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Thread: [DTB] Turbo Depths

  1. #2401

    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    I've literally never gone away from 3 Urborg in this version of the deck. Like, here's the change log:

    June 2016: started playing the deck. After 1st challenge, -3 Into the North +3 Expedition Map
    (various Miracles sideboard changes, maindeck remains unchanged for ever)
    Top ban April 2017: -3 Not of This World +3 Sylvan Safekeeper, fix sideboard to 4 storm hate, 3 Library, 2 surgical, 1 Needle, 1 Karakas, 4 Decay
    (various alterations of 4 Sphere vs 4 Mindbreak Trap, maindeck unchanged)
    January 2018: fixed sideboard to 2 Sphere 2 Thorn, -1 Petal to +1 Dryad Arbor maindeck
    If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

    My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.

    I am the Legacy metagame:

    -2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
    -2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)

  2. #2402
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    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    First post on Source.

    I've been on Depths (or as we call it in our playgroup, Team Greece: Depths -> Debts -> Greece -> Team in front to respect traditions, we'll see if the name sticks) for a bit over two months now, deck's been overperforming at weekly tournaments, 75-80% winrate or something, losses mostly to really good Delver draws, Aggro Loam and Blood Moon, and I won a local tournament series invitational (DNSolver was in the Twitch chat! on January 21st, was cool to find out after the games) with it after switching from BR Reanimator. In Finland Aggro Loam, Maverick and DNT are excessively popular especially in bigger tournaments so I'm still on 3x Not of This World instead of Safekeeper. I think you can't really beat Loam without either NoTW or Rite of Consumption, Safekeeper just gets removed when you don't have excess land to pitch or rots in hand when there's a turn 1 Chalice.
    Current list:
    3 Expedition Map
    3 Lotus Petal
    4 Pithing Needle
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Vampire Hexmage
    1 Dryad Arbor
    4 Crop Rotation
    3 Not of This World
    3 Bayou
    1 Bojuka Bog
    4 Dark Depths
    1 Forest
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Sejiri Steppe
    1 Swamp
    4 Thespian's Stage
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Duress
    4 Sylvan Scrying
    4 Thoughtseize
    SB: 3 Sylvan Library
    SB: 2 Ground Seal
    SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
    SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
    SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 1 Karakas

    Funny enough, I think besides Blood Moon my worst matchup locally seems to be Merfolk. Phantasmal Image, Harbinger of the Tides, Chalice, Force and Echoing Truth and Clique is a lot of stuff to grind through.

  3. #2403

    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by jolssoni View Post
    Funny enough, I think besides Blood Moon my worst matchup locally seems to be Merfolk. Phantasmal Image, Harbinger of the Tides, Chalice, Force and Echoing Truth and Clique is a lot of stuff to grind through.
    Confirm, I think the Merfolk matchup is bad for us - had a couple of rounds against it myself and ended up loosing every time, even with Notw in hand.

  4. #2404
    MTGO name: Aggro4Life

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    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Athlete View Post
    Confirm, I think the Merfolk matchup is bad for us - had a couple of rounds against it myself and ended up loosing every time, even with Notw in hand.
    I think adopting the recent industry standard of Sylvan Safekeeper will help all that targeted removal. Since I booted Not of this World, I have never looked back.

  5. #2405

    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    I think I made a good case for the deck by convincing last years EW winner to play the deck
    Solnox on MTGO

    Decks: Turbo Depths, Miracoli Miracoli, Eldrazi Post, Czech Pile, Death and Taxes, Mono Red Storm,

  6. #2406
    Still Learning Legacy

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    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Has anyone tried Worldly Tutor? I recently picked up this deck (after playing a rather noncommittal version featuring wishes at Champs a couple years ago, after which I shelved it) seeing that it seems to have coalesced into a fairly optimized list and put up a few numbers. I haven't played this version against anyone yet, but after goldfishing it for a couple hours on Cockatrice, I find myself wishing my one maindeck Sylvan Library and one of the Pithing Needles were Worldly Tutors. On a couple occasions, I could have used them to set up a turn 3 win (again, just goldfishing; had Urborg and Depths but no Hexmage and Stage would have made for a turn 4 win). I'm considering giving a couple Worldly Tutors a shot.

