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Thread: [Deck] Turbo Depths

  1. #3081

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Has anyone looked into using Leyline of Sanctity as a card out of the board? The double white makes it not terribly castable later, but it helps stop quite a few combo decks right from the get-go as well as hand disruption, while also stopping edict effects. Seems like it might be worth trying, especially in a version that just tries to turbo out the combo right away without worrying about the long game (i.e. a deck with petals/ESG rather than diamonds and libraries).

  2. #3082
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    What would you cut? Leyline shuts off discard and edicts, but we already have reliable ways to deal with that. Discard slows us down, but our lands can't be discarded, one of the decks strengths along with the combo being safe from countermagic.

    The eternal problem of Leylines, especially in a combo deck, is that it forces you to mulligan aggressively. Are you basically looking at Storm? I've been sideboarding a couple of Collective Brutality as additional discard/removal against Miracles, Grixis Control, and Grixis Delver. That works just fine against Storm as well, getting discard up to 9-10 slots. That's a really decent plan against Storm already. I don't think Leylines are necessary. Burn is a favorable matchup already, so Leyline doesn't really warrant slots there either.

    So besides Storm, why Leyline of Sanctity?
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  3. #3083

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    The thing about library is that you only really need to see 1/2 max per game. Drawing past the first one is already a feel bad. Fetches are a 1 life 0 mana way to look at a new 3 vs spending 1-2 mana on a shuffle effect.
    Solnox on MTGO

    Miracles is a good matchup for depths. Quote me on this

    Griselbrand is not an interesting creature.

    Dread it. Run from it. Marit Lage still arrives

  4. #3084
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by solnox View Post
    The thing about library is that you only really need to see 1/2 max per game. Drawing past the first one is already a feel bad. Fetches are a 1 life 0 mana way to look at a new 3 vs spending 1-2 mana on a shuffle effect.
    I'll admit 4 is a little excessive, but I could easily be convinced of 3. I currently only play 2 side because of 3 Bobs maindeck.
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  5. #3085

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I'll admit 4 is a little excessive, but I could easily be convinced of 3. I currently only play 2 side because of 3 Bobs maindeck.
    Hello there Mr.Safety, do you care to share your list please? I have a friend who wants to enter the format with Depths

  6. #3086
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths


    4x Vampire Hexmage
    3x Elvish Spirit Guide
    3x Dark Confidant
    2x Sylvan Safekeeper
    4x Lotus Petal
    3x Thoughtseize
    2x Duress
    2x Cabal Therapy
    4x Crop Rotation
    3x Pithing Needle
    4x Sylvan Scrying
    2x Abrupt Decay

    4x Dark Depths
    4x Thespianís Stage
    4x Verdant Catacombs
    1x Bayou
    2x Blooming Marsh
    3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Sejiri Steppe
    1x bojuka bog
    1x Ghost Quarter
    1x Swamp
    1x Forest
    1x Dryad Arbor

    Sideboard
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Liliana, the Last Hope
    1x Golgari Charm
    1x Toxic Deluge
    1x karakas
    2x Rite of Consumption
    2x Choke
    2x Sylvan Library
    2x Collective Brutality
    1x Abrupt Decay


    I'm working on a fairly specific sideboard guide as well. I have the slot changes laid out, but no explanations added yet. It would be specific to my particular build, not a general guide mind you.

    EDIT: I ended up adding the 4th Sylvan Scrying.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 01-07-2019 at 12:50 PM.
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  7. #3087

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    What would you cut? Leyline shuts off discard and edicts, but we already have reliable ways to deal with that. Discard slows us down, but our lands can't be discarded, one of the decks strengths along with the combo being safe from countermagic.

    The eternal problem of Leylines, especially in a combo deck, is that it forces you to mulligan aggressively. Are you basically looking at Storm? I've been sideboarding a couple of Collective Brutality as additional discard/removal against Miracles, Grixis Control, and Grixis Delver. That works just fine against Storm as well, getting discard up to 9-10 slots. That's a really decent plan against Storm already. I don't think Leylines are necessary. Burn is a favorable matchup already, so Leyline doesn't really warrant slots there either.

