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Thread: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

  1. #21
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by wweenieking View Post
    @lejay

    I played with the deck a lot today and I felt the U/R matchup wasn't as much if a bye as I hoping for. Monastery and delver are fast. With a couple key forces and dazes they win and they'd sideboard in smash and vortex. I don't think the matchup is awful, but I wanted to crush it. Is there anything you can suggest that would help? I understand that it's the fastest of all the blue decks, but it's unfortunately the most popular. Thanks in advance for the input.
    Well sorry to disappoint but you are talking about the new defining deck in legacy and it is very solid. Name me one deck that crushes it. Or even better name me one non combo deck that has a better match-up against it than my deck. The match-up isn't a cakewalk the majority of the time as mistakes are often punished by a game loss but it is a clear favourable match-up both preboard et post sideboard even when they play smash and vortex. If your environment is all about beating UR then feel free to adjust my choices, like an additionnal thragtusk instead of the kalonian or sideboard taiga+pyroclasms (like I did at the beginning).

    Also in case you were doing something wrong here is how I would sideboard with the list I posted in the OP :
    -3 ancient tomb
    -3 sylvan library
    -1 reclamation sage (used to keep it for vortex when I didn't have decays)
    -1 Kalonian Hydra
    +1 mountain
    +1 savannah
    +1 Scavenging ooze
    +1 stingerfling spider
    +1 maelstrom pulse
    +1 toxic deluge
    +2 massacre

    I feel comfortable enough about the match-up to lose sideboard slots against it since I've cut the maelstrom pulse yesterday for a spike weaver. That makes me keep either kalonian in the dark or reclamation sage if I am sure they run several vortex.

    Spike weaver is a plan I had in mind for a while. I faced a lot elves the last two days and it is confirmed as the one popular match-up I need to improve as I am still losing 3 matches out of 5. So I rethought about all the options I dismissed again. The only "new" idea I liked was a second dawnstrider sacrificing the pulse slot but being all in on dawnstrider isn't an excellent plan when you have mass removals and your opponent is playing decay. The problem spike weaver had when I considered it is that it is too slow for the average NO when I don't lock completely. So the answer is to run both dawnstrider and weaver, and use dawnstrider to save time when you need to before GSZing into Spike weaver (which teeg would prevent unfortunately). That is the best option I have, at least until Commander2014 is legal or until I cut ruinations for specific things like several constant mists, but I like it as it can't be hit neither by reclamation sage nor decay (nor massacre).
    It's worth mentioning spike helps having no problem killing with kalonian hydra since you can fog any turn and kalonian doubles spike's counters as well.

    Without pulse I lose a card to side in against control but miracles is perhaps my best match-up. Also since I only lose against them to timely small entreats before I lock them completely, I decided I will from now on side in the spider in the match-up (lulz but I am serious).
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  2. #22
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    While playing with this deck over the weekend I had a rules question come up that you may be able to answer for me. When you have Courser and Sylvan Library in play, do you reveal all 3 cards each turn off of Sylvan, as well as, the top card of your deck while deciding if you want to put cards back? For instance your top card is revealed to start the turn, you trigger the sylvan and draw the first, then reveal the top card draw it, and so on??? Very interesting deck list btw, thank you!

  3. #23
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by DouthwrightShaman View Post
    While playing with this deck over the weekend I had a rules question come up that you may be able to answer for me. When you have Courser and Sylvan Library in play, do you reveal all 3 cards each turn off of Sylvan, as well as, the top card of your deck while deciding if you want to put cards back? For instance your top card is revealed to start the turn, you trigger the sylvan and draw the first, then reveal the top card draw it, and so on??? Very interesting deck list btw, thank you!
    Yes, you reveal each as you draw it. If you put two back, this is one action, so you reveal only what is now on top.
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  4. #24

    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Apart from G. Teeg how does this deck fight show and tell decks? And what about Reanimator? 3 DRS and an Ooze isnt much.

