Your list looks really good, having the thoughtseizes certainly helps pushing the first Marit Lage through for the win and helps against faster combo decks which we desperately need help with.
I agree with you that Sejiri Steppe is an important card, especially since you play thoughtseize. It's also worth noting that it can save your Bob/Vampires if you really need them! I would either cut the 2nd Forest or thr 2nd Maze of ith to fit it in. The 4th Urborg could indeed be a nice inclusion to have additionnal chances to combo T2 and is never really a problem having in multiples since Mox Diamond can pitch it.
The 2 Sylvan Safekeepers don't seem to fit too well in your list since you have recursion with Loam, you might want to consider cutting them to add more Thoughtseize effects or perhaps add the 4th Exploration & 3rd Loam?
Otherwise, the list looks great. I'm happy you're getting success on your side as well. This deck seems to be able to play really well on so many different levels, it's a blast.
Thanks, the list is kind of a hybrid between yours and David Long's. The 3 basics is a hedge towards trophy, but that might be not needed. I might drop to 1x safe keeper for steppe and maybe -1 forest for urborg. Also to note, Safe keeper can protect all your creatures, repeatedly. Steppe more importantly, bypasses creatures with protection, mass tokens and opposing Lage's.
I'll test it more. I still want a decent secondary win condition in the board. Green creature package doesn't seem bad, but I think it needs something else. I am almost debating goyf.
Played at FNM, went 2-2. Beat Rug Delver and 12Post, lost a close one to Lands (made a big mistake) and lost to Miracles. I pulled out a win in every match, and i feel like practice will help my win percentages. The deck is pure gas, so much fun.
List:
4x hexmage
3x bob
1x safekeeper
1x dryad arbor
4x spirit guide
4x petal
4x crop rot
4x thoughtseize
2x duress
2x cabal therapy
3x pithing needle
3x sylvan scrying
1x expedition map
1x green suns zenith
4x depths
4x stage
4x verdant catacombs
1x bayou
1x swamp
1x forest
2x blooming marsh
3x urborg
1x gq
1x steppe
1x bog
Side
3x decay
3x hymn
2x rite of consumption
2x sylvan library
1x karakas
2x surgical extraction
1x golgari charm
1x marsh casualties
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Went 4-1 at local with the followig list :
// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
3 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle
// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library
// 7 Instant
4 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay
// 26 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Khalni Garden
1 Maze of Ith
3 Llanowar Wastes
// 12 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sylvan Scrying
3 Duress
// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper
// 4 Instant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
// 2 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
// 3 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Duress
beat storm 2-1 opponent missplayed, I think I'll play some mindbreak trap instead of chalice in side, lost to moon stompy 1-2, then beat UR stiflewaste delver 2-1 (mull to 5 opponent g1 g2 double delver +wasteland and I side out needle thought he was on UR burn, g3 turn 3 token with some discards) ; miracle 2-1 (lost g1 to b2b and can't find decay, kept a greedy hand g2 with no green/black source but lot of discard surgicals/safekeeper draw my lands late in game but it still win, g3 had a good hand with double discard (kozile/cabal+garden) and a library that gets there) and grixis control 2-0 (g1 turn one discard turn 2 library turn 3 mage+depth followed by garden +discard g2 some discard he had a couple of strix had sejiri in hand he HTT a 3 cards hand but didnt hit sejiri that won me the game).
I am playing a 3 off decay main cause I was always entering them it gains space in side for combo without reducing too much the number of tutors. I also had very problematics games against miralce (B2B specially without them).
feel like everything is fine expect for moon stompy but if you want to beat it consistantly you have to destructure too much the deck, I prefer scooping to it for now.
I know some people are on HTT I tested them in side and feel it was not good enough, I want something that wins if not answered vs storm and HTT is bad against reanimator.
I have ten discard main and feel it is not enough ; but I want a different option maybe mindbreak trap or trinisphere + a one off ancient tomb might be an option.
Second maze in side is for deathAndTaxes, I feel this matchup is winnable even without DoN but you have to be a little lucky on the oppening hand and play very properly
I think Cabal Therapy is amazing in this deck, it was so good against Miracles. I played 3 close games against Miracles, winning g2 off the back of Cabal Therapy. I definitely want a 3rd copy of that in my maindeck.
I am trying to figure out the Lands matchup, and I have a few ideas. The big thing I realized is that Rite of Consumption isn't an out to Glacial Chasm. Lands actually has some pretty difficult ways to stack up interaction (Karakas, Wasteland, Port, Maze, Chasm.) I was playing *one* Ghost Quarter and 3 Needles. This is one matchup where I think the 4th Needle goes a long ways.
I had a couple guys imploring me, like almost begging me, to play Assassin's Trophy in the deck. I'm still not convinced; I already have answers to the specific problems the format presents and I'm not really in the market for a 'generically' good removal spell.
What is everyone's thoughts on AssTrophy, yes/no and why?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
So far, that's the only compelling argument. I could also argue that I wouldn't be able to squeeze in more than 1-2 copies, given the need for other sideboard cards (and it would definitely be a sideboard card.) I could also accomplish the same with a 4th Needle and a 2nd Ghost Quarter in the sideboard, both of which are also decent against Death and Taxes. I could also board a 2nd Ghost Quarter and a Ramanup Excavator, which seems even better than Assassin's Trophy in a longer game.
The other part of the argument, and one that pulls a lot of weight for me, is this: I don't face Lands very often, there is only 1 player at the local using it and maybe 2 players at any sort of larger tournament locally (50 players, on average.) Do I beef up the sideboard for that matchup? In most matchups where I want a removal spell, Abrupt Decay does the job (Blood Moon, Chalice, Back to Basics, Mentor, Baleful Strix, Delver variants.)