    So besides Storm, why Leyline of Sanctity?
    That's fair, I was mainly thinking of storm/burn and edicts, but I think you are right that it just isn't worth having to mulligan so aggresively. Running dryad arbor is probably a good enough measure against edicts, and I imagine you bring in collective brutality and maybe choke against storm in your list? Thanks for your thoughts!

  8. #3088
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by scryfox View Post
    That's fair, I was mainly thinking of storm/burn and edicts, but I think you are right that it just isn't worth having to mulligan so aggresively. Running dryad arbor is probably a good enough measure against edicts, and I imagine you bring in collective brutality and maybe choke against storm in your list? Thanks for your thoughts!
    Collective Brutality and Surgical Extraction. Choke is too slow and does too little to shut their mana off. Choke is for Miracles, Grixis Control, and other blue control decks. I don't board it in for Delver decks currently because I have Brutality to clear blockers and help that matchup (which doesn't need too much help, honestly.) For Storm the maindeck already has 7 discards and Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog, paired with a fast clock myself. It's actually pretty close to Storm in speed: play some discard then go off turn 2-4 and win. I only CropRot for Bog to prevent losing the turn they go off, otherwise it's generally better to just make a 20/20 and force them to have an answer. I mulligan to discard against Storm, the race is just too close to rely on speed alone. The one exception is if I have a nut-draw into a t1 Marit Lage on the play. It doesn't happen often, mind you.
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  9. #3089

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Thanks for the sideboarding advice! One last question for now if you don't mind me asking, but why blooming marsh? I was thinking about it, and the only thing I could think of off the top of my head was submerge or maybe surgical, but I wasn't sure how much those concerns would be worth compared to the risk of playing one with too many lands in play.

  10. #3090
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by scryfox View Post
    Thanks for the sideboarding advice! One last question for now if you don't mind me asking, but why blooming marsh? I was thinking about it, and the only thing I could think of off the top of my head was submerge or maybe surgical, but I wasn't sure how much those concerns would be worth compared to the risk of playing one with too many lands in play.
    1) It's mostly for budget reasons. When I got the first Bayou it was at $250 for slightly played. Finding one for less than $300 right now is a pipe dream.
    2) The enters tapped clause doesn't come up very often with Blooming Marsh. If I have 3 lands in play already I don't really need any more mana. It's there to get my initial black and green counts up to 14 (I am counting ESG and Petal as initial mana sources.)
    3) Submerge is rare. If I were to go the submerge-proof route I would go with 2-3 Blooming Marsh and use Llanowar Wastes instead of Fetch/Basic/Bayou. I don't advocate this. Not playing basics can lose you a small percentage of games where you don't have a basic, you don't have a Pithing Needle, and your opponent kills your lands with Wasteland.
    4) I fetch basics much more often than Bayou, and it isn't even close. If I have a turn 1 Needle then I fetch into Bayou, but more often than not I'm playing discard turn 1. I'd say, in very rough terms, that I fetch for basics about 65-70% percent of the time in the blind (t1 or I don't know my opponent's deck yet.)

    I haven't had mana issues, like literally zero, from having Blooming Marsh in the deck. It can be a dead draw after land number 3, but any non-combo land after number 3 is usually a dead draw. The one exception is Verdant Catacombs because it can fetch Dryad Arbor for Diabolic Edict or Cabal Therapy flashback. The important part of Marsh is that it's dual land that enters untapped early when you need it, this is a fast combo deck after all. We are already preparing to deal with Wasteland and we're already cold to Blood Moon; playing another non-basic isn't a risk. Regarding Bayou, #1 is far and away more important than Bayou 2-3. Start there and upgrade when you can. I have other priorities for my mtg disposable income right now, but if I can find a good trade or decent deal on Bayou #2 I'll take it.