    Should you board in 2-3 O-rings or that white black rider?
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  5. #25
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Omnitell is an excellent match-up as trinisphere is one of the worst card for their deck. Usually unless having a second one or particular circumstances you just keep it in hand to cut their show and tell plan. Then you can either lock them with choke or kill them faster than they can combo. Rolling spoil or wasteland on a sol land can ensure the lock. You also have a reclamation sage to tutor for with GSZ or put directly into play if you drew it. Post side the krosan grips help not only post trinisphere but also without it as it's excellent with all your life gain to prevent any omni->enter or omni emrakul. Since trigger is on the stack.
    -I gain four ?
    -Sure
    -You passed priority to me, before gaining life I krosan omniscience
    Thinking players will show and tell the singleton emrakul when they have it if they know the deck so I would advise siding in the spider.

    I was considering Reanimator the toughest match-up before running deathrites. But unlike you I think they change a lot the match-up. You have good prison pieces against them, chalice in particular, but reanimator can be very fast. The first things I'd consider if I remove the ruinations+mountain (which could happen soon) are faerie macabre+wasteland or bramblecrush+wasteland.

    With the deathrites in I was thinking my next worst popular match-up to be sneak show. However I won the two matches I had against it online (not popular there). Apparently the fact their deck are unstable makes your prison elements very good. Not just chalice at one but even choke and trinisphere + land destruction do work. Spider is also golden in hand of course.

    Considering all these elements I am not interested into the cards you named to fight show and tell. Acidic slime may come back if I cut ruination though.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Tbh i don't like trinisphere. It's too slow to come down reliably fast against combo, and against aggro it come down when they usually have already a delver or a pyromancer down, at which point they can cast 1 spell per turn and be fine. Against miracle, it's mostly irrilevant unless combined with choke, and even then they just fetch 3 non-island lands and play from there.
    I think if meta switch to faster combo (elves/reanimator/snt), sphere can be better as it come down reliably by T2. I'm trying it right now (and if u run it u proabbly should -1 Baloth +1 Courser).

    Also, choke isn't our best card against miracle, Library is. Tbh i've found everyone countered my library and i never managed to stuck one down, but having one is always so good, so i upped the count to 4 main now. In general, i've found out it's the best card against so many decks. The card advantage it grant, especially if you get a Courser is insane. Vs fast aggro, it find you those removal you need to stay alive in the early game, and then stabilize the lategame by fetching you lifegaining bomb after bomb. Vs control , stucking one early means you can get +3 or +4 CA in 2 turns since you don't care at all about ur life against most of them. That's usually game.

    I also found myself tutoring Courser pretty often because of the virtual card advantage it provide whenever i'm board neutral, so i've upped the count by 1. Double courser, while rare, also gain you 3 life per fetch.

    I don't run ruinations in side, i'm trying to keep the deck BG. Running 1 kitchen for burn and 1 edict as a secondary anti-TNN/Prog/ and general anti-aggro card in their place, and i think 1 more Toxic Deluge.

    As for the mana base, i tried many variations but i still keep coming back to the original one. The balance of colorless, 2mana lands and colored lands is just perfect.

  7. #27
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    I like the idea behind this list, but I have two main concerns.

    1. Why play this over a red variation? Blood Moon/Magus seems more flexible, while still quite punishing to most blue lists.

    2. Not convinced with Rolling Spoil. Seems incredibly clunky.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Did someone say 3 Sylvan Library?

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  9. #29
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    Tbh i don't like trinisphere. It's too slow to come down reliably fast against combo, and against aggro it come down when they usually have already a delver or a pyromancer down, at which point they can cast 1 spell per turn and be fine. Against miracle, it's mostly irrilevant unless combined with choke, and even then they just fetch 3 non-island lands and play from there.
    I think if meta switch to faster combo (elves/reanimator/snt), sphere can be better as it come down reliably by T2. I'm trying it right now (and if u run it u proabbly should -1 Baloth +1 Courser).

    Also, choke isn't our best card against miracle, Library is. Tbh i've found everyone countered my library and i never managed to stuck one down, but having one is always so good, so i upped the count to 4 main now. In general, i've found out it's the best card against so many decks. The card advantage it grant, especially if you get a Courser is insane. Vs fast aggro, it find you those removal you need to stay alive in the early game, and then stabilize the lategame by fetching you lifegaining bomb after bomb. Vs control , stucking one early means you can get +3 or +4 CA in 2 turns since you don't care at all about ur life against most of them. That's usually game.

    I also found myself tutoring Courser pretty often because of the virtual card advantage it provide whenever i'm board neutral, so i've upped the count by 1. Double courser, while rare, also gain you 3 life per fetch.

