[Deck] Turbo Depths

[solnox]

Decay is so good at stemming early aggression from decks like Delver where they're forced to find another clock instead of holding up mana. Uncounterably killing shit like Blossom. Delver pyromancer is so good.

[Mr. Safety]

Decay is much more relevant in the Miracles matchup as well, due to it being able to handle Monastery Mentor. It doesn't win you the game but easily adds several turns to find a solution. Mentor along with cantrips can create lethal out of nowhere, sometimes in one turn. Brainstorm is the only instant-speed cantrip so in response to Ponder, Portent, or Preordain Decay is still a reasonable solution. Don't get me wrong, A-trophy is a great card and fits into this puzzle somewhere, but I don't think it's a replacement for Decay, rather a supplement to it.

[Listlik]

Is slow version of depths playable without playset of mox diamonds?

[ComplexPants]

Is slow version of depths playable without playset of mox diamonds?

Not really. I have played a version with 3, but you really need the recurrent mana source to justify bob and a grindier build in general. Petal is very good, but it has to be used to create a lot of advantage quickly, which is why you see it in explosive combo decks like ANT, Reanimator, turbo depths, etc.

[Mr. Safety]

I played Friday and went 3-1, felt incredible all night. I have some changes I want to test, but nothing huge. I ended up playing 2x Collective Brutality in the sideboard instead of Hymn, for castability reasons. I love its flexibility but I didn't escalate it even once, I just couldn't afford to lose any cards in hand. Maindeck Decay was 100% correct, I noticed a big difference in the matchups I faced. Speaking of matchups I played against: UW Chalice pile (not even sure what to call it...), Aggro Loam, Goblins, and BW Tokens brew (Depths, Souls, Chalice, Hymn, Thalia 2.0) My only loss was to Aggro Loam, and that due to a top-decked Karakas in g1. I was playing around Liliana and Wasteland, my needle on Waste getting Decay-ed a turn before. I squeeked out g2 on the back of Rite of Consumption, lost g3 to absurd value town (Liliana, Dark Confidant, Knight fetching up nuclear bombs.) Goblins was a fairly easy matchup, although I did lose g2 to variance. G3 the guy played Skirk Prospector into Goblin Matron into Stingscourger to bounce my token, but I still get there by combo-ing again 2 turns later. Redundancy is pretty hot in Turbo Depths.

So the changes I think I'll make are -1 GSZ (it was dead more than once) and getting the 8th discard back in (likely Thoughtsieze #4.) The Brutalities need a little more testing, and I want to experiment with a 2nd Ghost Quarter/4th Needle there as well. Basically 2 slots are flexible in the sideboard, maindeck is settled for me ATM.

[Hanni]

I think the removal discussion is interesting. I would agree Decay is far superior against Miracles. It's a better answer to Counterbalance and Mentor because of the uncounterability, and it doesn't give them a free land.

Against Delver decks, though, despite being counterable, Assassin's Trophy can hit Gurmag Angler, so Abrupt Decay isn't necessarily better.

I will keep an eye on this thread and future lists to see how the removal split shakes out.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the removal discussion is interesting. I would agree Decay is far superior against Miracles. It's a better answer to Counterbalance and Mentor because of the uncounterability, and it doesn't give them a free land.

Against Delver decks, though, despite being counterable, Assassin's Trophy can hit Gurmag Angler, so Abrupt Decay isn't necessarily better.

I will keep an eye on this thread and future lists to see how the removal split shakes out.

Don't forget that Diabolic Edict is a card either. Marsh Casualties, Golgari Charm, and Lili Last Hope all deal with Peezy and friends, Decay is reasonable for Delvers, and Edicts can be very useful for Sneak/Show, Reanimator, and Depths mirrors.

[adrieng]

i have got a 5-0 on mtgo here :https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...bg-64945#paper had also a 3-2 and 4-1
can't remember what i beat but it was good decks.
though I dont have all the cards I want on mtgo especially mindbreak trap toxic deluge and surgical
I went 4-1 last week end on paper lost to moon stompy 1-2 beat human 2-1 grixis control 2-0 death and taxes 2-1 and burn 2-0.

