Caltrops is card I thought about but chose Thunderstaff. I switched 2 Fearie Macabre for them as in 4 days of testing this deck I haven't sided in Fearies even once. From the standard days of the past I remember Sun Droplet but it's probably too cute. Now I'm happy with 2 Thunderstaffs to buy time vs UR(x) decks.
Ideas I'm working on:
a) Finding room for the 2nd Reclamation Sage in the 75.
b) Finding room for Krosan Grip vs Batterskull decks.
c) Trying to fit a Mountain&Pyroclasm combo.
Deck is a blast. I've never have higher percentage of rage quits and flood of insults.
Heh, How could I not have thought you would also be interested in this deck :DOriginally Posted by Darklingske
It sure looks like fun. Well, for the one playing it atleast...
Small sample size thus far, but I just creamed Miracles and Patriot with this deck in two sets each.
Could you elaborate?
I'm not sold on cutting the Wastelands for ESG. The addition of Wasteland was probably one of the better additions the archetype.
I jammed some games yesterday, using Lejay's list as base (since I currently don't have ESG and don't feel like buying a playset):
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Obstinate Baloth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
4 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Rolling Spoil
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Stingerfling Spider
1 Spike Weaver
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Karakas
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Massacre
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Trinisphere
Cutting Choke for the NO package is definitely a massive shift - while Choke is good against blue decks, NO kinda sucks against free counters. I'm not sure how to feel about it, since either package is dead in certain match-ups, but I can see the appeal in certain match-ups where NO basically autowins. Elderscale Wurm is definitely better than Archangel, who says "Find a way to deal with me or you won't be able to win with damage!".
If I take a liking in that version of the list, SB changes are necessary.
I overall like Lejay's sideboard plan so far, although it lacks proper answers against Jace and Batterskull.
While I'm not entirely sure about MD Choke anymore, I would try to run at least 3 in the board. They can be still game-winning pieces against blue decks.
What's the Gaea's Blessing for? And I don't see the point of Primal Order, since it seems pretty underwhelming for what it does.
What's your board plan vs. Sneak and Show? Currently, you're completely cold to it.
Question: Could you incorporate River Boa into this deck somehow? Seems like a solid 2-drop vs. most blue decks...
Also, why not more Thragtusks? Seems mostly better than the other big beasts available to this deck.
Just thought I'd point out that Sun Droplet is actually a staple sideboard card for MUD against burn. It recoups your life from Ancient Tombs when you're not getting bolted left and right. How is Thunderstaff for you?
Wastelands are fine to play if you want to go that route. I just see no merit in them as the decks that rely heavily on a lower curve tend not to need an overabundance of mana resources anyhow, so it just felt underwhelming.
This is a deck that wants to power out turn-one Trinisphere or Chalice, and the existing configuration only had a few Tombs and a miser's City of Traitors to accomplish that feat. ESG gives you gas against Rishadan Port and Wasteland on the draw, in addition to facing down turn-one Blood Moon effects where that green can be key. It's very multifaceted and an elegant, yet sneaky way of getting around awkward circumstances and powering out huge plays like the aforementioned lock pieces or Natural Order turns one and two.
You want to dictate the pace of the game, and this gives you that ability to shut decks down before they get started.
Elvish Spirit Guide is a quick resource that allows you to play around Daze when the turn-one Chalice off Tomb hits play, and enables turn-two Natural Order plays with an EOT-fetch-Arbor. I jammed games all night with that package and was able to blowout just about every opponent I played against. They either needed to deal with Chalice/3-Ball or get smashed by the hydra. Empyrial Archangel also saved me more than once against random aggro and Burn.
Green Sun's Zenith is great in the deck, don't get me wrong, but this deck doesn't have a very good endgame. It has a bunch of redundant biggies that do certain things, but sometimes that's not enough. Ending the game at a moment's notice is a very real option.