What has been everyone's experience with Lands? I had quite the (almost heated) discussion with a couple local guys that said the Lands matchup is favored for Turbo Depths (same guys imploring for me to use Assassin's Trophy.) Neither has played on the Lands side and both have limited experience with Turbo. I tend to disagree, calling it maybe 50/50 g1 and slightly unfavored g2. It's always been a slog for me, a bunch of back-and-forth between me landing a Needle for one of their lands and then they draw into another piece that I need to grind through.
TL;DR - I'm still not convinced AT is correct for this deck. Prove me wrong.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Just trying to open discussion. I'm hoping for DNSolver and other super-experienced pilots to pipe in. I've been wrong before, I'm looking for either confirmation or debunking.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
AT is the most flexible card ever printed. Dismissing it is fine, but dismissing it because other cards have more applications is just wong. This card deals with bridge, solitary confinement, blood moon, peacekeeper, a blocker, and many more cards in addition to all the cards that needle and GC deals with.
The big debate over AT is the comparison to Decay. Decay hits the vast majority of targets that hurt this deck and is uncounterable, and until just recently wasn’t considered a main deck card. Trophy does few other special things, notably Jace, Angler, Batterskull and Eldrazi. The biggest distinction between the two is Trophy can hit land (duh).
I think what Safety is getting at is more of the comparison between needle and Trophy. Needle can handle wasteland, Karakas and many of the threats that annoy this deck, but where needle really lacks is straight up land hate. There are a handful of top tier decks right now that just don’t run basics. Trophy is gold here, as it is wasteland 5-8. So, I would say if you want more land hate, I would consider it.
I am running a 2:1 split between Trophy and Decay in the main. I am specifically doing this because I am running 4 wastelands, a ghost quarter and a few loams to prey on land. I round about spoke with a David Long (3rd place at an SCG open with a grindy list) said he doesn’t think this deck needs trophy. But again, I am pushing a little more land hate than the average bear.
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Also, the lands match up is all about speed. They will put grind you. So if you can hit the ground running you will be favored. They can always find an answer, but in the last few times playing them I have won because I was just plain faster. That being said I have also been hopeless wastelanded out of the game.
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I think if you're playing Wasteland you're likely avoiding Pithing Needle, at least not using it maindeck as protection from Wasteland/Karakas/etc. I don't plan on playing the slower mana-denial version at the moment, I want to keep it Turbo, but I'll keep it in mind. As additional Wastelands/land hate Trophy does seem very good, another good argument if that is a direction I want to take.
So in regards to lands, mulligan into a fast combo?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
My teammate plays RG Lands and he is very good at it. Based on our several match on a tournament, he likely wins if he has turn 1 Exploration. In short, if he can assemble the lock pieces (Loam + Wasteland/Ghost Quarter) or assemble the combo faster (Marit Lage) then he surely wins the match. I'm lucky if I can get a draw with him. But through experience, I am now 3-0 against his RG Lands: 2-0 every time. Faster hand, Pithing Needle (I upgraded to 4 MD), Sylvan Safekeeper, 1 Karakas (use to be in my SB) and Rite of Consumption from the SB are the reason I beat him now. He haven't had good finish with RG Lands that's why he changed deck and now plays PW (7 MD) BUG Lands. We already faced twice in a tournament and I lost twice to him. He made it to top 8 yesterday in our local tournament (I was 9th). His list has 4 Chalice, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Edict, 3 Abrupt, 2 JTMS, 2 LotV, 1 Pernicious Deed, 4 Wasteland, 1 GQ, 2 Loam, 1 Karakas, 1 Maze of Ith MD. I think he got the idea from Lincoln Baxter.
I'm going to put 2 Assassin's Trophy in my SB since I have space now because I'm going to put in 3 Abrupt Decay MD.
Heya peeps,
I found that with the (traditional) lands match up you can prevent them from comboing game one by naming thespian stage with needle and this should also stop them winning unless they have a stage out already and copy something with it. Apart from punishing fire I don’t think there’s anyway they can win from there as K grips are in sideboard. Game two is a bit different as they can deal with the needle...
Hope this helps 👍
Most lists use Molten Vortex x1 in the main, sometimes a 2nd in the side. With Loam, that's a pretty fast clock. I'm not saying it's consistent, but it's a way to kill us if they can buy enough time with Wasteland/Port. Good call on the Needle naming Stage; it's risky because we HAVE to draw into Hexmage, but it can work. This is one matchup where 4 Needles is ideal. I might get the 4th one back into the sideboard.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I streamed with Assassin's Trophy last night. Catch those games - the first league I played two in the board, second league one in the board while trying Togores' list.
Edit: Yes, Lands will kill you with Punishing Fire. Needling Stage doesn't do anything to stop them from winning. Needling the effects that they have that you can't beat, such as infinite Ghost Quarters / Wastelands, is more effective for most builds of Depths.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
Using Punishing Fire as a killcon in Lands happens, with 6 manasources (2RRR+grove) and 2 Punishing Fires you do three damage a turn. That's why I don't think Needling Stage will help you win the Lands matchup, thei're probably better spent in helping you win faster (naming waste/quarter/maze/Karakas?), as you probably want to avoid the long game.
Last edited by Mr. Safety; 10-18-2018 at 12:16 PM.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I've replaced Grip with Trophy in my board. So far, its been alright
Solnox on MTGO
Miracles is a good matchup for depths. Quote me on this
Griselbrand is not an interesting creature.
Dread it. Run from it. Marit Lage still arrives
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