Cool, I'll check it out. There are 2 very specific things holding me back from attempting BUG depths: Underground Sea and Tropical Island. I understand I could attempt it with fastlands or painlands (Submerge-proof land plan) but it doesn't seem feasible with 3 colors, especially considering the fetch/dual mana-base is what feeds Brainstorm the best.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
http://www.cardtitan.com/legacy
FYI top8 lists are up for EW results, I also have a list of decks I played against in my "a deck per week challenge" thread here.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...hallenge/page6
Thanks for the link!!!
To make discussion easier:
Matthew Dilks 3rd place list:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin’s Trophy
4 Crop Rotation
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
4 Mox Diamond
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
4 Thespian’s Stage
4 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Assassin’s Trophy
2 Bitterblossom
1 Choke
2 Duress
1 Karakas
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
Jake Weinman 8th place list:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
3 Mox Diamond
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
4 Thespian’s Stage
4 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Dread of Night
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Karakas
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tireless Tracker
Very similar lists, but some minor changes. Both are on Mox Diamond/Wasteland/maindeck removal. Both trimmed back on tutors and discard to fit in removals. The other notable difference is Dilks played Bitterblossom sideboard, Weinman played GSZ/Teeg/Tracker. The rest is really just moving numbers around or using preferred removals (Toxic Deluge vs Dread of Night, etc.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
so is the turbo version fallen out of favor? most lists nowadays are bobs, diamonds and a mix of other cards.
yeah in the meta tempo doesn't see so much play maybe it is time to put these needles in side and add some surgical maindeck for all these graveyards deck/combo decks/control deck (snappy) ?
There are two main versions right now. BUG and BG. BUG has maindeck brainstorm and stifle with fluster in the board and is very well suited to miracles and combo. BG is much more grindy and is better suited to a fair meta and is better at fighting DnT.
I will say Bitterblossom is the real deal. If people don't know you have it, it really messes up there game 2 and 3. You can see how fast it beat miracles in the EW quarters and it completely unhinged lands for me. It is a very solid plan B and makes it difficult to chose a game plan against the deck.
I'll be taking Turbo Depths to a 1K on 12/1, looking for some feedback to prep for the tournament.
1) Has anyone tried Pernicious Deed in the sideboard? With the fast mana and few permanents outside of lands, it seems like it could be really good. Getting to 3 mana shouldn't be an issue, even under a Thalia.
2) Ramanup Excavator + Ghost Quarter #2 in the sideboard seems good, seeing as how I'm dedicated to the 1x GSZ in the maindeck. I'm looking to shore up the Lands matchup.
3) I've tried Hymn to Tourach in the sideboard for Miracles, and it's ok, but I'm leaning towards Choke instead. Bitterblossom was my old tech, but I traded them away. If it's necessary I'll pick them up again, probably 2. I also have extra copies of GSZ and a Gaddock Teeg. Looking for feedback on the best Miracles tech.
4) With the success of Slow Depths, would Tarmogoyf out of the sideboard be good as a transformational plan? The last time I tried it was with DRS, which made it essentially Rock-minus-white. With maindeck Confidant it would present a ton of threats and help to shore up D&T. I wouldn't use Gurmag because of Bobs, and unfortunately I don't have the Mox Diamonds.
5) Debating swapping Abrupt Decay for Pithing Needle main/side. Wasteland at the local level is at a low point and grindy control is at a high point. Back to Basics and Baleful Strix are more prevalent than Wasteland. Shadow decks are also on the rise, which uses Wasteland but almost never 4, which Abrupt Decay is very good at beating.
Thanks in advance! Aside from the usual challenges in the metagame (Miracles/D&T) I think Depths is actually well-placed. Dredge, odd combo decks like 12Post, and slower, grindier decks are becoming prevalent in my metagame again. I've also gotten a ton of practice in with my particular version of Turbo and I'm confident in how to pilot it. With these last few details worked out I think I can do some real damage in December.
Last edited by Mr. Safety; 11-09-2018 at 09:07 AM.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I love deed... but not in this deck. I always expect it to crush against D&T but it doest always work out like that. Their mana denial is a real hinderance. Playing it early means you buy a few turns cause they slow you with threats and you have to keep mana open to threaten using it. Playing it late just doesnt work because 3 mana + activation mana... playing it without activation mana means phyrexian revoker amongst others are a threat.