    EDIT: Here is my rough draft of a sideboard guide. Again, it's particular to my list and it doesn't have explanations. I do update it whenever I change the deck, usually within a couple days. Make of it what you will.

    D&T +2 Rite, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress, -3 ESG
    Miracles +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, -3 Needle, -4 ESG
    Grixis Control - +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, -4 ESG, -3 Needle, -1 Petal
    Lands +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Duress, - 2 Therapy
    UW Stoneblade +2 Choke, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, -3 Petal, -4 ESG
    Esperblade +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +1 Liliana, -4 Petal, -4 ESG,
    Storm +2 Surgical, +2 Brutality, +1 Charm, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Confidant
    Burn +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +2 Brutality, +1 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -3 Confidant,
    Dredge +2 Surgical, +1 Decay, +2 Rite, -2 Duress, -3 Thoughtseize,
    Reanimator +2 Surgical, +1 Karakas, -3 Thoughtseize
    RUG Delver +1 Decay, +2 Library, +2 Brutality, -3 ESG, -2 Petal
    Shadow +1 Decay, +2 Library, -3 ESG
    Show and Tell +2 Surgical, +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Brutality, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Decay
    Eldrazi +1 Decay, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress
    Goblins +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, -2 Therapy, -2 Duress
    Infect +1 Decay, +1 Charm, , +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, +2 Rite, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -1 Needle
    Dragon Stompy +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -2 Needle, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Therapy
    Elves +1 Lili, +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Brutality, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Needle, -1 Confidant
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 01-04-2019 at 12:13 PM.
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  11. #3091

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Makes sense lol, I completely agree the first is always the most important. And thanks so much for the sb write up! The choices all make sense, and yeah, at a point you just need to choose what you are not going to address super heavily like blood moon as otherwise you warp your deck too much. Nice to have an out, but at a point sometimes is just wrecks your day.

  12. #3092

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Just add the 4th ESG and it would be optimal.

  13. #3093
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax- View Post
    Just add the 4th ESG and it would be optimal.
    Removing...what? I have found the 4th ESG cut to be unproblematic. There really isn't anything else to cut (and I'm already bummed I can't squeeze in the 4th Needle.)

    EDIT: DOH! I didn't realize it was at 59 cards maindeck. That slot will likely become Pithing Needle #4, Scrying #4, or Duress #3 before I add the 4th ESG. I suppose I could get the 3rd Decay main and free up a sideboard slot, but I'm not sure I want to do that. An extra Ghost Quarter sideboard has some appeal for me.

    Quite often when I am struggling in topdeck mode that 4th ESG just isn't any help. I'm not sure anything outside of combo pieces helps really, but having a vanilla 2/2 for 3 or an extra green mana is pretty 'meh'.
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  14. #3094

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Removing...what? I have found the 4th ESG cut to be unproblematic. There really isn't anything else to cut (and I'm already bummed I can't squeeze in the 4th Needle.)

    EDIT: DOH! I didn't realize it was at 59 cards maindeck. That slot will likely become Pithing Needle #4, Scrying #4, or Duress #3 before I add the 4th ESG. I suppose I could get the 3rd Decay main and free up a sideboard slot, but I'm not sure I want to do that. An extra Ghost Quarter sideboard has some appeal for me.

    Quite often when I am struggling in topdeck mode that 4th ESG just isn't any help. I'm not sure anything outside of combo pieces helps really, but having a vanilla 2/2 for 3 or an extra green mana is pretty 'meh'.
    I thought you were on the 4th ESG already because the 59 cards and because you shave -4 ESG in some of the matchups in your sb guide.