    I don't run ruinations in side, i'm trying to keep the deck BG. Running 1 kitchen for burn and 1 edict as a secondary anti-TNN/Prog/ and general anti-aggro card in their place, and i think 1 more Toxic Deluge.

    As for the mana base, i tried many variations but i still keep coming back to the original one. The balance of colorless, 2mana lands and colored lands is just perfect.
    I strongly disagree on trinisphere versus sphere. Trini is at the same much more impactful and far less a problem to cast your expensive spells. Hopefully your testing will show you this pretty fast.
    It can be slow versus storm but not that much with 7 accels and 4 sol lands. Versus omnitell its cost is often irrelevant as you don't expose it to force of will.
    Running more coursers and libraries is a thing I did and liked as I said and they both run well together. But I am more interested in hearing what you cut and why. The only slot I can see going out is the hydra and it breaks my heart.
    I am currently playing without ruinations to see how it goes. Using the four slots for 2xKarakas and 2x aven mindcensor gives more game versus reanimator, sneak, elves and combo while providing the additionnal lands to replace tombs. I may cut dawnstrider for another censor if they work well but mindcensor could also become containment priest despite the drawback on GSZ. Will talk about the results.

    If someone is willing to test them I wonder how good would dust bowl and tower of the magistrate would be as sb lands that can do other things. I don't like dropping the cloudpost match-up by cutting ruinations so dust bowl might be the choice. Tower is a nice answer to the popular germ token and just saving time is all you need as you are generally the control deck versus blue control decks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SevenInTheQueue View Post
    I like the idea behind this list, but I have two main concerns.

    1. Why play this over a red variation? Blood Moon/Magus seems more flexible, while still quite punishing to most blue lists.

    2. Not convinced with Rolling Spoil. Seems incredibly clunky.
    1. I have been very explicite in the primer about why green stompy is interesting. Running GSZ and sylvan library gives you far more consistency than other colours. If I take the time to write the primer I at least ask you to read it before posting.

    2. This is a very unsurprising judgment you would expect from anyone. Anyone who hasn't play with the deck. Versatility is key.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    @Lejay: Funny deck idea! I like the "hate blue" concept behind it

    Some thoughts about it:

    Hydra can be the new Titania, Protector of Argoth (this deck has enough fetches and it also gain some stuff back against enemy Wastelands if needed and Karakas is also an option for "gg").

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    Versatility is key.
    More Cards to consider:
    Baloth Playset VS 1off Reaper of the Wilds or even Thrun which are more active against TNN, Batterskull, Gofy (i like the Baloths and the Lifegain, but i feel a Playset is too clunky and Zenith opens up more flexible solutions), White also gives access to Siege Rhino (sure without Zenith it needs 3 colors, but it is way better than a Baloth).

    With 4 Mana in mind, Winconditions can also be Planeswalkers:
    Garruk Relentless (Shots all the small creatures down, if something managed to sneak through Chalice/Sphere, and generate endless tokens, also easy to cast!)
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  11. #31
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    About Titania the fact it can be hit by karakas is a problem I was happy to avoid. It's also vulnerable to bolt. It's a to be tested card though I agree because you can gain value out of it even facing immediate removal and because we run chalice.

    I tried briefly siege rhino and the mana cost was a real pain. You want to be able to function on basics in this deck and when you can't, sol lands aren't good. I liked the idea of having reach in the deck and the 4/5 trample body, but it's not enough because I am not ready to change the manabase (savannah instead of a fetch lost me the very first game with it).
    Thrun won me a game once versus dredge and their 17/17 troll. But that was a weird game and I hated the thrun the rest of the time. You already have defense against removal and counters.
    Reaper is something I tried x4 at the beginning in the baloths slot. Didn't hate it as 4/5 is very nice versus batterskull or even goyf. I didn't like the mana you have to keep open and missed life gain a lot, but there are enough incentives to test it again as a fetchable singleton.

    Relentless is the planeswalker I am the most likely to play with domri rade (though now the red splash is a bit far from the deck). But my match-up against control being very good and those being too slow to answer efficiently delver or sfm make me skip planeswalkers entirely.
    Last edited by Lejay; 11-05-2014 at 09:42 AM.
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  12. #32

    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    How do you feel about Night of Souls' Betrayal over Rolling Spoil?