I suggest you give more credit to khalni garden +therapy and 4 off library instead of confidant



// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 27 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
3 Khalni Garden
4 Llanowar Wastes

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 9 Instant
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

[Mr. Safety]

I like Khalni Garden, but I in no way can afford to play 3-4 copies to feed 4x Therapy. I want Verdant Catacombs to grab Arbor at instant speed so I don't have to rely on land tutors to get Khalni Garden. It's a legitimate strategy (obviously you do well with it) but I am not cutting Confidants, no way. My experience has been overwhelmingly positive with Confidants maindeck.

I do like the Maze of Ith inclusion, that could be a possibility for the GSZ slot.

[adrieng]

you want to cut the petal for garden. There is no need of acceleration in this deck, format is slow. the thing is more discard is better than more acceleration so with therapy you have double discard
and playing around edict is easier . I am 8-0 right now against grixis control in tornament.

I also cut one needle for 2nd maze and never went back

Against miracle g1 library is better than safekeeper cause it protects the token +20 life when sworded and you are not afraid of surgical g1 ; against others decks except death and taxes maybe it is better than safekeeper it is not a dead card.
As for myself I prefer having the safekeepers in side, it is other ways a dead card in many matchups, all tempo deck/combo decks especially. there is no reason to play safekeeper instead of lib maindeck except maybe confidant.

[Jax-]

You can play w/e you want right now and do well because the deck is so strong in the current meta.

[solnox]

@adrieng. It would be nice if you could tell us the matchups you run into for your leagues. My typical leagues are filled with decks that will wreck you if you drop a beat (Sneak, Storm variants, Reanimator). 4 Library without fetchlands is strange. With a fetch mana base, you get to play around moon, have access to arbor and get shuffles.

Not having bog mainboard on mtgo is a mistake imo. There are too many Reanimator, ANT, dredge decks and it has good applications vs AK Miracles and other snapcaster decks.

[Mr. Safety]

@adrieng. It would be nice if you could tell us the matchups you run into for your leagues. My typical leagues are filled with decks that will wreck you if you drop a beat (Sneak, Storm variants, Reanimator). 4 Library without fetchlands is strange. With a fetch mana base, you get to play around moon, have access to arbor and get shuffles.

Not having bog mainboard on mtgo is a mistake imo. There are too many Reanimator, ANT, dredge decks and it has good applications vs AK Miracles and other snapcaster decks.

I don't think I would ever play this without a maindeck Bog. I missed the fact that he was playing 4 Libraries along side zero fetchlands; I'm not criticizing, he's obviously done well, but it's counter-intuitive. In defense of the list he's still playing a full set of Maps, which most other lists have dropped altogether. That's at least 4 extra shuffle effects with Library. It also plays around Moon, but without maindeck removal he's counting on discard heavily to avoid losing to Blood Moon .

[adrieng]

In the league if I can remember I have beaten storm (which is a better matchup with cabal therapy and 10 discards main), death and taxes, grixis control, enchantress twice (which is a hard matchup cause elephant grass is hard to beat),
i lost to moon stompy twice, beat miracle, eldrazi twice (post and aggro) with karakas, beat burn, lost to sliver (their clock his huge they have flying creatures and karakas), beat humans with karakas, beat UB tempo with bitterblossom, beat grixis control, lost to UB reanimator bad luck here he was on the play other way would have won, beat UB shadow can't remember others decks I played.

I don't think there is a reason to play bog maindeck, maze is ten time better. You said that you would miss bog main but looking at the matchups you faced :
UW Chalice pile (not even sure what to call it...), Aggro Loam, Goblins, and BW Tokens

bog is dead here except maybe for aggro loam while maze is good versus loam, goblin and maybe token


I have 12 shuffle effects 4 crop+4 map+4 scrying so library works well with them. I don't like decay main, I have tested them and I prefer more tutors. What do you want to decay G1 ? a creature go for maze, a strix go for sejirii, b2b ok fine but it is just one matchup chalice you have vampire for them after side it is good for needles, kotr b2b etc...