  7. #2407
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    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Othersider View Post
    Has anyone tried Worldly Tutor? I recently picked up this deck (after playing a rather noncommittal version featuring wishes at Champs a couple years ago, after which I shelved it) seeing that it seems to have coalesced into a fairly optimized list and put up a few numbers. I haven't played this version against anyone yet, but after goldfishing it for a couple hours on Cockatrice, I find myself wishing my one maindeck Sylvan Library and one of the Pithing Needles were Worldly Tutors. On a couple occasions, I could have used them to set up a turn 3 win (again, just goldfishing; had Urborg and Depths but no Hexmage and Stage would have made for a turn 4 win). I'm considering giving a couple Worldly Tutors a shot.
    My hot take: you already spend a lot of cards as fast mana and disruption while you still need two cards for the combo. Worldly tutor adds more to this issue by taking more cards from your hand. This kind of card disadvantage is likely too much to handle. Also, it looks like Living Wish is just superior to WT. It doesn't cost you a card and gives you more options.
    Some of my friends sell records,
    some of my friends sell drugs.

  8. #2408
    Still Learning Legacy

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    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopo View Post
    My hot take: you already spend a lot of cards as fast mana and disruption while you still need two cards for the combo. Worldly tutor adds more to this issue by taking more cards from your hand. This kind of card disadvantage is likely too much to handle. Also, it looks like Living Wish is just superior to WT. It doesn't cost you a card and gives you more options.
    But Living Wish requires you to play a Hexmage in the board. The goal was for Worldly Tutor to be Hexmage #5 (and possibly 6), not #4. It seems like most people eschew the Wish plan nowadays in the "turbo" version, and after playing a janky version of Thopter Depths the last few weeks that included wishes, I understand why. It's too slow to compete with the other fast combo decks.

  9. #2409
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    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Your best bet is basically to sleeve up some and start testing. My guess is that you will end up running out of cards more often than not.

    I would endorse Tutor if you play some sort of reliable card advantage machine like Bobs or Libraries with it but as it is, not so much.
    Some of my friends sell records,
    some of my friends sell drugs.

  10. #2410

    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by caseyc View Post
    Ok, I'll base this guide off my paper list (below). My online list is a little different, for budget and paper versus online meta reasons--but both contain the Rite plan.

    4x Dark Depths
    4x Thespian's Stage
    3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4x Verdant Catacombs
    2x Bayou
    1x Llanowar Wastes
    1x Snow-Covered Forest
    1x Snow-Coverered Swamp
    1x Sejiri Steppe
    1x Ghost Quarter
    1x Bojuka Bog
    4x Lotus Petal
    3x Pithing Needle
    1x Expedition Map
    4x Elvish Spirit Guide
    2x Sylvan Safekeeper
    4x Vampire Hexmage
    4x Thoughtseize
    2x Duress
    1x Collective Brutality
    4x Crop Rotation
    4x Sylvan Scrying
    2x Into The North
    2x Gitaxian Probe

    SB:

    3x Rite of Consumption
    1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
    1x Karakas
    1x Collective Brutality
    2x Abrupt Decay
    1x Krosan Grip
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    1x Ground Seal
    1x Surgical Extraction
    2x Sylvan Library
    1x Murderous Cut (though I think this is more of a flex slot in general)

    Post-board games against Lands:

    Side in: 3x Rite of Consumption, 2x Abrupt Decay, 1x Karakas, 1x Ground Seal, 1x Surgical Extraction, 2x Sylvan Library
    Side out: 1x Dark Depths, 2x Into The North, 2x Elvish Spirit Guide, 2x Lotus Petal, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 1x Collective Brutality

    Opening hand-- high priority cards: Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle moderate priority: Ground Seal/Surgical low priority: combo pieces, except stages are nice in the early-mid game.