You can still test cards in a deck without needing to buy them; that really isn't your argument for not testing with them, right?I jammed some games yesterday, using Lejay's list as base (since I currently don't have ESG and don't feel like buying a playset):
In a deck with a bunch of random green creatures with various utilities, being able to have that inevitability is key. Again, Spirit Guide helps you dodge Daze, Spell Pierce is really at a low point of general play and if your opponent decides to Force it, then so be it. You can't really argue that a free counter makes Natural Order "suck," because then really any deck without free counters to fight back sucks by default. Not a good argument, and I understand that losing a creature can be a problem. However, the reward greatly outweighs the risk and I've played a similar, yet older model of this deck to high finishes in the past.Cutting Choke for the NO package is definitely a massive shift - while Choke is good against blue decks, NO kinda sucks against free counters.
Trust me: if you're playing a Chalice-Aggro variant, you want options and an endgame. You're playing to the strengths of the top of your deck, and a card like Natural Order changes the dynamic of the entire strategy in a beneficial way. Choke is fine main as well, but again I just feel that decks with lower curves that play Daze don't need to worry all that much about it early on and being a dead draw acting more as a non-applicable lock piece when facing down non-blue decks seems really bad. Natural Order is never a dead card. It's [Choke] better against Miracles, but then again, so is every other card in this deck that shuts it down [Chalice, 3-Ball, Abrupt Decay, etc.].
Grip, Sage, Slime and Decay for the token [and Mystic] should be able to handle Batterskull. The overabundance of threats in the main should make Jace less of a threat when it hits the board, and cards like Empyrial Archangel and Progenitus with Shroud. Wurm eats it to Swords, which I don't like.I'm not sure how to feel about it, since either package is dead in certain match-ups, but I can see the appeal in certain match-ups where NO basically autowins. Elderscale Wurm is definitely better than Archangel, who says "Find a way to deal with me or you won't be able to win with damage!".
I overall like Lejay's sideboard plan so far, although it lacks proper answers against Jace and Batterskull.
I could see this as a possibility. I'm running two to compliment the other heavy lock components in the deck.While I'm not entirely sure about MD Choke anymore, I would try to run at least 3 in the board. They can be still game-winning pieces against blue decks.
Gaea's Blessing is a card I was testing out of the board for primarily the Painter match-up, with added utility against Reanimator, Dredge, Loam strategies and other graveyard-based decks. It replaces itself at worst, and gives the deck an element of blowout surprise against something like Painter where you can make them pay the following turn for the abrupt would-be winning activation. I doubt it's the best card to have in the board, but this deck already has so many good match-ups against most Legacy decks seeing play right now that one has to wonder if jamming more redundancy in the sideboard for those match-ups is worth it, or if some trickery and rounded utility is the better way to go.What's the Gaea's Blessing for? And I don't see the point of Primal Order, since it seems pretty underwhelming for what it does.
So, as far as Primal Order goes, clearly this deck has an issue against Lands, because let's face it: lock pieces are fairly unimpressive when your opponent can just flood the board with mana sources and grind you out. I didn't like this, and it also comes back to the importance of Progenitus and Angel with the Natural Order package main. Primal Order is a card that domes an opponent with a heavy non-basic setup each turn for tons of damage. Remember, this is a control deck. Ruination in the face of Life from the Loam and Mox Diamond isn't all that great, but still has its merits for the big hit. Primal Order dealing five to seven damage a turn at no cost and remaining out of Decay range is something to consider, in addition to being a card needing to be dealt with or face down serious damage without the Tabernacle or Port shenanigans that could potentially hold us back.
Primal Order is a static source of massive amounts of damage that can just flat-out crush a Lands or Loam player. It can also act as a de facto burn spell when damage on the table is short and gives you the win during that opponent's upkeep - before they can attack or do anything else.
Simply put, it actually beats decks heavy on non-basics by itself. Lands is a deck that would just get destroyed by this card. I suppose you could also splash for Blood Moon if you wanted to, which I feel is also better than Ruination in most instances and easier to cast.
The deck isn't completely cold to it. Showing in a Progenitus or Archangel against Griselbrand main gives the deck a shot, and Acidic Slime and Sage both destroy Sneak Attack. Spoil can also attack their resources early if they try to power out the Attack off Show and Tell without another red source. Obviously OmniTell gets flushed with Trinisphere.What's your board plan vs. Sneak and Show? Currently, you're completely cold to it.
