I have always loved sadistic sacrament and things like it, it makes me happy to see someone recommend this odd card that I love.Originally Posted by apple713
Now Playing:
Dark depths
Reanimator
MUD
Disclaimer: The above person does not claim to have knowledge pertaining to the following subject: anything. Thus, said person may not be held liable for any mishaps/explosions that his advice incurs.
I like sacrament quite a bit. It seems fine as a way to remove answers to the combo from both miracles and death and taxes but it also has legs against storm. I'll be testing a 2 of this week.
Liliana, I don't have a strong opinion on either way. Lily was great against miracles when i played 4c loam, so i could see it being a meaningful option. I'm just not sure what to take out to fit her.
Current Depths List: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bg-hexmage-depths/
What are the odds of paying the kicker on sacrament with cabal coffers? (I might be trying to be too cute) but it IS an option
Now Playing:
Dark depths
Reanimator
MUD
Disclaimer: The above person does not claim to have knowledge pertaining to the following subject: anything. Thus, said person may not be held liable for any mishaps/explosions that his advice incurs.
I'm going to start trying a Lost Legacy in my SB, similar to Sadistic Sacrament--I'll let you know how it goes. I don't use surgical in favor of Faerie Macabre to soul crush reanimator, so a Jester's Cap effect is much needed :-)
I actually created a deck around sadistic sacrament and it can be found here. The main deck was actually pretty good, but the SB needs work. No one seemed interested so the thread never got bumped. LMK if you are interested.
About the same as casting emrakul promise end so it's possible. The only issue is that sadistic with kicker can be countered.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
It's hard to say for me about Liliana. Miracles can still dick around with snapcaster to pop one out after a +1, take her to 2 counters, and force you to sac Lili to trade with the snapcaster. You also have a lot of interaction you want to keep in hand generally (Crop, Decays, NotW) and she feels pretty fragile to toss all of that away for.
4C Loam can get away with it due to Loam recursion or having other ways to protect Lili. It's certainly good against Miracles but I think they have a few ways to pressure her that it's not a clean slam dunk. Worth testing for sure.
Just because you have a liliana in play doesn't mean that you have to tick it up every turn. If you need to hold onto something you can. Although if you are eliminating their hand and they don't have a top in play to draw terminus and no karakas in play I'm not sure that you care about keeping anything because you win with the combo in that situation. The version I play has some interactions, such as the one above, that don't allow you to simply cast cards on curve and hope for the best. Also, my version of the deck runs 1 loam. Sure it's just 1 but in grindy games with sylvan library it comes out every so often.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Decklist from the $1k (see tournament report above) EDIT: Actually, on previous page...
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14583&d=287466&f=LE
Last edited by DNSolver; 01-31-2017 at 10:08 PM.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
Lost Legacy is an interesting card for the Miracles matchup, I assume you usually name Swords? Could you write down some examples of play , I'd be interested to hear about it.
It has a bit more application than that, too. Right now TES is running their win conditions out of the sideboard. If you resolve it taking Burning Wish, it can potentially steal the game on the spot.
This past week, I also tried Root Maze out of the board. I wound up playing against Bryant, and it was incredibly potent. When you set the stage for the first turn, and deploy it, it can crush ill-prepared decks. It not only cripples fetchlands, but it also hoses ready-to-use Wastelands and slows the game down significantly for opponents. He told me he actually mulliganed playing around it game two and showed respect towards it.
I'm currently trying sideboard that looks like this:
//
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Root Maze
3 Lost Legacy
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Dread of Night
1 Nether Void
1 Karakas
My main deck is adjusting to accommodate Decay. It's currently in flux, but this is the card that has more maindeck appeal to me because of its wider application and utility against some of the more popular decks of the format. That being said, I'm currently shifting around cards and carefully identifying where they should go. Some of this is meta-dependent, so nothing is ever set in stone.
Nether Void is a card I want over Trinisphere against combo and control, because it can't be Decayed and buffers the mana denial package without a full commitment to nothing but Spheres. Discard sets it up nicely and it works really well with the Carpets. I find more and more that making spells cost three more to use becomes more important rather than converting spells that cost below three to actually cost three. This becomes incredibly important against cards like Wear//Tear and Chain of Vapor, which Storm and Miracles use, respectively.