It was good against other decks but I always too it out of my sideboard eventually.
Hymn was always good to me. Especially as extra discard against control and combo.
Im not sure what matches goyf really helps with. Many times he is a wall and you don’t have enough card types to make him huge. A vanilla 3/4 is underwhelming in legacy. This is not the card you want against d&t. Mom is an issue.
I never liked choke. It always sounds better than it plays.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Thanks for the response. Combo is at an all timelow at the local, blue control is prevalent. I have had the opposite experience with choke (out of rocksideboards), every time i'vr landed it i have won. The only spot to cut is hymns, and i feel that therapy in the main is a pseudo hymn.
What do you think about gq #2? I feel like it is generally a good card in a few matchups. Again, something has to give, i'm looking for historical context and experience. I am still new to this deck, under a years worth of experience.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
not sure what list you are running exactly but many lists have a very delicate balance of lands that can't be messed with too much. We have about 11-12 spots that can't be touched (depths, stage, urborg). Since it sounds like your desire to include more than 1 GQ is based on your specific meta, i'll share my approach below.
My approach to deciding how many of any card follows
4x I'd always like to draw this. If I could have more I probably would. Duplicates are good.
3x I'd like to see this about once a game. Early game or late game doesnt matter too much. Duplicates arn't the best.
2x I'd like to see this about once a match or every other game. Duplicates are not good but one seeing 1 copy is very good / good enough to justify inclusion. (cards that are only good in particular situations common in the meta fall into this category but only where they have a good general use outside of that situation)
1x I really dont plan to draw this ever but when I do it can be helpful. The gameplan is to include just 1 because I plan to tutor for it and it can be a great silver bullet in game 1. Duplicates may be really really bad.
Not for this deck but if you are playing a bunch of cantrips ad 1 to the rational behind the number of copies to include, so 1x becomes 2x, 2x becomes 3x, and 3x becomes 4x.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
That is helpful, thanks. I was thinking gq#2 in the side.
EDIT: List =
4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Dark Confidant
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Lotus Petal
3x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Crop Rotation
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sylvan Scrying
1x Green Sun’s Zenith
1x Expedition Map
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian’s Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x bojuka bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Golgari Charm
1x karakas
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Choke
2x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Ramunap Excavator
Last edited by Mr. Safety; 11-12-2018 at 11:49 AM.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Just came from another small paper tournament, 5 rounds of swiss.
My list:
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Lotus Petal
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Assassin's Tropy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Thespian Stage
3 Urborg, TOmb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri, Steppe
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Rite of Consumption
3 Flusterstorm
R1 vs Maverick 2-0
R2 vs B2B Miracles 2-0
R3 vs Infect 1-2
R4 vs Grixis Control 2-0
R5 ID
QF vs Elves 2-0
SF vs UW Delver 2-0
Finals vs Infect 0-2 same guy that beat me R3
I side in Flusterstorm vs Miracles, Infect and Grixis Control but I never really felt the impact of the card. So I'm not really sure if I going to stick with this plan. Might go back to Hymn to Tourach or other discard spell instead. Same with the 2 Assassin's Trophy main. It's either I don't get to draw the card or even when I have it in my hand I'm already winning so maybe just leave it in the sideboard.
Anybody having a hard time beating Infect? I've lost to Infect last tournament also - in the swiss and Quarterfinals.
I haven't met Infect in ages. But I am getting beat a lot these days by tempo delver decks, including the new brand of UR Wizards/burn stuff. Of course, I play the Slow Depth version with Dark Confidant rather than the faster version with Elvish Spirit Guide.
It's actually starting to grate. I've even had RUG stuff managing to get under me, where just one bit of disruption was enough to slow me down, so by the time Marit Lage hit the field, I was dead anyway to a bunch of Goyfs and Delvers. Those are the times I wished I was playing Turbo. And then there's the control decks, some of which pack so much disruption, I wouldn't imagine taking them on without some means to recover, and that's Bob for the moment. Sometimes I'm thinking of a transformational SB where I would switch between Slow and Turbo, but then I'd just abandon the rest of the field, which seems too much for the moment.