    Great hand example: Verdant Catacombs, Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, Ground Seal, Thoughtseize. This hand is the nuts--it does everything we want to do in the early game.

    Keepable hand example: Verdant Catacombs, Thespian's Stage, Expedition Map, Crop Rotation, Surgical Extraction, Bayou, Abrupt Decay. This hand can combo--but is weak to mana disruption. However, having Surgical will bide it time to develop into a better hand, as the loam engine will be offline.

    Unkeepable hand example: Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Dark Depths, Thoughtseize, Crop Rotation, Sylvan Safekeeper. This is a great hand in a lot of matchups. Not this one. High likelihood you get severely punished if you keep this hand.

    Basic strategy: Needle Wasteland and Ghost Quarter as fast as possible (assuming they run it, which they almost always do now), land Library, develop your mana, check out their hand with discard, interrupt their loam engine if possible. Use Karakas to deter a quick combo from them. Once you have done the above, the only thing you really have to worry about is Glacial Chasm, which many Lands players side out--though I'm not sure why. Save a discard spell for the turn you go off just to make sure they can't rotate for Chasm. The way this doesn't work against Lands is if we just get Wastelanded out of the game--hence, why Needle is such a priority. And if we don't have Needle--we need to stop the loam engine as soon as possible. Unlike some matchups, don't hold onto your Needle for the possibility of Needling Karakas or Maze of Ith--proactively stop their mana disruption. We keep Safekeeper in just in case we have the chance to attack for the win. The Decays are primarily for Trackers and the Ramunap Excavators/Crucibles I see popping up more often now. Sometimes it is correct to Decay Exploration or Manabond if you can't disrupt the loam engine.

    Post-board games against Miracles:

    Side in: 3x Rite of Consumption, 1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All, 2x Sylvan Library, 1x Ground Seal, 2x Decay, 1x Krosan Grip
    Side out: 4x Lotus Petal, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Into The North, 1x Collective Brutality, 1x Crop Rotation

    Opening hand: high priority cards-Sylvan Library, Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map. Moderate priority: Duress, Rite of Consumption, Decay (for Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Mentor). Low priority: Combo pieces. Having tutors is more flexible as your hand develops.

    Great hand example: Verdant Catacombs, Verdant Catacombs, Sylvan Scrying, Elvish Spirit Guide, Sylvan Library, Thespian's Stage, Rite of Consumption.

    Basic strategy: We want to develop our mana and land a Sylvan Library. Secondarily, we want to discard a couple of their high-impact cards (i.e. Jace, Search for Azcanta, Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Mentor, Entreat). Our first (and probably second) Needle target is almost always Jace. Then maybe Azcanta, The Sunken Ruin--but that is far less important than Jace. Our first land tutor ALWAYS gets Boseiju. That is very important. This land is a one of--and it's possible we'll never see if it we don't grab it first. Also, it helps your other Scryings resolve. Additionally, it can get locked under a Back to Basics if it comes down too late. Another thing we want to be doing in the early game is playing out annoying threats. You'll notice I leave all 4 of the Elvish Spirit Guides in. Unless it is an emergency, don't ever use those for mana in this matchup. Play these out as soon as you are able and start clocking the Miracles player. This puts a slight but significant pressure on the Miracles player to deal with them to be able to stick Jace, or have time to disrupt you in other ways. Also, they will have to spend a turn Terminus-ing or something, rather than cantripping for mentor or Entreat. Finally, these guys are important because they trade with Snapcasters. Almost always take that trade, especially if your opponent is close to 20 life. You don't want them STPing their own Snapcaster to avoid lethal from Rite. You also don't want them clocking you with Snapcaster. A couple hits from our ESG and Swordsing their own guy is no longer an out to Rite. Safekeepers can also protect your dorks from targeted removal, making the Miracles player's life even more annoying. Which, other than being kind of fun, is important in buying us time to Rite them. Discard targets depend on the board state, but usually we are discarding their high impact cards (mentioned above), Disenchents/CJs, and sometimes counter magic. We usually don't need to discard Jace because we can stick a Needle. This is a matchup where you ALMOST NEVER will be attacking for lethal post-board. That means you do everything above to set up for a lethal Rite. Most common secondary win condition is beatdown from little guys, and sometimes Rite sacrificing a Hexmage or something. Remember Hexmage is also an answer to Jace if you haven't found a Needle. You can also Rite of Consumption them with a little guy and redirect to Jace if you really need to. Though sometimes Jace really doesn't matter unless he is close to ultimate. Remember, we can out-grind Miracles with this plan. However, the trump cards they have are Mentor and Entreat. You can save a Decay for Mentor. But Entreat is tougher to deal with. Sometimes you can catch them with it in their hand early--it's almost always correct to discard it so you don't have to worry about it 10 turns later.