I'm interested in hearing what you find with nether void. It would slow down other decks much worse than us which is nice but it is still expensive to cast. I think that it was tried in the past and rejected because it was too slow for the matchups we wanted. I don't think that it was tested with carpet of flowers though. Either way let me know what you find. I certainly like it better than trinisphere and in your version it might work because i think you also run dark rituals too.
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Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Unless I'm mistaken, his main board is fairly typical, except for Shizo and Khalni garden.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post988299
This is very interesting, but I do have a couple questions. Right now the sideboard looks very overloaded toward combo in particular. Aren't Sphere and Root Maze doing more or less the same thing? Are there any matchups where you bring in one and not the other?
Also, what is being cut to accommodate decay? There are times I've thought about moving it to the main (esp. when playing against imperial painter -- UGH) but the list is pretty tight as is. I worry, from looking at this sideboard, that NotW is getting cut, and that card saves lives.
Thanks for any insight -- and thanks for sharing your stuff.
One last general point in relation to Lost Legacy -- if this card is doing so much work, why not include a number of cabal therapies in the discard suite? As I've gotten more used to the deck I've moved to 3 thoughtseize 3 duress and 2 therapies in the main. I find that, by and large, you usually know what you're looking for when firing one off. Plus duress/thoughtseize + therapy is hot hot fire.
I actually cut Shizo and Garden from the main. I'm still on the fence with those two utility lands. They're fine choices, don't get me wrong, but space is tight and I'm working to strengthen the list.
That being said, the sideboard has multifaceted cards that not only handle combo, but control, as well. Root Maze is a baller early on and works great with Sphere. Both of those cards punish decks that want to get ahead early and often. I've also been looking to try and fit Choke in there with Root Maze, which is a nasty lock mechanism that blue decks (almost effectively) can't escape from since their lands will always remain tapped. With the primary focus of our deck based on a land-oriented combo to begin with, we don't have to actually cast any spells to make a 20/20. (It should also be noted that Maze shines in non-fetch versions of the deck.)
Carpet shines with Maze in the control matchups when opponents are forced to lead with non-fetches to get ahead. This makes Maze great and allows us to accelerate mana without any investment - except for your opponent's lands which are tapped.
It obviously helps casting spells, but locking down an opponent's resources is helpful. Nether Void slams the door on these decks, can't be Abrupt Decayed, and slows the game down dramatically. This is highly relevant, because our discard helps slow games down when key cards are stripped and sets up taxing permanents or the combo turn. I think it's really only good in a mana-denial deck. Since we're a fast deck, leveraging tools to dynamically draw the game out using cards like Maze, Sphere and Void keeps the pressure on and levels the playing field for the mid-game.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 02-01-2017 at 11:44 PM.
Against RG lands it's better to extract their depths (probably stage in this case) and p-fire if they run it, they have no win condition after that usually. A couple people play prime time but that isn't too common. Loan will help them get good extraction targets into the yard, I don't think extracting it is the answer, plus they usually hold a thicket to protect it
Wasteland and ghost quarter are good targets too if they are running the 4 quarter version
Now Playing:
Dark depths
Reanimator
MUD
Disclaimer: The above person does not claim to have knowledge pertaining to the following subject: anything. Thus, said person may not be held liable for any mishaps/explosions that his advice incurs.
On the Lands Matchup:
I don't think that extracting their Depths / Fires is a reliable plan. First, finding an opportunity when they are tapped out shouldn't really be happening, the matchup revolves around open mana and Crop Rotations in response to things. Therefore, you can't reliably extract Fires because of Grove activation in response, and extracting their depths just isn't a good plan, because they can copy our Depths. Further, running them out of win conditions is doubtful because most Lands players will bring in a few Tireless Tracker in all matchups because of their otherwise dangerous vulnerability to grave hate.
However, there are some fringe scenarios where you have an opportunity to get a massive advantage in the matchup if your opponent taps out for something (Tireless Tracker) and you can Surgical something:
1) Surgical on Punishing Fire - should be a good spot if follow-up is Needle on Stage, attack with Hexmages / Spirit Guides.
