I agree on the SnT part, but taxing feel very much white, and not at all green. Green interacting with the stack? It feel just wrong tbh. Root maze/mana denial effects feel more green and are perfectly fine. Even a colorshifted Bloodmoon would fine perfectly green (plants that grow on everything and turn everything into forests).Originally Posted by Bongo
Well I think it's fair to say that the expectation of "how does {color} answer {game_thing}" is somewhat skewed by Blue though, right -- it isn't a secret that Old Blue Cards are the most potent in the game, and as a result anything that comes down the pike which is of a certain power level in any other color, is that much more potent in Blue. It's like the other colors are regular old families, and Blue is the Corleones. So any card with half as much potential as its equivalent in another color gets all the inherent benefits of just being Blue, and then you look at the other colors and wonder why they don't seem to have as much reach.
Having said that though, I don't think it does Eternal any good to disseminate every viable strategy amongst the top 3 colors that could play it. That just muddles the palette and creates the same problem on a lesser scale; if Red Deck Wins is the shit (not saying it is, but it's hyperbole time) and then we imagine that A Good Hatebear is printed, and over the years it ends up reprinted in,
, and
. Well that's not a new tool for 3 colors, it's a new tool for RDW. We see this all the time, this is nothing new - good decks get good cards because they are established tech. Why else is Thresh a far cry from its older self -- the fuck happened to the Red splash? Anyone remember Fledgling Dragon? Remember when that was a card we used to think was worth a damn? The hell did that guy go?
Anyway, to sit and wonder how or why Green would be able to cop the same routine as Blue in regard to getting tools to deal with All The Things -- look, that's not realistic. R&D used to be of the mindset that enough mana in a given color meant access to just about any effect -- that worked out real well for Black, too well, and even sloppy crap like Desert Twister is regarded as a mistake because it establishes precedence for Green to destroy anything it wants. So I think that fundamentally, wondering "where is Green disruption" or "how can Green play disruption" is an XY problem; instead of talking about the actual problem, one spends time and effort wondering about fixing the attempted solution. Key word being "attempted"; the attempted solution might be fundamentally incorrect or just a patch that doesn't directly address the real problem.
This simply isn't true and not everyone wants it like this. I'm not sure why you always bring this kind of reasoning, while nobody is asking for green Ancestrals and Demonic Tutors.
The game is heavily leaned towards blue domination, which is bad (and I'll say it again and again and again) for simple reasons like marketing, staples' price, gameplay, variance, etc. I would oppose this trend/status even if it would have been a matter of different color; shit, it really irks me that I must write this. It's not about hating blue, I'd wholeheartedly hate w/e else color would fuck up the game like this. Now the non-blue colors are just splashes and as such, the game would be better of with none colors at all.
You seem to argue against "let them all have everything" reasoning, but that's exactly what blue does. And it results in shitty gameplay, stupid fluff, annoying, boring, repetitive design/gaming experience. But if you feel that BrainstormDelverDazePonderTNNForce should be the zenith of what's going on in MtG, so be it, I consider it nadir and playing the game is more about the cardboard being soaked in opiates than anything else.
Disruption and CQ/CA are important elements of (interactive) games of Magic and if some colors lack these abilities, than those colors are subpar and thus unnecessary (at least for competitive play). So while you try to argue for a greater diversity of game (let those and those have that and that), in fact it's quite the opposite as nowadays standards in card design push some of the colours/strategies out of the game.
The only thing I'd listen to is the voice of casual players, who love their vanilla for
If the non-blue colours specialization is that they don't do anything, then they simply don't need to exist. And this is not about red/green dying to combo, as you seem to imply, it's about their existance in any other format than limited.
Even back in the stone age, r/g was able to interact with combo/control via say LD. Now when this tactic is deemed useless (as the cheapest usable LD starts at 4cmc), and the combo wins on one land (and control shits WoG for), it's dead.
Green was able to use the "time control" aspect, but now when cards like WOrb are unplayable in Eternal and banned for Temporal, and the creatures mostly suck, there's no way how creatures might defeat anything (don't bring Elves) as they lose before anything happens; moreover it's pretty shitty gameplay once again, as they bring hardly anything thrilling. (Remember SotF? Sadly that card must have been banned, becasue it would ruin blue's dominance over fun in game.) But yeah, that's surely about me and my irrational hate for combo...
So, to sum it up:
Wanna play strong decks? Choose blue!