    I'll follow up later with a section on Death and Taxes and some other less common matchups where Rite comes in. But I gotta take a break :-)
    Ok, time for the next installment:

    Post-board games against Death and Taxes:

    In my experience, this is our hardest matchup, even with Rite. Just about every card in their deck does something we don't like. The advantage of Rite is that it shuts off Karakas, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, and the Mother of Runes + flying blocker lock. However, it makes their Batterskull and Jitte even better, and provides an alternate mode for StP: "Sacrifice target creature you control to not die." Also, unlike Miracles--DnT matches play out very differently each time, as what their hand does changes drastically each game. This dynamic makes it hard to know what to prioritize in mulligan decisions and the first couple plays of the game.

    Sideboard in: 3x Rite of Consumption, 2x Abrupt Decay, 1x Krosan Grip, 2x Sylvan Library, 1x Collective Brutality, 1x Karakas, 1x Murderous Cut

    Side out: 4x Elvish Spirit Guide, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 1x Duress, 1x Lotus Petal, 1x Bojuka Bog, 2x Into The North

    Opening hands versus DnT-- high priority cards: Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, Verdant Catacombs (having a good starting mana base is important), moderate priority cards: Abrupt Decay, Discard (only really on the play to hit Aether Vial), Sylvan Scrying to increase manabase.

    The first 1-2 turns against DnT you are 1) developing your manabase, 2) taking a look at their hand, 3) and assessing what kind of game plan they have going, based on their hand or, if you don't have a discard spell, the lines they are playing. Usually, you want to wait a couple turns to see what you want to Needle. Usually the high priority Needle targets are Wasteland and Aether Vial (as Flickerwisp at instant speed targeting your Depths also interrupts the combo). However, there are times that Port is so disruptive you need to Needle it to advance your gameplan. I have even Needled Stoneforge Mystic that had fetched Batterskull because they were land light and I needed a few turns to threaten a Rite kill. As the Rite plan usually takes several turns to assemble, you want to reduce their clock as much as possible. Karakas is a great tool is they keep a hand predicated on Thalia as their clock, and disruption. One of the strengths of Rite is that opponents mis-prioritize cards. Often, I will turn 1 Thoughtseize a DnT opponent and see a hand like Thalia, Karakas, Plains, Swords to Plowshares, Swords to Plowshares, Mother of Runes, Path to Exile--a very beatable hand if we are on Rite--and a hand with no clock when we have our own Karakas--or copy theirs with Thespian's Stage. We also always want to discard a Sanctum Prelate if we see it, because often Prelate on 2 is lights out. This is why, against an opponent who knows we are on the Rite plan (for instance in a Top 8, or a small event, or if you have been on the top tables and it is later rounds) it may be correct to not over-prioritize a Rite kill. Because if it is known, it is less effective as opponents can prioritize more appropriately. A main objective is to stop any of their approaches to go above 20 life. And, if possible, deal them a few damage so Swordsing one of their guys isn't an answer. Equipment is a likely target to get Needled or Decayed/Gripped--because it represents a fast clock and card advantage or life gain. RW Taxes adds another complication because of Magus. Against RW Taxes, discard spells in your opening hand is more important to hit Magus, Recruiter, or Mother of Runes. Also, there are opportunities to combo with their Magus, so holding onto Depths and playing it out under Magus is sometimes correct. There are probably a lot more things to say about this matchup, as it is so challenging and complex. In summary, this is a tough matchup, but I believe Rite is a viable way to win post-board games that often feel almost unwinnable otherwise. Also, Rite gains a lot of value because it is a lesser known win condition and causes opponents to mis-prioritize.