As far as the sideboard goes, Grip takes out Attack without mana. If an opponent is Showing something in and it resolves (which it will because we're not playing blue to stop it), then the best we can do is counter it by running maybe a few Ashen Riders. I don't see a lot of it in my meta, which is why I don't board too much for it. I would adjust accordingly if I expected it more.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 11-20-2014 at 01:00 PM.
Of the top 90 most frequently played nonland cards:
Chalice of the Void at one stops 38.82% of the format
Chalice of the Void at two stops 28.24% of the format
Chalice of the Void at three stops 10.59% of the format
Right now the card is incredibly powerful, probably more than it ever has been.
You'd almost want to play Brainstorm AND Chalice. Trading 3 or 4 brainstorms against 20 of your opponents cards is a nice trade; and you still get to play with Brainstorm.
Choke hits 24.71% of the cards. The real number is much higher, probably twice as high at least. The value is low because blue decks are almost never monocolored, it doesn't account for duals nor the fact that Force of Will won't cause lands to tap, and that Daze will actually untap an island. Even with 'bad' analysis we know without the shadow of a doubt that Choke hits a quarter of the most popular cards in competitive legacy. I'd estimate the real figure is probably double if you account for dual lands getting tapped to play non-blue spells (Volcanic Island and Tundra decks in particular. e.g. delver and miracles cards)
This also means that Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast have plenty of targets to go around.
Two cards that I would love to try out in this deck would be Master of the Wild Hunt and Rampaging Baloths. I'm not sure if they are good enough to replace any of the current threats, but they're both must answer threats that can get out of control very quickly.
Baloth is one mana more expensive than Titania and doesn't give immediate value.
As much as I like Master of the Wild Hunt, he's best against decks that run AD instead of StP and/or Bolt as removal. Given the current popularity of UR and UWR shells, I don't think he's well-positioned right now.
Thunderstaff reduces bleeding vs UR in a decent way. I like them in a version without red + pyroclasm / firespout.
I think the more appropriate creature at 4CMC would be Huntmaster of the Fells, as it gains life and provides Blockers, as well as potentially taking over the game, but Taiga surely isn't great.
How about a non-creature spell: Garruk Relentless. I know it isn't tutorable, but it is great at controlling the game, taking it over and cannot be killed that easily. Alsois easier than
Last edited by hofzge; 11-20-2014 at 10:03 AM.
Chalice on 1
Garruk can eat a Bolt with either the activated or triggered transform ability on the stack; something to consider. Although putting a wall of Wolf tokens in front of him to protect himself seems decent.I think the more appropriate creature at 4CMC would be Huntmaster of the Fells, as it gains life and provides Blockers, as well as potentially taking over the game, but Taiga surely isn't great.
How about a non-creature spell: Garruk Relentless. I know it isn't tutorable, but it is great at controlling the game, taking it over and cannot be killed that easily. Also
[Edit: 4,000 posts. Only took eleven years!]
I playtested the deck a bit online since the GP and I played in my first irl tournament with the deck today.
In my testing I've liked playing qasali main and reclamation sage sideboard. I also tested a Knight of the reliquary since GP NJ week-end and it's definitely a good option. There are other good options for this deck but I think I will continue playing it. It also improves the value of sideboard lands and gives a tutorable (delayed) land destruction effect on GSZ. Other than that I only tested the singleton mox diam again in the golgari signet slot since I had so many lands and light splashed a third color main.
Couldn't think of anything else to improve the deck and I spent the last few days playing in modern because of the MOCS. I didn't qualify so I went to a 30 players event in Paris. However on the morning before going I suddenly realized that if I played a second mox diamond (which isn't bad on its own), the option of playing a second dryad (so that your GSZ are always live Turn 1) would switch from not worthing it to a being a good option. So I tweaked a bit the list and played this :
1 [UNH] Snow-Covered Swamp
2 [R] Bayou
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [R] Savannah
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Snow-Covered Forest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [C14] Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
2 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [8E] Choke
4 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [MM] Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 [M12] Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 [EX] Spike Weaver
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [C14] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [M14] Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [TE] Wasteland
I didn't like much going to 3 wastelands main (even more since Titania) but I couldn't find a more satisfying configuration. I REALLY didn't like going down to two baloths but Kotr takes already one of the slots and I really liked the idea of having 2 coursers with 4 sylvan library and 2 mox diamond. Library is even more of a 4-of with two mox diamonds in my opinion.
