[Deck] Turbo Depths

[uncletiggy]

@H it wasn't a table ruling or I probably would have, the judge just happened to be lurking and after being blood mooned out of Rnd 2 I figured I'd clarify ahead of time before it came up. Oddly enough he consulted another judge on it.

[H]

@H it wasn't a table ruling or I probably would have, the judge just happened to be lurking and after being blood mooned out of Rnd 2 I figured I'd clarify ahead of time before it came up. Oddly enough he consulted another judge on it.

Bizarre, were these level 1 judges? I'm not a judge, but this would seem like a pretty basic interaction to understand for them, seeing as to how it is no different than why a Watery Grave would enter tapped. Perhaps they were just unfamiliar with Dark Depths, as in they usually judge things like Standard or Modern? I guess they could have been unfamiliar with Blood Moon, but that has been around nearly as long as Magic itself...

[jdmdave]

Would you guys say the following constitutes a reasonable list of decks to prepare for? Data is taken from MTGtop8

Decks, Answers, & Ghost Quarters

Prospective Sideboard
* 3-4 Surgical
* 0-1 Flex Crucible/Garruk/Grip/Gloom/Library
* 4 Sphere/Chalice
* 1 Needle (4th)
* 1 NoTw (3rd)
* 1 Karakas (MD Bog)
* 1 Ith (MD Bog)
* 3 Abrupt Decay

Aggro
* Eldrazi Aggro: +3 Abrupt Decay; Ghost Quarter vs 0 nonbasics
* Grixis Delver: +3 Abrupt Decay, +4 Sphere/Chalice, +1 Maze of Ith; GQ vs 0 nonbasics
* UR Delver: +3 Abrupt Decay, +4 Sphere/Chalice, +1 Maze of Ith; GQ Worthless
* Death & Taxes: +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Not of this World, +1 Pithing, +0-2 Surgical (STP), +1 Karakas, +1 Maze; GQ vs Karakas
* Infect: +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Maze of Ith, +4 Sphere; GQ vs Inkmoth
* Canadian: +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Maze, +4 Sphere, +0-3 Surgical (Threshold); GQ vs 0 nonbasics
* Burn: +4 Sphere/Chalice, +1 Maze; GQ Worthless
* Generic Aggro: +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Maze

Control
* Miracles: +3 Abrupt Decay, +3-4 Surgical, +4 Chalice/Sphere, +1 Needle, +1 Karakas (Lossett), +1 NoTW, +0-1 Flex (Garruk/Crucible/et al.); GQ vs. karakas/plains/on-demand shuffling
* Shardless/Leovold: +3 Abrupt Decay, +4 Chalice, +1 Needle, +1 Karakas, +1 maze, +3-4 Surgical; GQ vs. 0 nonbasics
* Aggro Loam/Lands: +3-4 Surgical, +1 Needle/Chalice, +0-1 Flex, +1 Karakas; GQ #1
* Stoneblade: +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Needle, +1 Notw, +1 maze, +4 Chalice/Sphere; GQ vs. 0 nonbasics

Combo
* Reanimator: +3-4 Surgical, +4 Chalice/Sphere, +1 Karakas, +1 Ith (+3 Abrupt vs. Animate Dead); GQ weak
* Sneak & Show: +4 Chalice/Sphere, +1 Karakas, +1 Needle, +1 Maze, +3-4 Surgical; GQ weak
* Omnitell:+4 Chalice/Sphere, +1 Karakas, +1 Maze, +3-4 Surgical; GQ weak
* Storm: +3-4 Surgical, +4 Chalice/Sphere, +1 Needle (if Top); GQ vs. 0 nonbasics
* Dredge: +3-4 Surgical, +4 Sphere, +1 Maze, +1 Karakas (Elesh/Kolaghan); GQ vs. 0 nonbasics
* Nic Fit (comboish): +3-4 Surgical, +4 Chalice (Sphere Worthless), +3 Abrupt decay, +1 Karakas, +1 Maze; GQ worthless
* 12post: +3-4 Surgical, +1 Karakas, +1 Maze, +0-1 Flex; GQ Incredible
* Belcher/PSI/Oops: +4 Chalice/Sphere, +1 Karakas, +3-4 Surgical; GQ worthless
* Painter: +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Needle; GQ vs. utility lands

[DNSolver]

You're definitely over-sideboarding in some matchups, such as Shardless. If you're running Sphere, it doesn't come in against decks like Delver.