Wanna play fun decks? Choose blue!
Wanna play interactive decks? Play blue!
Wanna play reliable and consistent decks? Play blue!
Such many diverse. So much colours. Wow!
Fuck, I hate this game like nothing else in world.
It's not coming, but I think a Lifeforce clone that hits blue instead of black would - at minimum - see testing as a sideboard card. There's a reason that people play Red Elemental Blast but not Blue Elemental Blast.
Wanna play strong decks? Create one!
Wanna play fun decks? The one that is funny for you!
Wanna play interactive decks? Play whatever you want!
Wanna play reliable and consistent decks? Test it until it becomes consistent!
I love playing (my decks):
- Combo: Trix, Food Chain
- Control: Parfait, Landstill
- Aggro: Infect, U/R
Bed Decks Player is right. Anyone who doesn't see it is retarded. If blue control decks feel compelled to run pyroblast simply because of the prevalence of blue in high-level environments, there is something wrong. Beb/Reb wars becoming standard in legacy mainboards? That's just silly, and this alone proves what he has to say. Not to say B/G and death&taxes are bad.
What a bunch of hyperbole. Do you guys want some mayonnaise with all that baloney? Let's think a little more rationally about the problem.
Blue has been the core of Vintage and Legacy since day one because Blue got card draw and countermagic, while other colors got less universally good ways of interacting. That's been a known quantity since the dawn of time. Where you guys are going off the reservation is in the claim that other colors lack disruption. Wizards actively prints amazing disruption for other colors. Since Lorwyn decided that creatures can be good now, they've been coming in droves, from Gaddock Teeg all the way up to Containment Priest.
If you want to speak rationally about the problem, then focus on what each color is able to do and why some tend to have better answers than others.
Blue, as we said, has the universal answer in countermagic. It also has the best cheap card draw and cheat effects South of Oath of Druids, meaning it tends to show up even in decks playing other colors.
White gets a hate for basically everything a deck can try to do to play "unfairly."
Black gets very powerful cheap discard spells, and some yard hate.
Green gets yard hate, kills enchantments and artifacts.
Red gets nothing except what it had as of Ice Age. And some burn.
If you think it's a problem that Blue is still top dog, then you'll be happy to know that Wizards is hard at work on solving the problem. Consider:
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Cavern of Souls
Supreme Verdict
Mistcutter Hydra
Notion Thief
etc etc
And that's not even counting all the old school hate like Red Elemental Blast, Choke whatever. You can safely expect more printings like this that exploit a blue metagame. Just calm down and design a deck to exploit Blue's dominance if you dislike it so strongly.
I did - It was called Maverick then WotC print WoG for W, and E.Witness but with Flash and 1 mana cheaper and 3 Mana mini progenitus to stall ground all around.
Don't forget Great Sable Stag!
It is encouraging that WotC is trying to print blue hate. But they have to be careful because forcing blue out would probably turn many players away from the game.
The problem as I see it is that there really isn't a downside to splashing blue. If green had a color shifted Blood Moon, or any color had access to more non-basic land hate (that is Legacy playable), there would be less incentive to run 3/4 color decks without basics.
I do not seedecks as a problem. OmniTell, Sneak and Show, Merfolk, Miracles, U/R Delver are all doing pretty different things and the value of certain U staples are debated based on the strategy (a
Wizards can print all the Notion Thieves, Spirit of the Labyrinths, and Great Sable Stags they want. Drawing cards > Stopping someone from drawing cards. If they want to decrease the dominance of the
This thread really wasn't supposed to be about how Blue unfairly gets effects and other colors don't. We can't make Snapcaster Red or Show and Tell Green, so what's the point of arguing about it?
The idea was to have a constructive discussion on whether or not there is room in the color pie for (possibly Legacy playable) new kind of Green disruption.
Discussing Blue's dominance is absolutely a waste of time and energy, because no matter what you feel or think, or even prove, Wizards isn't listening.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
It wasn't supposed to be, that that's what happened...
It's only a couple posts away from becoming a 'Ban Brainstorm' thread. Do we have any of those?
As to the blue bitch-fest:
Yeah the eternal game is unbalanced in favor of blue. Why? Because Wizards doesn't really care about Legacy or Vintage and historically, the game balance mistakes have all been made in blue's favor. They design blue cards for standard with little care to the eternal ramifications. And off-point, SotF wasn't banned because it "weakened" blue, but was the backbone of excruciatingly dominant combo that was difficult to interact with (at the time). It could probably come back, but once something goes on the Legacy banned list, it's pretty much relegated to purgatory for all time, regardless of how harmless/irrelevant it would be to the format.