After thinking a lot on how to put back at least a third baloth I considered that tourney an occasion to test with two only plus two coursers and see how it goes.
4th Wasteland went into the side. I've been oscillating from 2 to 3 lands in the sideboard to replace tombs versus agressive match-ups, and having these three lands was also pretty nice for the grindy blue match-ups that made me remove chrome mox and elvish spirit guide. Against those I can sideboard out 2x mox diam and the second dryad arbor for the three lands in the side, giving them even more value.
I've cut the Bassara/Matsu/2nd deluge slot for that wasteland since it was the weakest. Worth noting I will probably side in faerie macabre as a blocker versus UR with this configuration but that remains to be tested.
5 rounds no top.
Round 1 versus Romain with solidarity.
Poor guy just never plays blue decks usually. Mox diam was awesome for accel in G1 but also against remand on a library in G2 (T1 tomb->chalice forced T2 forest->sylvan->remand->moxdiam->sylvan). I win both games with prison elements pretty easily.
2-0
1-0
Round 2 versus Nicolas with BUG Nic Fit.
A deed deck should be quite the worst match-up but at least he plays blue. That will quite impact the match even though he tried fetching around choke. I think he blows up a deed too early to get rid of chalice and brainstorm to hit his 3rd land drop, but he fails to find one anyway. Even if finds his land in the next unknown card he is too far behind. G2 I put him to 8 and he then stalls with a veteran explorer against my board. The turn before I obviously will attack for lethal he decays his own Veteran and play DTT to find deed or damanation or deluge (choke on board for his expensive spells in hand) and fails to do so thankfully.
2-0
2-0
Round 3 versus Cyril with affinity
Sounds like a hard match-up but turn 2 trinisphere is golden as I won the die roll and he played turn 1 drum and that's all.
G2 I sb out 2 chalice and 4 trini since on the draw and I mulligan one land hands into a 5 cards weak hand anyway. He only has one threat with cranial. I play kotr, he attacks putting me to 4 and blasts me for 4 before I can untap and fetch tower to prevent cranial beating.
G3 I side in all chalices and trinispeher again and turn two trini + removals wins it.
2-1
3-0
Round 4 versus Alexandre playing dazeless Jeskai GP winning list.
There isn't much he can do. These blue control match-ups are golden pairings for me.
2-0
4-0
Round 5 versus Alexandre with BURG tempo.
In my experience online it has been a good match-up. Although he plays no pyromancer but Tarmo+nemesis and 2x sb destructive revealry.
I win game one because a delver doesn't flip for two turns and he has to make bad blocks. Titania bought a lot of time.
G2 I lose after mulling to 5 and being on the draw.
G3 I keep a debatable hand, but I feel it was better than a 6 card hand : Forestx2, ancient tomb, GSZ, Trinisphere and massacre x2. I could lack black sources the whole game making this hand an effective mull to 5 but turn two daze proof trini is quite good and if I don't draw my black sources, chances are I will draw spells.
Turn two daze proof trini resolves while he plays T1 DRS T2 clique. I have a decay+fetch for DRS but he finds a third land and plays a delver he will flip playing brainstorm. That gives me windows for the massacres if I had black mana but I don't draw them nor gain life effects. I resolve a sylvan library and he puts me to one. Library only finds a fetch (swamp next card^^) and he had the force ready with mana open anyway at this point.
1-2
4-1
Conclusions :
I didn't see that much mox diamonds but I feel they are good enough and I liked the second dryad.
I didn't miss that much third baloth but I didn't face UR or burn, so I still wonder if that's the right call even if 2nd courser compensates. I also almost ran out of creatures R5G1. I played my last GSZ for DRS when he was at 3 and only had a qasali and a dryad remaining. I still had the superior winning board without it if he draws nothing too relevant though.
3 wastelands was alright even though keeping four main somehow would be nice.
The massacres' slowness in non plain match-ups I side it in (UR, elves, BURG) is not that often a problem but still is a recurring issue. I miss the good old times when I could afford my 2-3 pyroclasm/firespout split.
