[Deck] Turbo Depths

[lavafrogg]

Went 2-0 against TES. Game 1 I kept a turn 4 win that was just good enough against 12 goblins turn 2 and game 2 he mulled to 5 and was paced by turn 1 thoughtsieze turn 2 dark Confidant.

Really happy I got through a storm matchup as I have zero sideboard for it outside generic graveyard hate.

[Mr. Safety]

Went 2-0 against TES. Game 1 I kept a turn 4 win that was just good enough against 12 goblins turn 2 and game 2 he mulled to 5 and was paced by turn 1 thoughtsieze turn 2 dark Confidant.

Really happy I got through a storm matchup as I have zero sideboard for it outside generic graveyard hate.

With 8 targeted discard, and a fairly fast combo yourself, this shouldn't be a terrible matchup, probably about even.

[lavafrogg]

With 8 targeted discard, and a fairly fast combo yourself, this shouldn't be a terrible matchup, probably about even.

We have tested the matchup a bunch and I don’t like how it usually plays out. I feel like my opponent had a suboptimal list and gave me percentage points that way.

In the slow Depths list I dont think you can make meaningful headway in improving the matchup that wouldn’t slow us down just as much.

Also: Been doing tons of testing: tweaked the mainboard cards a little (-1 sylvan scrying +1 DC) and want to remove the 2 Rites from the board. I can imagine bringing in something against DnT and something against Dragon Stompy... how do we feel about Pernicious Deed or ratchet bomb?

I'm kind of a fan of ratchet bomb as it can be cast post blood moon...

[Quentin Coldman]

Anyone tried some cheap manabase for turbo or slow depths?

I always play 4 Blooming Marsh and 2 Llanowar Wastes and 0 Fetchies in the Turbo version and I works very well for me. Yesterday I made first place of 69 players and last month third place of 260 players and in february third place of 103 players. I really see no reason to buy Bayou for this deck that's why I sold mine, never lost a game because of the manabase.

[malekith]

I always play 4 Blooming Marsh and 2 Llanowar Wastes and 0 Fetchies in the Turbo version and I works very well for me. Yesterday I made first place of 69 players and last month third place of 260 players and in february third place of 103 players. I really see no reason to buy Bayou for this deck that's why I sold mine, never lost a game because of the manabase.

Playing Blooming Marsh could be good to avoid Submerge if you expected It in your meta, but otherwise Bayou is perfect



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[Mr. Safety]

Has anyone, Turbo or Slow, tried Collective Brutality? It seems to be really good at providing value. It can attack their hand (something this deck does quite well) and can kill blockers/annoying small creatures (Baleful Strix/Delver mostly, but also DRS, Young Pyro.)

[theMonster]

Has anyone, Turbo or Slow, tried Collective Brutality? It seems to be really good at providing value. It can attack their hand (something this deck does quite well) and can kill blockers/annoying small creatures (Baleful Strix/Delver mostly, but also DRS, Young Pyro.)

I play 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Duress, and 1 Brutality in my Turbo build and have liked it a lot. It gets boarded out a fair bit, but the utility has been nice in game 1. You rarely escalate it, but I've definitely done so, most notably killing a Strix and draining to get my opponent with an active Deathrite below 20. Since I don't run any Decays maindeck, I've found it to be a nice hedge. I wouldn't play more than one copy, though, as it's a bit clunky and doesn't nab everything.

[solnox]

I played 1 brutality in the sideboard. It was there for 2 weeks.

[caseyc]

I play 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Duress, and 1 Brutality in my Turbo build and have liked it a lot. It gets boarded out a fair bit, but the utility has been nice in game 1. You rarely escalate it, but I've definitely done so, most notably killing a Strix and draining to get my opponent with an active Deathrite below 20. Since I don't run any Decays maindeck, I've found it to be a nice hedge. I wouldn't play more than one copy, though, as it's a bit clunky and doesn't nab everything.

I play 4x Thoughtseize, 2x Duress, 1x Collective Brutality, 2x Gitaxian Probe main, and an additional Collective Brutality in the SB

[DNSolver]

A top 8 for me at the local Leaving a Legacy $3k tournament today.