On-topic:
Green and Red's traditional form of disruption has always been LD. But, since Wizards has decided that it isn't fun or healthy for the game, we can't have nice things.
I think rather than destroying lands, green should have access to more Plow Under type effects or restrict opponents from playing lands. I think it would also be positive To give green more proactive abilities to fight through the disruption of others. To fight blue, green should have the bulk of the "can't be countered" clauses, shroud, hex proof, maybe an ability that says the only zone the creature can go besides the battlefield is the GY, give green more Flash and tie it to the flavor of ambushing creatures(spiders, cats, snakes). To fight black green could have more "indestructible" or a little more Pro-B. Green could also limit certain gameplay aspects to coincide with it's naturalistic tendencies:
Things like:
GG Creature- 2/2: Flash, When ~ etb, put target land on top of it's owners library.
G Enchantment - Players may only play one artifact, one land, and one instant or sorcery per turn.
GG - Instant, put a land from your hand into play, creatures you own gain Flash until EOT
G - Sorcery, destroy target land, search that land's controller's library for a land and put it on the battlefield tapped.
GG - Sorcery, You may play an additional land this turn. Opponent's can't play lands on their next turn.
GG - 2/2, When ~ etb, search your library for an aura w/ cmc 3 or less and attach it to a permanent you control
GG1 - 3/4, Flash, when ~ etb, it may fight a creature or planes walker you don't control.
Then someone will suggest that Balance is a fair card and should be unbanned, I rip the small amount of hair out of my head and quit posting in my own thread. Can we try to avoid that?It wasn't supposed to be, that that's what happened...
It's only a couple posts away from becoming another 'Ban Brainstorm' thread.
Here's an idea, what if Green got something that punished opponents for playing noncreature spells somehow? Then again, Heartwood Storyteller isn't exactly good, so maybe that's another dead avenue.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
The problem with those types of cards is that they need to be cheap enough to be effective (cmc<3) and not splashable. Which leaves us with GG being the only relevant mana-cost. It probably also needs to be an instant or have flash.Then someone will suggest that Balance is a fair card and should be unbanned, I rip the small amount of hair out of my head and quit posting in my own thread. Can we try to avoid that?
Here's an idea, what if Green got something that punished opponents for playing noncreature spells somehow? Then again, Heartwood Storyteller isn't exactly good, so maybe that's another dead avenue.
One of the things WotC hasn't tried yet that might work well to resolve some of the Color Pie issues is a keyword related to spell composition in a list.
Example: Purity - This spell may not be played in a list that has fewer than 30 spells that share a color with it.
This would allow WotC to print single mana spells of significant power that would not be splashable into the "best cards" lists.
So now you have the possibility of Deadly Mongoose
Deadly Confidant
Deadly Lavamancer
Storyteller is indicative of the right mindset, but it rewards the Green player with more "non-interactive" Green cards if we're talking about mono-Green.Then someone will suggest that Balance is a fair card and should be unbanned, I rip the small amount of hair out of my head and quit posting in my own thread. Can we try to avoid that?
Here's an idea, what if Green got something that punished opponents for playing noncreature spells somehow? Then again, Heartwood Storyteller isn't exactly good, so maybe that's another dead avenue.
As long as we're trying not to Shitty Card Create but some folks are doing it anyway, if it weren't for Tarmogoyf eating up this real estate I bet Fight could next-level and get something like
Bash Rinse Repeat
Sorcery
Choose one:
- Target creature you control fights another target creature.
- Destroy target nonland permanent if its converted mana cost is less than the power of target creature you control. That permanent deals damage to that creature equal to its converted mana cost.
"There's probably a better wording for this, but whatever." - Some Guy, Of the Achievement Unlocked
If Green is going to take the route of "might makes right" then it should be able to leverage its immense dudes against the opponent's resources. I could see an argument for a 7/7 being able to (literally) trample over a stupid artifact, right?
Apart from all this - it might be a better conversation to have if someone really ran a fine-toothed comb through all the attempted Green 'disruptive' mechanics and took a fresh look at them. Most people don't know about Dosan or Heartwood Storyteller with the same immediacy as they would many other Green cards. New tech gets found in old jank from time to time, it's just a matter of seeing if a newer printing or newer deck gives it a chance to shine again.