Only way to put them back in I think would be to cut sb wasteland for one taiga (2 mox diams helps) and getting rid of faerie macabre to put back pyroclasms. I don't think I am ready to do that but that may change one day.
EDIT : Maybe playing 2x mox diams would allow for cutting 4th forest and replacing it with 8th fetchland or 3rd bayou. Mox diam discarding fetches to save life or bilands to protect from wasteland/P2P is a thing.
EDIT2 : Worth noting that everyone in the room knew what I played since I was asking everybody if they had a Kalonian Hydra.
Last edited by Lejay; 11-23-2014 at 04:04 AM.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Since you're already running fetches, Wasteland and now KotR + Mox Diamond, have you thought about Life from the Loam in your 75?
In my limited testing, chaining Wastelands with KotR under a Trinisphere was pretty backbreaking. Loam could do the same thing.
Edit: Since you're testing the Mox Diamond + second Dryad Arbor route, I would seriously reconsider testing the NO package - Elderscale Wurm + Progenitus main, Ruric Thar in the board.
Edit2: I also continue to be dissatisfied with the solutions to Batterskull. Stoneforge often comes down unaffected by our disruption and put in Batterskull. Sure, we have hate creatures we can search for, but unless we already have a Trinisphere down, they can still force it. I'm tempted to put Krosan Grip back in.
Also just throwing some ideas in:
As far as the red splash is concerned, how does Huntmaster of the Fells compare to Baloth?
How would a Grove + Punishing Fire engine work in the deck?
I considered loam and crucible a couple times. You need to impact the board and you are already pretty low on creatures. If I would play with this kind of card I would start over and build around them (4 mox diamond, 4 Kotr with maze of ith), but I don't see enough incentives right now.
Chaining wastelands with crucible or loam is a plan that is good when you are already ahead and you have ways to tutor Kotr so I don't want to multiply these cards that much.
Problems I had with NO when I played it were first the unfixable bad draws. I tried fauna shaman and dawnstrider main for progenitus and the 15/15 wurm I had in the sb but it wasn't great. It also doesn'thelp for elderscale or terastodon. Ruric Thar would necessitate a splash, which isn't a very big problem but it adds up. Second was that NO isn't that powerful anymore on its own in the format being raced, answered via many removals for scale, Council's judgment for progenitus, or terminus for anything. I feel Titania and Hydra are NOs on themselves and even with this configuration slots are already pretty expensive.
I also would have to decrease the number of sylvan libraries since Baloths couldn't stay. I think I prefer to have my sylvan forced and resolve trini/choke with creatures than hoping my trinisphere will protect my NO.
I've defended NO a lot to Tristan at the beginning ("it's obvious with 4 trinispheres !"), but with creatures that are so powerful at 5 mana and tutorable on GSZ, we should drop the idea.
I can understand why you are disatisfied with answers to batterskull but I think I am ok with them. Generally decaying sfm and locking their mana is the plan, and locking their mana then decaying/trading a baloth for batterskull works the majority of the time also. Knight now means GSZ for 3 finds a blocker for batterskull and tarmos which is quite nice. Post sideboard it tutors the tower.
If you still don't find that enough I think 2x mox diamonds can allow for a 1 baloth 1 siege rhino split (or 1 Courser 1 Rhino 2 Baloth). I don't recommend but feel free to try.
Oh and of course they don't always have mana open, so a well timed GSZ does the job. Be patient and try to put you in the situation of keeping them off mana.
I've tried Huntmaster of the fells with my first red splash with NO/Ruric Main. It was really underwhelming.
Pfire is a decent consideration I had at some point since it answers delver. It's nice with Knight but it will be hard to play a third color with groves be it white for knight or black to handle TNN. I think Black is too important, Pfire lost some interest since TNN is a thing.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I gave a NO list with the new modifications a spin, but by further cutting creatures, you run out of targets to sacrifice. So you're right, that left me unimpressed.
I'd still love a way to filter dead cards in dead match-ups like e.g. Choke vs. non-blue decks, but I still haven't found a card that doesn't suck (like the green Spellshapers).
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