.
probably i'm somehow retarded, but Ratchet Bomb? Solves delver and pyrotoken (killing chalice too, true), Miracle angels and -in general- exploits the difference between our cc and theirs
Killing Chalice (and your Moxen) might indeed be a problem.
@Lejay: I saw that you're testing some new tech in the daily you went 4-0 with - Bow of Nylea, Bojuka Bog and E-Plague, from what I saw. How were the changes so far?
On a different note:
How has been the splash for red so far? The tech is shamelessly stolen from this thread, but Words of War piqued my interest. At worst, you draw a Shock when you want to to shoot down stuff like flipped Delvers, but it becomes nuts with Sylvan Library in play, even better with multiple ones, assuming you have the mana.
I went 3-1 yesterday. Played almost the same decks, and 2 of the same players. Beat UWR Delver (no Wastes), Lost to Junk Maverick, beat Elves, beat BUG Delver.
In one of the games I lost to Maverick, I played pretty atrociously. The other, I was stuck on 2 lands while he had a couple lands, Thalia, and a Teeg in play. I was basically locked out of my hand and ended up dying slowly. And then against BUG, by the time I could play my Baloth through Daze, I had already locked up the game, but his Goyfs were a major obstacle that caused me to lose game 2.
So that had me thinking - I wish there was a cheap threat that could block Goyf... Oh right. Goyf. Why aren't we playing several? It's better than Titania in almost every situation where you're behind, and can come down much earlier and be bigger than Baloth.
My list I'm thinking about playing in Portland:
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Obstinate Baloth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Rolling Spoil
2 Mox Diamond
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 g fetch
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
// Sideboard
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pyroclasm
2 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
I also cut a Choke because I don't think we need the help in those matchups and the second is pretty redundant. Might be board-worthy though. A quick clock should help close before they can deal with the disruption.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
Who are you, and how did you get Greg's password?
... as is tradition getting a chalice forced happens quite alot I've never had a 3/4 or bigger Daze protected Goyf to follow it up with. seems good.
this is how i feel. your blue matchups are generally good, and choke seems like either overkill, or not detrimental enough.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
@phazonmutant: The deck isn't very good at putting various card types into the GY itself while also trying to prevent your opponents from doing so.
This deck does have a bunch of artifacts and enchantments that tend to get countered/blown up, and runs its own instants and sorceries. And while GSZ doesn't end up in the bin super frequently, it does happen. On top of that, your opponent is still playing their own instants and sorceries.
205p tournament today in Italy... lost the last turn (And 600e )against elves to reach top8.
t1 Infect 2-0
t2 reanimator 1-2 (obviously, sigh. Both times he win was for t1 entomb t2 exume/reanimate.... nice)
t3 Tes 2-1
t4 Miracle 2-0
t5 Miracle 2-0
t6 Miracle 1-1 (fuck, i've lost a game in a situation like: opponent with 1 angel, i'm at 6 life with coursier and ooze, library in play... shuffle, see, shuffle, for three turns all i've seen is lands and one library in like... 9 cards? No sense, almost every card would give me the win.)
t7 Deathblade 2-1
t8 Elves 0-2 g1 manage to play chalice 1 and trinisphere, he topdeck gaea zenith for sage break trini bounce with the insect already in play and break chalice too...
Lots of mulligans, almost for too few lands. Only in one match color screw for Rhino, i've seen very little wastelands in the room, and it has given me games that, with baloth, i would lost. Titania is amazing, kotr too, just have to improve the deck and test all the splash (red is very interesting, but we need white for Containment priest.)
Sorry for the mistakes, i'm very tired ^^ totally in love with this deck, yes =d
The list:
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Windswept Heath
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Karakas
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dust Bowl
2 Mox Diamond
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Worship
SB: 3 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Trinisphere
I have been testing a lot of new cards recently, all at once.I think I will keep some of them but bow of nylea is too specific for the main deck, and I don't think I can play a card dedicated to UR and burn.
I didn't play that much with the red splash lately both because I tested plagues and because I enjoyed having 4th wasteland instead of second savannah (with sage and no qasali). I think I will be on a 2 deluge 2 massacre split (+pulse in the old sb sage slot) from now on as I can't find a better configuration that let's me play with 4th wasteland. Plague will certainly be worth it in some metagames, but in unknown metas there could be chances you lack efficient removals with them.
I am testing with a bojuka bog among my 3 fast gravehates right now. It isn't great versus ant and reanimator, but it seems nice in the UR match-up both as 3rd sb land to replace tombs, a colored mana for massacre reliability, and an anti-delve card. So far the CIP tapped ability is not that much of a problem whereas exiling the opponent's grave has been pretty good.
RicFlairWoo tested intensively with Goyfs at the beginning so he will probably talk about them better than I would, but he finally dropped the idea.
It's not impossible for a one of goyf to make it but honestly saying it is better than Titania in almost every situation is completely wrong. You probably didn't play enough with her.
@Memories of the time : Nice run. I am still not sold on rhinos but I agree it is at least more doable now with mox diamonds. I also can get behind the containment priest idea if you meta runs a lot of sneak shows (even if you didn't face any this time). That said let me point out that you lost against reanimator and elves in quite commons ways (yes reanimator often goes turn 1 bin turn 2 reanimation spell and sage+decay+NO in elfball means your prison elements will sometimes just be able to save you some time). I face these match-ups on a regular basis online and that is partly why I run these fast grave hates and the spike+kalonian plan.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
@Lejay: thank you, now you're more famous in italy because of the number of people that have asked me info about my deck.
On the maindeck i think that the core satisfies me, probably 2x rhino is too much (or baloth), you just want to slam him on the table and see your oppo goes insane to remove him. I think that the only non-1x creatures i want is Courser, that's amazing.
On the sb, i don't know... if you put in Faerie Macabre (that's the more efficient card against Reanimator and Dredge, a 0 cost) how many oh them? Three could be a good number, but without Priest they still are the only way to win (against t2 combo), so you just mulligan to search her? At this point is better Leyline?
Anyway, against UR delver (and a lot more cards), can i suggest a old-tech from my Demon Stompy? Crypt Rats (a nightmare for Miracle too, kill pw and angel).(forgotten Only black mana:Don't think is realistic against miracle, Still 2 mana wipe out many board
I did have 2 ravenous trap 1 faerie macabre until recently, but I decided putting in bojuka bog and it seems to do the work I intended it to versus UR so far. So I'll continue playing with a 1-1-1 which seems ok since cabal therapy is often played in these decks. Of course if you expect only reanimator or only dredge, then just adapt the slots.
I don't like crypt rats against UR at all, it's seems clearly inferior to toxic deluge.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
No comment for Worship? Easy a gg against UR or i'm missing something?
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