Chains of Nature
Enchantment 1G
Whenever player cast non-creature spell, that player put card from his/her hand on top of its owner library.
Probably little too strong, probably 2G would be more balanced, but on the other hand it could be good enough to stop most cantriping shells in Green color, with a Green effect. Don't forget the effect is symmetrical.
Honestly, hate-things that use convoke would also be in flavor, as would things that affect opponents based on land and/or creature count.
Oath of Growth - G
Enchantment
At the beginning of each player's upkeep; if they control a number of lands less than each opponent, that player exiles cards from the top of their library until they exile a Land card. Shuffle all non-land cards exiled this way into that player's library and place all land cards exiled this way on top.
Boom. Combo decks and Tempo decks have an obnoxious "You draw a land each turn" enchantment while non-tempo decks can draw their lands. This disrupts combo by "accidentally" controlling their draws, encourages green players to play lands, and doesn't seem actively unfun in newer formats. It disrupts tempo doubly by messing with LD and giving them terrible draws.
It also beats up on LD without making it garbage and opens up the possibility of LD based control decks that win, not through LD, but through draw manipulation. It also beefs up one of the worst effects in the game (rampant growth effects.)
Choking Vines 2G
Enchantment
Convoke
At the end of each player's turn, that player puts a 1/1 Green Vine creature token into play "At the beginning of your upkeep choose an untapped land you control. That land becomes tapped." under under an opponent's control.
When ~ leaves the battlefield, exile all Vine creatures.
Encourages the game to end so it's not a true prison. Encourages creature combat. Puts creatures into play. Instants may still be played and it plays really well with other convoke cards and itself. Your opponent also wins if you don't use the effect properly. It even hoses Blue slightly more than other colors. Amazing.
I remember a tier 2-ish deck from Kamigawa-Ravnica standard that was monogreen control. I remember it because it was such a strange idea to have a green control build. Take a guess what the deck was like. I can wait.
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OK, got it?
It was little more than Umezawa's Jitte and a bunch of creatures. You guessed that, right?
Green does not do disruption. It is not in its flavor to do it. We should not be wishing it could. Today's disruption is the purview black and blue with white making a strong showing as "sorta". Green used to have disruption. Stunted Growth is unlikely to get done again any time soon. It was deemed out of flavor a decade ago. Ice Storm was green's first, best, and last cheap/proactive disruption. And we all know where land destruction has gone.
Green does creatures. Durable, straight-up aggro creatures. It CAN have abilities tacked onto creatures. Some may even be useful, but most aren't - like nearly every white creature ever printed before 2006. Since wotc seems to be unwilling to go beyond Tarmogoyf in terms of raw power, green is going to need a face lift. As it is, blue gets the best aggro critters and white gets the best disruption critters, so green is out of luck. Very well. What abilities can green have? Well, the bar got raised with Reclamation Sage. That is a good thing. I think that something like a Multani's Acolyte without the echo is exactly what green needs to look like in the coming years. There is not real danger of it being too good. Just don't make it an elf. As it is now, green gets plenty of love. It is just that it only does one thing well - accelerate into fat. It all ends up in THE green deck which we call Elves!
MUST.MAKE.CARDS.
But we want green disruption. OK. I shall try?
Natural Thingie
When you cast Natural Thingie, tap target land. That land does not untap as normal during its controller's next untap step.
2/2
-------
Poo on You
Creature - monkey
Haste
When Poo on You enters the battlefield, you can not lose the game until the end of your next turn. If Poo on You would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.
3/2
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
30 cards Is bit to many tbh.One of the things WotC hasn't tried yet that might work well to resolve some of the Color Pie issues is a keyword related to spell composition in a list.
Example: Purity - This spell may not be played in a list that has fewer than 30 spells that share a color with it.
This would allow WotC to print single mana spells of significant power that would not be splashable into the "best cards" lists.
So now you have the possibility of Deadly Mongoose
Deadly Confidant
Deadly Lavamancer
Is there even a single monocolored hatebear in green? Pretty much only disruption green has in its pool is land destruction, artifact and enchantment hate. Absured crazy monogreen permanents / Engine cards like Fastbond, Oath of Druids, Survival of the fittest, Birthing Pod, and thoes arent printed that often, lucky for us.
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