2) Surgical on Loam - obviously good to stop their recursion
In the matchup, Needles are all stars and I typically try to name Wasteland, Ghost Quarter (if they're running it themselves), Maze of Ith, etc. in that order, unless I can get an early Surgical off on their Wastelands (this is difficult because of Crop Rotation in response). Typically you win if your opponent gets bored / impatient and tries to win, instead of trying to stop you from winning. Then, everyone puts their Crop Rotations and activated abilities on the stack, and someone or both players get 20/20s. We are typically favored in the 20/20 mirror because we have more tutors for Steppe / Karakas and we have Not of This World to protect our own 20/20 from Maze, opposing Karakas, etc. After we get a 20/20, their best weapon is probably Glacial Chasm to buy time to find Karakas / Maze.
Additionally, the matchup usually consists of both players using Thespian's Stage to copy lots of things, while not playing Depths. We typically want to copy Ghost Quarter (if it's not Needled) so that we can get through Glacial Chasm / Maze after getting a 20/20.
The matchup is incredibly complicated because we both have Crop Rotations, and we both have removal for each other's big and small threats (answers to Marit Lage, Pithing Needles vs. Krosan Grips). I haven't had the opportunity to sit down with a good lands player and play ~10 matches, but I hope to sometime.
On the Miracles Matchup:
Negator77 and I have been testing the Miracles matchup on MTGO for about 2 weeks now, where I try various sideboard plans against him, playing Miracles. Unfortunately, my replays from 2 weeks ago have been corrupted, so I can't upload them to show play-by-play. Negator can chime in with his exact sideboard plan against me, but I expect it is something like:
-4 Counterbalance
-2 Counterspell
-1 Predict?
+2 Blood Moon
+2 Wear/Tear
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Vendilion Clique (1 Karakas maindeck)
(note that there are no Surgicals coming in)
The parts of his deck after sideboarding:
1) Demands Abrupt Decay or wins (2 Mentor, 2 Blood Moon)
2) Game goes long enough, he wins immediately (1 Entreat, 2 Jace)
3) Removal for the token (4 Terminus, 4 StP)
4) Answers for artifacts + enchantments (2 Wear/Tear, 1 Council's Judgment, 1 E.E.)
5) Cantrips (4 Top, 4 BS, 4 Ponder)
We were not aiming to test each plan I tried to death, we were looking to see what cards were "scary" or felt powerful enough to put Depths in a winning spot. The simple answer is that not many of these plans were very threatening. I cleared 5 slots in my sideboard and put together various sets of 5 cards. Here is a list of some stuff we have tried to this point, with some comments:
3 Garruk Relentless, 2 Ob Nixilis Reignited: These are expensive for what we get. Garruk isn't too scary because it's very slow to make a clock, and we often want to leave wolf tokens back to protect him. Karakas is needed IMO to protect him from Clique. Ob Nixilis draws some cards, but even if he ultimates on your opponent they still have a few turns to kill you with Mentor / Entreat - I didn't feel safe even after using the ultimate (though i did win the one game I got to do that). Another planeswalker that would be interesting to test is Nissa, Vital Force, because the ultimate is pretty powerful even in our deck that plays one land per turn.
4 Rite of Consumption 1 Boseiju - ineffective due to Vendilion Clique taking it, or Swords gaining life by targeting Snapcaster or something. Against players that don't know it is coming, it could be more effective, but they are definitely going to try to set up to Clique you every turn once you reveal Boseiju tech of any sort.
4 Lost Legacy 1 Boseiju - I also boarded in Surgicals for these games, to maximize on extraction effects. The one game we tested with this where I extracted both Plows and Terminus, Negator drew 2 cards off the one naming Plow, and was able to find Clique to block -> Jace bounce + FOW my NOTW. It was so disgusting that we abandoned this pretty quickly, but I could see going back to this plan. In other games, I would only have one extraction effect and be caught in a weird spot of unsure what to name, because the cards the opponent draws could be Mentor, Jace, Blood Moon - game-ending threats most of the time... or I would draw multiple extraction effects and not much else.