List:
4 Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Pithing Needle
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Depths
4 Stage
3 Urborg
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void (didn't ever use these)
4 Abrupt Decay (came in all the time)
2 Sylvan Library
1 Karakas
2 Damping Sphere
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sphere of Resistance

Swiss:
Wins vs TES, Grixis Delver, Punishing Dack Pile, Elves x2, Pox
Loss vs Merfolk (Harbinger G1, mull to 4 G2)

Quarterfinals loss to Merfolk (same player)

Some of you may have seen me trying out a few configurations of the BG turbo list online as well. Leylines have been mediocre due to how narrow they are, as expected. I think they may be unnecessary, as I believe the Reanimator matchup is favorable without them, with 2 Surgicals in the board like before. The 2/1/1 split of the artifact-based taxing hate vs storm mattered vs TES when they had Echoing Truth.

Moving forward, the Leylines are the weak link in the sideboard and I am interested in trying sideboard Confidants over Libraries, though I have preferred Library in the past. I've been considering playing Pernicious Deed to have more action against Red Stompy. Other options are EE, Nev Disk, and Ratchet Bomb (these are options I have collected from this thread and the Slow Depths thread). I think Deed hits too many of our own cards in other matchups where Decay shines. I am more interested in trying EE. Karakas is very narrow but I think necessary for the mirror and Sneak and Show.

New testing sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Damping Sphere
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Karakas
4 Dark Confidant or other necessary cards as needed

[DNSolver]

A thought occurred to me this morning about playing Gitaxian Probe in this deck to get perfect information. I decided to run some math.

Things that I consider valuable in this deck:

1) Having a large percentage to topdeck a land search or the missing combo piece.
2) Having a turn 1 discard spell in the dark (which would invalidate the Git Probe anyway)
3) Being able to search out Ghost Quarter / Steppe / Dryad Arbor to invalidate opponent's hate.

The cuts for Git Probe would probably end up being some combination of one discard spell, one land search, 1-2 safekeepers, the 4th needle I'm playing, or a land. I ran some math to find out the consequences of playing probe, assuming cutting 2 safekeepers, a land, and either a land search or a discard spell for 4 probes:

Cutting a discard spell: The chance of having between 1-3 discard spells decreases by 2.3% in opening 7 or after a mull to 6.

Cutting a land search: The chance of drawing a land search or the land/hexmage you're looking for actually *increases or stays within 0.5%* within 1,2, or 3 draws upon adding 4 probes, because your deck size decreases enough to counteract going down on actual outs. For GQ/Steppe outs, the chance to draw a land search or the land itself decreases by 0.2-0.4% in 1-3 draws upon adding Probes.

Based on these results, the information gained from Probe must gain you ~3% odds for me to value it. To be considered.

Edit: I will show my spreadsheet and detailed results next time I stream or record a video when I get a chance. In the meantime, people can feel free to check my math.

[lavafrogg]

A top 8 for me at the local Leaving a Legacy $3k tournament today.

List:
4 Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Pithing Needle
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Depths
4 Stage
3 Urborg
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void (didn't ever use these)
4 Abrupt Decay (came in all the time)
2 Sylvan Library
1 Karakas
2 Damping Sphere
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sphere of Resistance

Swiss:
Wins vs TES, Grixis Delver, Punishing Dack Pile, Elves x2, Pox
Loss vs Merfolk (Harbinger G1, mull to 4 G2)

Quarterfinals loss to Merfolk (same player)

Some of you may have seen me trying out a few configurations of the BG turbo list online as well. Leylines have been mediocre due to how narrow they are, as expected. I think they may be unnecessary, as I believe the Reanimator matchup is favorable without them, with 2 Surgicals in the board like before. The 2/1/1 split of the artifact-based taxing hate vs storm mattered vs TES when they had Echoing Truth.

Moving forward, the Leylines are the weak link in the sideboard and I am interested in trying sideboard Confidants over Libraries, though I have preferred Library in the past. I've been considering playing Pernicious Deed to have more action against Red Stompy. Other options are EE, Nev Disk, and Ratchet Bomb (these are options I have collected from this thread and the Slow Depths thread). I think Deed hits too many of our own cards in other matchups where Decay shines. I am more interested in trying EE. Karakas is very narrow but I think necessary for the mirror and Sneak and Show.

New testing sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Damping Sphere
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Karakas
4 Dark Confidant or other necessary cards as needed

The ratchet bomb is gas, I am on the slow list and considering going to 2 of them in addition to the usual sweeper package but am not quite sure yet. Still testing in weeklies and whatnot.

[DNSolver]

What a good meme. As soon as I start calculating possibilities for Probe, it gets banned.

Decks I think get worse from DRS + Probe:

Storm
Grixis Delver
UR Delver
4-color control

Decks I think get better:

Lands
Death and Taxes
Miracles
Stoneblade
Reanimator
Sneak and Show

Notably three favorable matchups will be less played, and four matchups that are unfavorable or even become better. Just an outset shot. I'm not going to modify my list at all based on these changes yet.