To go back to your question: Infect is really a combo deck, although one that puts you on a clock no matter the hand disruption, unless you manage to take their one creature when on the play. Nevertheless, I tried playing Flusterstorm in BUG Depth, and I have played combo decks, and my personal take is that what really hurts combo while you try to setup your own stuff is still hand disruption, not counters. You already play 8 discards MB, which is really good. I've tried playing Hymn this weekend following the results of EW, and while weak to Daze decks, it's been really good shredding combo decks' hands apart. But I play Mox instead of Petal, not sure you can afford to play the 2 mana discard without losing too much momentum. You also have Abrupt Decay (which you should always play on your turn to force them to waste a Vines if they feel like it), so really, you're well set up. If you feel you absolutely need more, maybe you could consider a Maze of Ith?
R1 vs Maverick 2-0
R2 vs B2B Miracles 2-0
R3 vs Infect 1-2
R4 vs Grixis Control 2-0
R5 ID
QF vs Elves 2-0
SF vs UW Delver 2-0
Finals vs Infect 0-2 same guy that beat me R3
looking at the matchups you faced karakas and bojuka bog were dead cards in all the games while maze of ith would have been good against maverick, infect, grixis control, Uw delver and infect.
There is really no reason to play karakas and bojuka bog main.
Yup Maze would have help me with the Infect match up. I was actually debating on my list to fit in Maze but opted to keep Karakas since there are other Dark Depths players in our meta together with SNS and Reanimators. Bog is not a dead card even game 1 vs Miracles, UW Delver and Maverick. There was one match with Maverick where I bog my opponents yard because the Knight of Reliquary is already a 9/9 creature. I'm more debating over which one to md, if its Karakas or Dryad. Same with Inquisition over Hymn in the SB?
What is the 'rest of the field' that you mention? The decks that give Depths combo a hard time haven't changed: Miracles and Death and Taxes.
I was on the Slow Depths list for a long time, and one thing I've learned after switching to Turbo: Turbo Depths is already a good, grindy deck post-board. I think there is a perception, one I had for a long time, that it's just another glass-cannon. Looking at the amount of disruption it plays with 11 maindeck slots (8 discard, 3 needle) it's definitely not your run-of-the-mill glass cannon; it already plays more disruption than Storm, Infect, Elves and Dredge. It plays about the same amount of disruption as Show and Tell and Reanimator. Once you apply the sideboard, you can cut fast mana and play Library, Decays, and additional hate cards. I think one easy way to give you the 'value' feel of Slow Depths without compromising speed is to simply cut some number of slower tutors (Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map, however I don't go below 3) for Dark Confidants. I can honestly say that this is, hands down, the best Dark Confidant deck I've ever played. Taking an already grindy combo deck and making it more controlling doesn't make a lot of sense to me anymore. It just can't compete on the card advantage level that other decks bring to the table, unless you get so close to Lands that you should probably be playing that deck instead (or Jund, Nic Fit, Maverick, etc.) Once card advantage is the goal, the glass cannon looks less and less appealing. I know the feeling of 'trying to have it all', and I feel it's a trap.
TL;DR - squeeze in maindeck Confidants and your Turbo Depths deck can become a 'slow depths' list post-board, and IMHO its the best approach. It's not really transformational, it's just one change that can give you the 'slow grind' play you need.
Regarding Maze, that is another option for me to include in the sideboard for Lands. Definitely something I'm evaluating.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Negator77 went undefeated this weekend. I got all excited when I saw the 2nd Ghost Quarter in the sideboard, maybe cluing me into how to get one into mine, but I realized he wasn't maindecking one. Doh! He's on the Brainstorm/Stifle/Mox Diamond/Flusterstorm plan FYI.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20485&d=334417&f=LE
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
As far as I know other archetypes like Lands or Aggro Loam play normally with the Marit Lage combo but singletons.
But when they take 4 copies of Dark Depths and Thespian Stage these lists are closer to our lists.
You can see here an example:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20471&d=334256&f=LE
playing 4x Dark Depths 4x Thespian Stage 4x Crop Rotation but playing also with Life from the Loam + Exploration engine,
Pufi+Grove of the Burnwillows, etc.
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