Yeah my manabase is not perfect I would play 4 verdant catacomb + 4 bayou if had them cause submegre doesn't see any play. I don't like basics though it weakens too much the mana base consistency, and you will still lose to moon stompy.

I think more tutor is better than decay g1.

[Mr. Safety]

bog is dead here except maybe for aggro loam while maze is good versus loam, goblin and maybe token

Being 'good' and being 'necessary' are 2 completely different things. When it comes to Bojuka Bog and it's ability to steal g1's against fast graveyard decks it is absolutely necessary. Maze is good, don't get me wrong, but it isn't an either/or situation. I didn't need Maze in any of those matchups that I won and Maze against Loam might have been ok, but I essentially lost to a lucky top-deck and Wasteland activations after my Needle got Decay-ed. Maze would likely not have changed the situation, given he had the Loam/Wasteland engine online. Might have taken an extra turn to beat me, but whatever. Bog on the other hand, if I had drawn it or had access to it from Crop Rotation, could have given me at least 3 extra turns to find a path to winning. Again, not saying Maze is bad, or even that I won't try it. I just feel that Bog has more than justified itself through many situations, to the point that I will never sleeve Depths without it. Legacy is too wide open and the opportunity cost is minimal for Bog.

Honestly, Maze makes a ton more sense in the Mox Diamond lists. It's an extra land to pitch to Diamond build synergy with Loam, simply because you need more lands at the expense of other spells.

I don't think there is a reason to play bog maindeck, maze is ten time better.

I think this is a stretch. If we're talking about relevancy in the meta-game I think Bog wins that comparison hands-down. I suppose that with Depths getting so popular the Mirror match is a consideration, but sideboard Karakas is quite a bit better at attacking a broader list of decks. Against Emrakul for instance, Karakas is lights out. Maze doesn't stop annihilator. A better comparison would be Karakas vs Maze of Ith, and if Karakas isn't worth maindeck slots (outside of Diamond/Loam synergy) then Maze isn't worth maindeck slots. Call me crazy, but that makes sense to me when following trends.

[adrieng]

maze of ith is good agaisnt every creaturish decks, eldrazi, death and taxes, delver.decks, grixis control, stoneblade.decks, goblin, reanimator might be ok, humans, infect...
karakas is good against what ? reanimator, mirror and show and tell maybe that's 15% of the meta versus 65% of the meta and here it is not game winning against rea and show tell
it is often too late when you have it except show tell>emrakul other way they might have omni grisel draw=>win, sneak and if you have needle griselbrand maze does the same thing
so it is really good only in the mirror

Bog is good versus reanimator, storm (here it is really not ideal you have no clock so they shld go for ad nauseam with 20 life or be sure you don't have the crop), dredge and land i won't enter it against miracle 15% of the meta
Maze force opponent to waste it if you don't have the needle to have a clock ; other way they are locked.

so really there is no match 65% of the meta versus 15%

[Mr. Safety]

Solid points. I guess I'm really looking at how it affects matchups that are unfavored or even, not matchups that are already favored. Helping a matchup that is already favored isn't a good argument for me to change my deck. Helping with unfavorable matchups, without compromising my favorable ones, is a great argument for changing my deck. I'm not seeing that. I think you're also downplaying the importance of Karakas as well; it's incredibly impactful against the right matchups. I don't know anyone besides you that foregoes Karakas somewhere in the 75. It isn't good against D&T...but Maze of Ith isn't winning you that matchup either.