[Jax-]

I like Surgical more than LotV honestly.

I think that we can safetly cut locks if Storm is slower, Grip is amazing vs Sneak, white Leyline, Omniscience, Counterbalance, most Moon Stompy hate (I think Moon Stompy just lost some of appeal without 3C/4C decks tho) and a lot of stuff in general.

I dunno if Dryad/Mishra is necessary anymore. MD Karakas is huge.

[Darkgobs]

Seems that the "Slow Depths" list is in a bad spot without DRS, isn't it?

I'm glad I had already decided to go back to the pure combo-list.

[jubeininja69]

Slow depths doesn't need DRS. Bobs all day.

[Mr. Safety]

Seems that the "Slow Depths" list is in a bad spot without DRS, isn't it?

I'm glad I had already decided to go back to the pure combo-list.

Yes. It has to go back to another form of mana acceleration that doesn't double as threat, so it naturally will just become turbo + confidant, which is already a recognized variant. Maindeck decay doesn't make sense when miracles/d&t are getting better in the format; it needs 4x needle (probably) and a faster fundamental turn. Maybe even a 2nd ghost quarter.

Others may think otherwise, but I think slow depths is off the table without deathrite. It was the primary reason for going in that direction, the lynchpin.

[ZeusBolt]

Yes. It has to go back to another form of mana acceleration that doesn't double as threat, so it naturally will just become turbo + confidant, which is already a recognized variant. Maindeck decay doesn't make sense when miracles/d&t are getting better in the format; it needs 4x needle (probably) and a faster fundamental turn. Maybe even a 2nd ghost quarter.

Others may think otherwise, but I think slow depths is off the table without deathrite. It was the primary reason for going in that direction, the lynchpin.

All-in combo should be the way to go for now. You are looking at a meta where, for at least the next couple months, fast combos are going to be king. "Slow-Depths" can't answer that very well. I don't think storm gets much worse, in fact, I think they have lost maybe a half-turn, depending on how they replace probe.

[caseyc]

So the ban happened. I'm playing in the SCG Worcester Team Open in the Legacy seat in a week and a half--and am very curious what that meta will look like--and how good (or bad) Depths will be moving forward. In this post, I am going to try to briefly describe my thoughts about where the meta is going in relation to our deck, and what some of the adjustments I will make in the short term until the new meta becomes more clear. So, Depths definitely takes a blow by the banning of DRS and Probe, primarily because our bread and butter was having a great match-up against Grixis Delver and Czech Pile. Also, those decks pushed DnT to the sidelines of the meta, which was great for us, because that match-up is pretty rough. I still think the Depths archetype is inherently strong, and time will tell what position Depths will have in the meta moving forward. As for SCG Worcester coming up--I am expecting to see a large increase of UB Reanimator and RUG Delver, as well as likely more DnT, Miracles, and Sneak n Show. My list was already geared toward beating Miracles and DnT--and I had planned to shift my SB flex slot to aim at Moon Stompy (either an additiona Decay or try out Ratchet Bomb).

There are 3 cards in my maindeck that are leaving the deck: 2x Gitaxian Probe and 1x Dryad Arbor. Probe, for obvious reasons. Dryad arbor because it was specifically for Diabolic Edict, which I think will see significantly less play.

Those three cards I am planning on replacing with: 1x Llanowar Wastes, 1x Duress, and the 2nd Collective Brutality that was previously in the SB. (for a total of 9 discard spells)

SB slots:

Current:
1x Karakas
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Ground Seal
1x Collective Brutality
2x Sylvan Library
3x Rite of Consumption
1x Krosan Grip
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Murderous Cut

Planning for SCG Worcester:

1x Karakas
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2x Sylvan Library
3x Rite of Consumption
1x Krosan Grip
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Faerie Macabre

I'd like to fit a Relic of Progenitus in there, but not sure where. I think Relic would be good as GY hate, and against RUG Delver. Maybe I could move one Sylvan Libraries main instead of one of the additional discard spells. With a possible increase of Swords to Plowshares, a 3rd Safekeeper might be worth considering. But that will probably be a decision based on how the meta develops. Thoughts?

[adrieng]

With the return or rug delver I think it is time to be submerge proof again. this ban is really good news cause the deck loses to grixis delver if well played rug delver is easier
they have a slower clock.

Here is what I'll be playing :


// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 26 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Khalni Garden
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Llanowar Wastes

// 14 Sorcery
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Seal of Primordium

// 5 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Golgari Charm

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Maze of Ith

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge