[Deck] Turbo Depths

[solnox]

Bog is REALLY good vs miracles. moreso now with AK in their decks. Snapcaster is a huge reason why that deck is so good and shutting off CA and snap is worth a lost.

[Jorge Le Douche]

In my opinion, the best part about having Maze of Ith in your deck is the ability to use a random otherwise useless land search spell to completely stonewall your opponents' clock. If you have played the deck, you have had the experience of chump blocking with Safekeeper, Bob, or Hexmage while Gurmag Angler/Death's Shadow/... continues attacking. Eventually, you die. Maze of Ith buys a LOT of time in those types of situations. And don't get me started on Thespian's Staging your own Maze of Ith. With Urborg in play. Good luck to the Delver player who wants to fight through that.

Maze of Ith is strong against Delver, Eldrazi, and other aggressive decks. It either buys you lots of time or eats a Wasteland, which is fine, because they are not wasting Dark Depths.

But I have noticed that the top finishing slow-depths lists (including David Long) have cut Maze of Ith, even from the sideboard. I'm not saying that is correct, but it seems to be current fad. Perhaps even the consensus.

[Mr. Safety]

To put my opinion in one sentence: i understand there are clever ways to interact, but we're a combo deck, isn't it better to just try and kill them?

We're talking about Lands tricks to grind out games, which is fine, but i really feel that trying to go punch-for-punch like a fair deck feels like playing to not lose rather than to win. I understand the mox diamond plan is to slowly grind, but i'm on the turbo plan. Its definitely a different approach.

[ryscott85]

Does wasteland just cause this deck to autolose game ones often? I’m new to this deck and i’ve been playtesting it recently. There are an unfortunate amount of times where I have the combo of stage and Dd, but draw no heXmage and am staring at a hand of thoughtseize and do-nothing lands. Even seeing a wasteland in hand feels bad with oik and thoughtseize (I’m assuming that’s why a lot of ppl play hymn, but that seems sketchy too early in the game when they have a full hand). Looking at decklists, nearly none of the top performing ones play needle main and a lot of them play one or none in the side. Is this deck just banking on the top decks ( miricles, Grixis control, big eldrazi, ant, etc..) just not playing with them? I know that I must be missing something..

[Jax-]

You can tutor for your own wasteland/ghost quarter and force their wasteland activation and copy your depths with stage/hexmage in response.
You can copy their wasteland in their EoT with your stage and do the same if you have another stage or hexmage in hand/play.
You can name wasteland with Needle obviously.
Plenty of outs tbh.

My favorite is Stifling their wasteland tho.

[Mr. Safety]

Does wasteland just cause this deck to autolose game ones often? I’m new to this deck and i’ve been playtesting it recently. There are an unfortunate amount of times where I have the combo of stage and Dd, but draw no heXmage and am staring at a hand of thoughtseize and do-nothing lands. Even seeing a wasteland in hand feels bad with oik and thoughtseize (I’m assuming that’s why a lot of ppl play hymn, but that seems sketchy too early in the game when they have a full hand). Looking at decklists, nearly none of the top performing ones play needle main and a lot of them play one or none in the side. Is this deck just banking on the top decks ( miricles, Grixis control, big eldrazi, ant, etc..) just not playing with them? I know that I must be missing something..

Short answer: no, not even close.

The difference is Life from the Loam and playing their own Wastelands. Mox Diamond lists aggressively Wasteland opposing Wastelands so they can get it out of the way to combo. If an opponent is aggressively Waste-ing their non-basic, non-combo lands it opens up the combo or they can draw into Loam (or just tutor for combo pieces after losing them.) One of the biggest strengths of Depths, and Lands as well, is the level of redundancy. Older lists with maindeck Pithing Needle name Wasteland better than 75% of the time.

One thing that really helps you get around the common pitfalls of the deck is practice. Seriously, I've seen a steady upward trend of wins with this deck after playing it for the past 6 months as my primary Legacy deck. I'm still learning new lines of play, which is actually really refreshing for a combo deck. It's really held my attention. I'm not saying it isn't an ape-ish A +B combo deck, it is, but finding a way to play around different strategies is quite the mental exercise.

From the OP:

I consider this deck to be a very strong choice because it is very resilient to traditional combo hate like counterspells and discard. Additionally it has the speed to keep up with other combo decks, and the versatility to adapt to a changing meta. Due to the limited number of threats the deck is concerned about it can focus on eliminating those in the main deck while maintaining consistency.

[ryscott85]

Short answer: no, not even close.

The difference is Life from the Loam and playing their own Wastelands. Mox Diamond lists aggressively Wasteland opposing Wastelands so they can get it out of the way to combo. If an opponent is aggressively Waste-ing their non-basic, non-combo lands it opens up the combo or they can draw into Loam (or just tutor for combo pieces after losing them.) One of the biggest strengths of Depths, and Lands as well, is the level of redundancy. Older lists with maindeck Pithing Needle name Wasteland better than 75% of the time.

One thing that really helps you get around the common pitfalls of the deck is practice. Seriously, I've seen a steady upward trend of wins with this deck after playing it for the past 6 months as my primary Legacy deck. I'm still learning new lines of play, which is actually really refreshing for a combo deck. It's really held my attention. I'm not saying it isn't an ape-ish A +B combo deck, it is, but finding a way to play around different strategies is quite the mental exercise.

From the OP:

Maybe I’m just drawing poorly and am used to brainstorm decks/lands multiple tutors to dig me out if situations. Could you or someone explain why many top deck forego or play only 1 needle in the 75? I still don’t understand why that wouldn’t be main or at least a2-3 of in the side? Also as stated earlier, is hymn the go to over with thoughtseize over oik now since it also hits lands?

[Mr. Safety]

Maybe I’m just drawing poorly and am used to brainstorm decks/lands multiple tutors to dig me out if situations. Could you or someone explain why many top deck forego or play only 1 needle in the 75? I still don’t understand why that wouldn’t be main or at least a2-3 of in the side? Also as stated earlier, is hymn the go to over with thoughtseize over oik now since it also hits lands?

Probably the best place to start is to post your list, that way every response can be within context.

[malekith]

Two different DARK DEPTHS lists doing TOP8 at this LEGACY CHALLENGE MTGO tournament this week:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nge-2018-12-17

both decklists plays the combo with 4xDD and 4xThespian in the main, but...

the 8th was more or less a "classic Turbo" decklist with Petals and ESGs

the 2nd played with moxes and Bobs



In the quarterfinals both lists played one against each other. not sure if is possible to find footage or something...

[Jorge Le Douche]

Maybe I’m just drawing poorly and am used to brainstorm decks/lands multiple tutors to dig me out if situations. Could you or someone explain why many top deck forego or play only 1 needle in the 75? I still don’t understand why that wouldn’t be main or at least a2-3 of in the side? Also as stated earlier, is hymn the go to over with thoughtseize over oik now since it also hits lands?

Almost every Dark Depths list has either Pithing Needle or Wasteland. Both are aimed at the same card from your opponent: Wasteland.

In the Slower Depths lists, Wasteland replaces Pithing Needle. Basically, a Wasteland can take out a single opposing Wasteland in the same way that a Pithing Needle would. Wasteland also answers some of the same cards that Pithing Needle is aimed at: Karakas, Maze of Ith. Most importantly, Wasteland is just a better Magic card than Pithing Needle. With some lists now adopting Life from the Loam, Wasteland only gets better.

As a side benefit, a Wasteland can be tutored for using all the land tutors, while a Pithing Needle cannot. (This is not as important as you might think, because Pithing Needle lists still run Ghost Quarter as a tutor target to achieve the same benefit).

To head off the contrarians a bit, it is true that 1 Pithing Needle answers 2 Wastelands, while 1 Wasteland does not. And Pithing Needle has some other applications (Sneak Attack, Metalworker, Aether Vial, Jace, ...)

But the bottom line is that many, especially those running Mox Diamond and maybe even Life from the Loam, have decided that Wasteland is worth the slot over Pithing Needle.

The OP (ryscott85) writes that he is

used to brainstorm decks/lands multiple tutors to dig me out if situations.