Almost all of the other matchups that you mention Maze of Ith helps against we don't need help with. Grixis control brings in Edicts, has Strix for blockers, and Jace. We play Dryad Arbors (you have Khalni tokens), Sejiri Steppe to get past blockers, and Rite of Consumption to get around Jace (or just needle the fucker.) Bog can hold off Gurmags if we are slow to combo. Non-red stompy variants have Chalice, which is a bummer but that's why we play Abrupt Decay/Assassin's Trophy/Krosan Grip alongside a combo that doesn't need to spells to win, or we can use Sylvan Scrying/Dark Confidant/Sylvan Library to draw into the combo. Blood Moon is a pain, but Maze of Ith does literally nothing to help that matchup. Stoneblade's True Names gets past Maze no problem, and again we have Sejiri Steppe to get past Souls tokens if they play them. Same situation with jace, play around it with Rite, combo at end of turn, or needle it. Delver decks are historically favored for us, especially RUG delver. They have no way to deal with a 20/20, all we have to do is find a way to resolve the 20/20. With 8 discards, needles for Wastes, Bog to shut off Goyfs/Geese/Gurmags, and we have ways of playing around Edicts. Abrupt Decay kills delvers/young pyromancers. Maze does work, but isn't worth cutting other spells to weaken the deck.

I understand that creature-ish decks (the ones you mentioned) can get in under our combo and beat us if we don't assemble the combo, or if they stall us long enough to beat down. It happens, variance is a thing. But I'm not worried about Eldrazi Stompy when I can make a 20/20 on turn 2 without casting any non-creature spells.

EDIT: The one deck you can argue for is Infect, Maze is insane against that deck, essentially a lock. I know they are playing some number of Wasteland in their deck to combat Maze against lands, but if we needle Wasteland we're all set. I wouldn't maindeck it for Infect, it's just not a common enough matchup. I might not even address it all except for Liliana Last Hope, Golgari Charm, Marsh Casualties, and Abrupt Decay. So once again, I am not adjusting my deck for that.

Some matchups we have to concede, it's the nature of a big format like Legacy. Bog helps close/unfavorable matchups, Maze only strengthens matchups that are seemingly already favored. Is Maze a good card against 65% of the format, or is Depths just a good strategy against 65% of the format?

[Darklingske]

Played a local tourney last sunday with slow depths and ended 4-3.
Won against: Esper rector 2-1, Sneak and Show 2-1, UB Delver 2-0 and UW stoneblade 2-0
Lost against: UB Shadow 1-2 (deck just decided to crap out G1, G3 mull to 5 and being hit by double discard and fast angler), Sneak and show 1-2 (T2 Grisel both games he won) and Lands 1-2 (G1 I was flooded and G3 after a mull to 5 took me 4 turns to find land nr 3 after a T2 waste from him).
How do you guys handle Sneak and show? The MU feels really favored for them and I don't know if we can really improve it.

[adrieng]

Against death and taxes the plan is to copy maze with stage or bring the second maze stall then toxic deluge the board ; that wins the match yes.
When you have 3-4 maze they need to developp lot of ressources onto the board then you deluge ftw.

Against gurmag bog is stricly worse than maze maze stalls, same thing against stoneblade a 3/1 is not a serious clock while batterskul if connects is 24+life so you need double attack which can be problematic jace bounce by example after taking 20, same thing against death and taxes you don't want them to go upper 20 cause other way you need double attack and sejiri steppe is not enough to win you against mother+ flying bloquer.

Eldrazi is not as easy as you say, you lot of time have to stall if they have karakas, wasteland others stuff... Good players don't waste aggresively your piece of combo when they don't need to

[Mr. Safety]

Against death and taxes the plan is to copy maze with stage or bring the second maze stall then toxic deluge the board ; that wins the match yes.
When you have 3-4 maze they need to developp lot of ressources onto the board then you deluge ftw.

Against gurmag bog is stricly worse than maze maze stalls, same thing against stoneblade a 3/1 is not a serious clock while batterskul if connects is 24+life so you need double attack which can be problematic jace bounce by example after taking 20, same thing against death and taxes you don't want them to go upper 20 cause other way you need double attack and sejiri steppe is not enough to win you against mother+ flying bloquer.

Eldrazi is not as easy as you say, you lot of time have to stall if they have karakas, wasteland others stuff... Good players don't waste aggresively your piece of combo when they don't need to

That's a good point about Maze forcing them to develop the board so you can wipe with Deluge. Good call. I understand Eldrazi isn't as easy as I made it sound, but I would say it's still a matchup we are at least slightly favored.