  15. #3095
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    I need to fix that. I update the guide after changes, must have missed it.
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  16. #3096
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    I updated the sideboard guide. I ended up putting in the 4th Sylvan Scrying for the open slot, so this reflects that. I feel that Sylvan Scrying is the right spot because I noticed I was siding in a lot of Libraries in different matchups. Cutting 2 drops for 2 drops makes sense. I may be completely wrong in this, but again, it's a rough draft. I also want to maintain a critical mass of tutors for consistencies' sake.

    D&T +2 Rite, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress, -3 ESG
    Miracles +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, -3 Needle, -3 ESG, -1 Petal
    Grixis Control +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, -3 ESG, -3 Needle, -2 Scrying
    Lands +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Duress, - 2 Therapy
    UW Stoneblade +2 Choke, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, -4 Petal, -3 ESG, -2 Scrying
    Esperblade +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +1 Liliana, -3 ESG, -2 Scrying, -2 Petal
    Storm +2 Surgical, +2 Brutality, +1 Charm, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Confidant
    Burn +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +2 Brutality, +1 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -3 Confidant,
    Dredge +2 Surgical, +1 Decay, +2 Rite, -2 Duress, -3 Thoughtseize,
    Reanimator +2 Surgical, +1 Karakas, -3 Thoughtseize
    Delver +1 Decay, +2 Library, +2 Brutality, -3 ESG, -2 Petal
    Shadow +1 Decay, +2 Library, -3 ESG
    Show and Tell +2 Surgical, +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Brutality, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Decay
    Eldrazi +1 Decay, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress
    Goblins +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, -2 Therapy, -2 Duress
    Infect +1 Decay, +1 Charm, , +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, +2 Rite, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -1 Needle
    Dragon Stompy +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -2 Needle, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Therapy
    Elves +1 Lili, +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Brutality, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Needle, -1 Confidant

    I'm still trying to figure out the Stoneblade matchup, I haven't played it much. I know I want ways to kill TNN, but I don't know if I want to go so deep into fighting on a fair axis. It's less controlling than Miracles or Grixis but it has a lot of similar elements (Force, StP, Jace.) It also usually has Wastelands in some number, so I don't cut Needles like I do against Miracles/GrixisC. I really need to get in a bunch more reps with this deck to nail it down.
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  17. #3097
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20984&d=339205&f=LE

    Traitor! Even DNSolver is switching over to Mox Diamond.
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  18. #3098

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20984&d=339205&f=LE

    Traitor! Even DNSolver is switching over to Mox Diamond.
    It's more about Brainstorm.

  19. #3099
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    The Brainstorm/Stifle splash w/Flusterstorm sideboard has been a known quantity for a while, Negator77 has been on it since forever. The Mox Diamond change was what surprised me because DNSolver has been advocating for the Petal/ESG plan for a long time.
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  20. #3100
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by DNSolver View Post
    Sharing here because I can't let the Mox Diamond players win:

    Got a 5-0 last night with this. Beat Miracles, Burn, Bug Delver x2, BR Reanimator, all favorable matchups.

    4 Depths
    4 Stage
    3 Urborg
    4 Verdant
    2 Bayou
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Dryad Arbor
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Sejiri Steppe
    1 Ghost Quarter

    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Elvish Spirit Guide

    4 Pithing Needle
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Duress

    4 Crop Rotation
    4 Sylvan Scrying
    3 Expedition Map

    1 Sylvan Safekeeper
    4 Vampire Hexmage
    2 Green Sun's Zenith

    SB:
    3 Flusterstorm
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Rite of Consumption
    1 Boseiju
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Sylvan Safekeeper
    1 Karakas
    This was his last big message, pre-Brainstorm but Flusterstorm splash. 12/5/18, so just about a month ago.

    My big beefs with the list is 1) no basic lands and 2) what does Brainstorm do that tutors don't do? I could be convinced of zero basics if you're just tossing the Blood Moon/Back to Basics matchups out the window because it's on the downward trend but I can't be convinced to add 'air' to a deck that is already uber-consistent without Brainstorm. Turbo Depths is easily the most consistent non-blue 2-color deck I've ever played.
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