For the most part, Dark Depths uses lands to get you out of situations. And Dark Depths has a plethora of straight up tutors for lands, one of which (Crop Rotation) tutors the damn card straight into play. At instant speed. Crop Rotation is insane. Anyway, tutoring for your answer is better than trying to brainstorm or ponder your way into it. The plethora of land tutors is really what makes Dark Depths so good, and shockingly consistent as well as resilient for a non-blue combo deck. That, and a combo that often does not require casting a spell.

[Jorge Le Douche]

To put my opinion in one sentence: i understand there are clever ways to interact, but we're a combo deck, isn't it better to just try and kill them?

We're talking about Lands tricks to grind out games, which is fine, but i really feel that trying to go punch-for-punch like a fair deck feels like playing to not lose rather than to win. I understand the mox diamond plan is to slowly grind, but i'm on the turbo plan. Its definitely a different approach.

For sure I would not play Maze of Ith in a turbo Lotus Petal build.

[scapiander]

is there a discord channel?

[Jax-]

And Pithing Needle has some other applications (Sneak Attack, Metalworker, Aether Vial, Jace, ...)

Definetely not Metalworker.

[Mr. Safety]

Wasteland is just a bettet Magic card than Pithing Needle.

No it isn't. It's less conditional, but that's because it is narrower. You could make an argument that in this particular application it is better, but overall Needle has more raw power. Needle is a lot like Cabal Therapy: it rewards experience and format knowledge, which in turn allows you to outplay your opponents.

[Mr. Safety]

Pretty quiet in here...I missed a chance to play this at a recent 1K, but I know there will be another 1K in the spring, probably in April. If I don't get my Tundras before then I'll be playing ESG's and Lotus Petals into a 20/20. I'm still sold on the Therapies (but I dropped down to 2 copies so I could squeeze in Abrupt Decay main.)

So specifically, is anyone still on Petal/ESG? How many Needles are you playing? What is the configuration you're on? I'd like to keep this deck tuned-up, and I'm not against making changes.

[Lav Dafka]

i have got a 5-0 on mtgo here :https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...bg-64945#paper had also a 3-2 and 4-1
can't remember what i beat but it was good decks.
though I dont have all the cards I want on mtgo especially mindbreak trap toxic deluge and surgical
I went 4-1 last week end on paper lost to moon stompy 1-2 beat human 2-1 grixis control 2-0 death and taxes 2-1 and burn 2-0.

I suggest you give more credit to khalni garden +therapy and 4 off library instead of confidant



// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 27 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
3 Khalni Garden
4 Llanowar Wastes

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 9 Instant
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

And this deck even made it into a Saffron Olive instant deck tech. Saffron spike to follow? Maybe a few more Legacy players? https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...-depths-legacy

[Fastbond]

I am new to Legacy and playing the format for two weeks with Depths right now. So maybe I am not enlightened to see it, but for what reasons should I play a suboptimal list with Khalni Garden, Cabal Therapy and 4 Library without any Fetches??? Khalni Garden is bad on it`s own, because it cames in tapped in a deck with a greedy manabase and want to have mana every turn, especally in the first for landing a Turn 1 Bob or Library. Therapy on it`s own is a hit or miss. Seems not great in a combo deck, where you want to disrupt selected pieces of opponents hand. Also I think there is no need to generate further CA, you alreaddy can do it over Bob and Library. 4 Thoughtseizes + 4 Inquisition or a 2/2 split with Duress is really effective discard suit at the moment. It can pick all problematic cards you don`t want to see. 4 Librarys are way to much maybe an additional is worth it. I play 3 Bob + 2 Library right now and I am fine with it. But Library without any fetchland is just bad! I have heared that cantrips with fetches are pretty good in Legacy And the only real reason for deciding to play Blooming Marsh + painland can only be budget reasons.

For the info:

I am on solnox`s list with a few minor changes right now and it feels pretty strong and maybe can considered to be the optimal list right now. I would recommend it to every new Depths player as a starting point. I am new to the deck and got two 5:0 at my local. I know locals can`t be counted as a real sample size, but when you have a look at all the Top 8 lists on tcdecks, or mtgtop 8 you will not face any Khalni Garden list without that one exception.

Sorry if my post was a bit salty. It never was my intention to offend someone. I really enjoy Depths deck and wanted to share my opinion on that really questionable list.