3-4 Library + Eye of Ugin + Emrakul, the Promised End: Library is great. If you can clear the way for it (by discarding a counterspell or discarding / baiting a Wear/Tear or other artifact/enchantment answer) it can *really* make a difference in the game. It draws you into Abrupt Decays to answer Blood Moon, it puts together the Eye of Ugin plan by letting you hit land drops, it finds other cards... I often paid 8-12 life to be able to play some stuff out and hold up Abrupt Decay, or hit my land drop and cast a spell. Eye of Ugin was fine, didn't feel like it took too long to get to activation mana. Promised End is significantly more castable than Aeons Torn, we didn't try Coffers because I didn't want to give up a Library sideboard slot. With this plan, I was bringing in at least 2 Surgicals also, because using Surgical during their mindslaver turn can be pretty disgusting. Holding up Karakas protects your Promised End from Council's Judgment, though getting Emrakul Force'd does happen. These games also took a long time - often Emrakul would be cast 3-4 times if it wasn't Force'd the first time, though in paper these turns would not take as long. The games I cast Emrakul multiple times usually ended by me using a Brainstorm effect to set the top of their deck to 2 blanks in a row (usually a land plus Terminus / EE) and then comboing on the end step of their extra turn or on their turn after I got to untap and pass again.
Another plan I've been considering: Thrun, the Last Troll. With Karakas in play on our side, the only ways to kill it are Terminus/Council's Judgment + Clique it out of our hand, or Blood Moon -> Terminus/Council's Judgment. With multiple Thruns or Thrun + Library, this could be testable.
Hope you enjoy (or cry about) this data set on Miracles. Keep in mind that this data set is not extensive, just a preliminary feel for how games go for each plan. We have only 4-8 games on each plan.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
This is a question for the veterans and the new posters to the thread
Does anyone actually use the primer?
And if so what sections?
Are there changes to the primer that you would find useful? (Including structural / organizational changes)
I know people have requested sideboarding guides so ill take my best attempt and people can criticize / modify it as necessary.
I would like it to become a good resource for our players but feel that there is simply too much information and new players dont bother reading it. (This is evidenced by the number of questions asked on the thread but already answered in the primer.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
This is a wrong sideeboard plan for miracle ; knowing you have only 4 decay (if you bring 4 decay+ 3 krosan grip maybe I'ld side them out), keeping the counterbalance is very important, there are so many situtations where they will have more CB than you have decay and win from there. Also if CB get answered by decay that's fine their blood moon/mentor will then win form there.On the Miracles Matchup:
Negator77 and I have been testing the Miracles matchup on MTGO for about 2 weeks now, where I try various sideboard plans against him, playing Miracles. Unfortunately, my replays from 2 weeks ago have been corrupted, so I can't upload them to show play-by-play. Negator can chime in with his exact sideboard plan against me, but I expect it is something like:
-4 Counterbalance
-2 Counterspell
-1 Predict?
+2 Blood Moon
+2 Wear/Tear
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Vendilion Clique (1 Karakas maindeck)
The miracle player has to leave one terminus one swords some snappy some jace ; some counterspells. The miracle player has to keep CB in ; it is so game winning when you don't have your decay. I would say CB is as frightning as blood moon in the matchup. It just says if you don't have decay or I have more CB than you have decay you'll likely won't cast anymore spells.
What is the complete in/out that you suggest we test?
If I understand you right now, your recommended plan is:
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Terminus
-1 Jace
-1 Snapcaster
-2 Counterspell
-1 Predict
+2 Wear/Tear
+2 Blood Moon
+2 Clique
+1 Engineered Explosives
Edit: For what it's worth, Negator has said that he feels Counterbalance is unnecessary. I have been losing a lot vs his current plan, as you can tell.
If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage
My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.
I am the Legacy metagame:
-2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
-2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
-Refiner of Hogaak Depths.
Yeah this seems way better to keep the Counterbalance in ; But if the miracle player has some surgical extraction (and I recommand to test against a miracle list with them) it should bring them ; lot of miracles player plays a two off of them now that BR reanimator is present. I think playing a 4 off massacre in side is important, I would bring two against miracle answering mentor/clique/snap. Also I haven't found yet a side plan that convince me and that allows to beat consistently miracle after side. I am still looing for food for thought ; I have been even testing some altar of dementia (needs two token to win) recently, but this gets answered by wear/tear/EE and it is a little too slow against death and taxes. Lost legacy can win some games but it is not that consistant to find them and you might be dead before. I haven't tested the emrakull plan is it really something playable ; I think by the time you settle it, miracle player could have entreat you, mentor you cast a blood moon. Even the 12 post players are sometimes too slow for miracle.
I might be back to the plan of 4 library main 0 top and needle naming top ; I think when I played older versions this plan worked fine for me ; but library is not so good against tempo.decks while top was so good, not sure we need them though.
As for root maze, I haven't test it ; against which deck would you play this card ? I see it as a good remplacement for discard if it is a good card...
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