  13. #33
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by TopWizard View Post
    How do you feel about Night of Souls' Betrayal over Rolling Spoil?
    double black sucks, and it affects your creatures as well bringing them into bolt range.

    i agree that its a great card and really does work on a significant portion of the meta.

    elves, delver, pyromancer, thalia, flickerwisp, mindscensor, mom, vendillion, venser, TNN...

    what it doesn't get

    DRS, SFM, tarmogoyf, shardless agent, merfolk,

    With that in mind it still has great application but, its legendary so you cannot have 2 in play and in multiples you end up with wasted cards. If there was a way to get 2 in play or an effect you could use with night of souls betrayal to give an additional -1/-1 that might be worth considering.
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  14. #34
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Brooooo Lifeblood Hydra is SO SICK
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  15. #35
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by zulander View Post
    nonbo with GSZ tho...
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  16. #36
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    nonbo with GSZ tho...
    The list already runs a Hydra, I think this one is better. Or maybe even Genesis Hydra? Another card advantage creature is good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBFREELY
    You should all immediately fire emails at the DCI requesting the banning of Tarmogoyf and Golgari Grave-Troll.
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  17. #37

    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by zulander View Post
    The list already runs a Hydra, I think this one is better. Or maybe even Genesis Hydra? Another card advantage creature is good.
    Kalonian Hydra works with green sun zenith ...

  18. #38

    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by wweenieking View Post
    @lejay

    I played with the deck a lot today and I felt the U/R matchup wasn't as much if a bye as I hoping for. Monastery and delver are fast. With a couple key forces and dazes they win and they'd sideboard in smash and vortex. I don't think the matchup is awful, but I wanted to crush it. Is there anything you can suggest that would help? I understand that it's the fastest of all the blue decks, but it's unfortunately the most popular. Thanks in advance for the input.
    If you just want to smash Delver decks, play something mono black with a lot of edict effects and stuff like Funeral Charm and/or Darkblast. Additionally, play Gatekeeper of Malakir in that deck.

  19. #39
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post



    1. I have been very explicite in the primer about why green stompy is interesting. Running GSZ and sylvan library gives you far more consistency than other colours. If I take the time to write the primer I at least ask you to read it before posting.

    2. This is a very unsurprising judgment you would expect from anyone. Anyone who hasn't play with the deck. Versatility is key.

    I read through the primer before making the post, and it does little convincing for this as a competitive parallel to a Moon based strategy. This archetype is certainly more "interesting" than say a Werewolf/Dragon/Moggcatcher stompy shell, but I'm a bit suspect on the argument for consistency. While I can see the appeal of this list (if I didn't, I wouldn't bother) in a heavy-blue meta, Moons (and red in general) still sees more punishing to heavy blue. On paper, the strengths of this particular build do not seem to outweigh the weaknesses introduces.

    All that said, I'll be sleeving this up for a weekly soon, and will be sure to post results. While not concrete, here is the 75 I would enter with.


    4x Deathrite Shaman
    4x Obstinate Baloth
    1x Dryad Arbor
    1x Courser of Kruphix
    1x Reclamation Sage
    1x Spike Weaver
    1x Thragtusk
    1x Kalonian Hydra

    4x Green Sun's Zenith
    2x Sylvan Library

    4x Choke
    4x Trinisphere
    4x Chalice of the Void
    4x Abrupt Decay
    2x Rolling Spoil

    3x Ancient Tomb
    1x City of Traitors
    4x Verdant Catacombs
    4x Misty Rainforest
    1x Wasteland
    3x Bayou
    5x Forest
    1x Swamp

    Sideboard:

    1x Scavenging Ooze
    1x Gaddock Teeg
    1x Stingerfling Spider
    2x Karakas
    2x Savannah
    2x Aven Mindcensor
    2x Krosan Grip
    1x Maelstrom Pulse
    2x Massacre
    1x Toxic Deluge


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  20. #40
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    Re: Sylvan Plug (or whatever splashed Green stompy)

    recycle

    does this have a home in here?


    Also, I feel like this deck is lacking late game... everything except hydra dies to a batter skull...i want to say primeval titan, but that doesn't really help. Titania might be ok but I'm really struggling to find a better green creature... maybe Polukranos, World Eater
    Last edited by apple713; 11-05-2014 at 12:52 AM.
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