[adrieng]

got an other 5-0 on mtgo list will be published soon hopefully beating death and taxes merfolk, gobelin, storm and the antiquies war.
changed the mana confluence into blooming marsh added 2 toxic deluge in side and the 3 mindbreak trap. Close to optmal list without the surgicals

[schweinefettmann]

I am new to Legacy and playing the format for two weeks with Depths right now. So maybe I am not enlightened to see it, but for what reasons should I play a suboptimal list with Khalni Garden, Cabal Therapy and 4 Library without any Fetches??? Khalni Garden is bad on it`s own, because it cames in tapped in a deck with a greedy manabase and want to have mana every turn, especally in the first for landing a Turn 1 Bob or Library. Therapy on it`s own is a hit or miss. Seems not great in a combo deck, where you want to disrupt selected pieces of opponents hand. Also I think there is no need to generate further CA, you alreaddy can do it over Bob and Library. 4 Thoughtseizes + 4 Inquisition or a 2/2 split with Duress is really effective discard suit at the moment. It can pick all problematic cards you don`t want to see. 4 Librarys are way to much maybe an additional is worth it. I play 3 Bob + 2 Library right now and I am fine with it. But Library without any fetchland is just bad! I have heared that cantrips with fetches are pretty good in Legacy And the only real reason for deciding to play Blooming Marsh + painland can only be budget reasons.

For the info:

I am on solnox`s list with a few minor changes right now and it feels pretty strong and maybe can considered to be the optimal list right now. I would recommend it to every new Depths player as a starting point. I am new to the deck and got two 5:0 at my local. I know locals can`t be counted as a real sample size, but when you have a look at all the Top 8 lists on tcdecks, or mtgtop 8 you will not face any Khalni Garden list without that one exception.

Sorry if my post was a bit salty. It never was my intention to offend someone. I really enjoy Depths deck and wanted to share my opinion on that really questionable list.

I’m no lands player, but the khaki garden is for an instant speed blocker, the library is simply for card advantage in combination with other things like crop rotation, sylvan scrying.

therapys can 2,3 for half (ie you can set them back a card after the initial cast, then sac the saproling token or whatever to flashback nuke their hand for whatever 2 or 3 of they have/card that’d lead to pain for you). Also, if you name say echoing truth or stifle or whatever you know would hurt you most at that time, and they don’t have it, you’re golden! Sure it’s a feel bad, but so what if they’re sitting on 3 brainstorms when you can hexmage a marit lage?

I think these sound more like personal approaches to the build. If it doesn’t work to your style, go with your gut. I play a pretty ‘subpar’ build of solidarity, but I can work it pretty well regardless.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mr. Safety]

Uber-budget version was recently teched on mtggoldfish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1DqfUlIl40

The price tag is only about $500, which is pushing burn territory as far as affordability goes. It's unfortunate that the cards needed don't transfer very well to other decks, which means if you invest in this deck then this is really the only deck you can play with those cards. On the positive side this deck is incredibly good right out of the gates and can be improved with small upgrades over time (IoK becomes Thoughtseize, getting fetches and a Bayou.) I really like that they went with the 4 Khalni Garden + 4 Cabal Therapy, it's a cool synergy that adrieng has used with a lot of success. It's harder for someone new to the format to pilot Therapy correctly in the blind, but as something to go along with the discard and ways to flash it back, it does a lot of work. My favorite part, bar none, is that it's a competitive deck in Legacy, in one form currently as a DTB, for less than $500.

...And the only real reason for deciding to play Blooming Marsh + painland can only be budget reasons.

In the early days of this deck in Legacy it played this mana-base to get around Submerge. RUG Delver was a big deck in the format and this turned off one of their key sideboard cards against the deck. Yes, budget reasons as well, but with 12 tutors that shuffle your deck for Sylvan Library the fetchlands aren't as crucial as it seems. Fetches are a free shuffle, sure, but that is a minor thing. It's a way to upgrade after building the deck, for sure.

I don't think 4 Libraries is too many either. It's incredibly good at fighting grindier matchups like Miracles and Grixis Control, not only feeding you the best card in your top 3 every turn, but you can also use your life total a little more aggressively because your life total isn't under pressure from the opponent. Ten maindeck discards and 4 maindeck Libraries is a pretty fucking good start if you want to beat the control decks.