[ComplexPants]

I don't think maze is a card this deck wants. We are not trying to drag games out or play tempo. If you want to deal with creatures I like deluge a lot more.


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[jdmdave]

What would you recommend? I'm trying to nail down a streamlined sideboarding plan in advance of the GP.

As for maze, I've found it pretty useful vs. reanimator with non-crop rotation hands, but I agree that its probably not necessary.

[ComplexPants]

BTW, love the signature DNSolver.

[UseLess]

Apart from monetary concerns, is there any reason for not including a Tabernacle in the deck (likely a SB card)? Is it similar to Maze of Ith in that it doesn't fit the strategy so well?

[ComplexPants]

The reason I didn't include it in my list is it doesn't help this deck win. In lands, they can go on the mana denial plan and then tax your opponent with tabernacle. We are attempting to just end the game ASAP.

Elves, grixis delver, Eldrazi (to some extent), goblins and merfolk try to go wide, but those decks are explosive and fast and we don't have enough durdle to slow them down for tabernacle to win. It is much more effective, imo to just wipe the board with deluge.

For similar reasons as above I have cut Maze from my 75. It doesn't further our game plan and doesn't sufficiently slow down the opponent, with maybe the exception of Reanimator.


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[jdmdave]

Noted. Ith is better vs Sire of Insanity/Chancellor, but Karakas is much better vs any legendary reanimation target.

What kind of changes would you make to the general sideboarding plan?

[AmokPL]

* Dredge: +3-4 Surgical, +4 Sphere, +1 Maze, +1 Karakas (Elesh/Kolaghan); GQ vs. 0 nonbasics

I think I have this match extensively covered by testing with my brother who owns it and I can say that I wouldn't bother to bring anything except 3-4 Extractions and maybe Karakas (depends on build). We already have wide access to Bojuka Bog via plenty of tutors and playing Bog in the right time is just neckbreaking for them. Add some Extractions, Ghost Quarter as they dont play basics, Needle to deal with Coliseum and there is no way we can lose it. Only games I find hard is when he is on the play and starts with god hand with Land, Led, Breakthrough, lots of dredge, Looting, lots of dredging in the first turn. Still often next turn Bog might be enough for us to push through.

[Claymore]

Is there any benefit from Boseiju? You can get it early against Miracles with Crop and then attempt to use it for uncounterable Sylvan Scrying and Into the North.

If you side in and resolve Sphere of Resistance, you can get uncounterable everything, including free Not of this Worlds. Could also enable the random Fling/Rite of Consumption path.

[uncletiggy]

After watching lands players all around the room using it to loam uncontested I'm certain there has to be. I intend to test it moving forward in the G/b list i posted on the previous page.

[DNSolver]

If you look back a few pages at my various tech attempts at Miracles, you will find Boseiju discussed. Our deck is currently not graveyard-based and that is one of the biggest strengths of the deck compared to normal lands. This is one of the reasons I don't like Crucible, Loam, etc. So Boseiju can only make land searches and potentially Rites of Consumption uncounterable. If we shift to playing Loam + Ghost Quarter which is RG Lands' plan against Miracles, we might as well play that deck IMO because we can't find Loam very reliably.

1) Rites of Consumption IS far worse than Not of This World against the rest of the format and switching weakens many matchups.
2) Uncounterable land searches aren't very good against Miracles from this deck because we aren't assembling a combo to threaten every turn, we are trying to assemble a protected comob,
3) Boarding in Sphere of Resistance to make our spells cost more just to make them uncounterable is not a good plan.
4) Rites can be "countered" by Miracles casting Swords on their own creatures.

Have I won a few games with unexpected Rites? Yes. I have also won a few games with Cloudpost + Eye + Emrakul sideboard plan. I have also won a few games with Nephalia Drownyard. I think that changing the maindeck hurts a lot of matchups and thus Rites is the weakest of these three.

I am now considering two more plans to improve the Miracles matchup:

First plan: Planeswalkers. Right now on the list of planeswalkers to test are:
1) Ob Nixilis Reignited
2) Garruk Relentless
3) Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4) Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury

Second plan: even more combo-oriented plan that keeps all fast mana to try to win as fast as possible.
-4 Sylvan Scrying, -3 Expedition Map, -(0-1) Bog
+4 Chalice of the Void, +4th Needle, +(2-3) Decay

[grmpytopdecker]

I'm a long-time Lands player and have been playing Garruk in my sideboard for Miracles and some other grindy matchups. It's a must answer for them and if you can create 2 to 3 wolves it is some real pressure


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[jdmdave]

So I came THIS close to 5-0ing the league, but lost in the final round getting turn 1ed G2/G3 by reanimator (T1 hardcast sire, T1 chancellor->ritual->animate dead

Garruk was a freaking all-star in my one miracles matchup as my opponent just couldn't remove it with terminus/stp/et al. Nissa looks promising due to the 3CMC, but I think Ob/Freyalise are just a bit too expensive.

As for general play, I do think I have a tendency to oversideboard, so I'm looking for your guys input for a general plan.

Current Board

* 4 Sphere
* 4 Surgical
* 1 Karakas
* 3 Abrupt Decay
* 1 Needle
* 1 NoTW
* 1 Garruk Relentless (Took Maze of Ith's spot)

[uncletiggy]

If you dip into bug kiora can help you rebuild and offer a diffent wincon making a 9/9 every end step as well as holding off cliq beats.

[ComplexPants]

I think I am going to give Garruk Relentless a shot. He sounds really nice for the miracles matchup.



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[jdmdave]

Reporting back after 2 4-1 League runs. Garruk is so good against miracles AND D&T that I'm considering going to 2 in the board. Something like:

* 4 Sphere
* 2 Garruk
* 1 Karakas
* 3 Abrupt Decay
* 1 Pithing Needle
* 3 Surgical
* 1 Not of this World

* League 1
* Miracles (2-0) - G1 T2 Lage with double discard backup. G2 = Turn 3 Garruk got there
* UB Reanimator (2-0) - Discard + Surgical OP
* UR Delver (1-2) - Delver, Delver, Delver, Bolt Chainlightning Bolt
* Nicfit (2-0) - Powerless
* Lands (2-0) - Hilarious matchup. Fast Mana + Crop Rotation is mean.

* League 2
* Miracles (2-0) - G1 T5 Marit with triple protection. G2 = Surgicalled all of his terminuses and dropped Garruk.
* BR Reanimator (2-1) - Crop Rotation + Surgical = lol
* BUG Delver (2-0) - Maybe we should consider another GQ? It's a stripmine vs a large portion of the format
* Painter (0-2) - Fuck Turn 1 Blood Moon
* Miracles (2-1) - G1 Lost to fast Mentor beats. G2-G3 were LONG drawn out affairs (guy had 1 minute left on clock). G2 Garruk got there, whereas G3 I basically needled Karakas/Top/Jace and got their with a T15 NATURAL dark depths.

PS. DNSolver is on the top page of the leaderboard. Teach me your sideboarding ways.

[Claymore]

If Blood Moon becomes a huge concern, you could consider using Krosan Grip instead of Abrupt Decay. You'd be able to cast it with either Elvish Spirit Guide or a Lotus Petal instead of needing both.