    I'm also going to post about Maverick and Blood Moon decks, in a little while.

  11. #2411

    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Hi ladies & germs,

    I'm getting into this deck - I have almost all the parts, just short a few cards here or there.
    I really want to play with DD, it looks fun.
    But I have a few questions;

    Given Wasteland is unquestionably going to be across the table in a lot of match-ups, how do we deal with it?
    What I mean is, how do we win should waste target depths & they immediately target depths with Surgical Extraction?
    Are we just straight up boned?
    Can this deck do anything sneaky in response to this line of play?

    Secondly;
    I've been considering building with Solemnity.
    Reason being, Glacial Chasm & Elephant Grass seem like a natural fit here while I assemble the pieces.
    Lessening my reliance on Urborg seems like it might increase manabase flexibility.
    Is Solemnity worth my time brewing, or is there a weakness to this line of play I should consider?

    Thanks!

  12. #2412
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    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Othersider View Post
    Has anyone tried Worldly Tutor? I recently picked up this deck (after playing a rather noncommittal version featuring wishes at Champs a couple years ago, after which I shelved it) seeing that it seems to have coalesced into a fairly optimized list and put up a few numbers. I haven't played this version against anyone yet, but after goldfishing it for a couple hours on Cockatrice, I find myself wishing my one maindeck Sylvan Library and one of the Pithing Needles were Worldly Tutors. On a couple occasions, I could have used them to set up a turn 3 win (again, just goldfishing; had Urborg and Depths but no Hexmage and Stage would have made for a turn 4 win). I'm considering giving a couple Worldly Tutors a shot.
    A bunch of players bring in surgical extraction with the idea of answering the first token and exiling the rest of the depths. This plan is often awful since careful planning can usually lead to the first token getting there or being protected. Getting a worldly tutor countered by a random surgical shuffling your deck is another downside on top of the card disadvantage and lack of versatility something like Living Wish offers when it comes to testing other tutors. Also, this would need to be auto boarded out vs Miracles since you can basically never cast this when they have two mana up and unknown cards. Predict is a card.

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Given Wasteland is unquestionably going to be across the table in a lot of match-ups, how do we deal with it?
    What I mean is, how do we win should waste target depths & they immediately target depths with Surgical Extraction?
    Are we just straight up boned?
    Can this deck do anything sneaky in response to this line of play?

    Thanks!
    If you fear that line from an opponent, be mindful of when you play the Depths. Playing an extra stage to copy their Wasteland or your own Ghost Quarter before playing Depths is a straightforward path. Leaving mana up for Crop Rotation is also an easy out. If it's a MU where you bring in your own surgicals, you can surgical depths in response and leave the other three in your deck. If they catch you, you are stuck trying to win via your small creatures or something they give you access to.

  13. #2413

    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Given Wasteland is unquestionably going to be across the table in a lot of match-ups, how do we deal with it?
    What I mean is, how do we win should waste target depths & they immediately target depths with Surgical Extraction?
    Are we just straight up boned?
    The best defense to Wasteland is Pithing Needle. There's a reason there's usually a full playset in the 75. Negator mentioned other common defenses of Crop Rotation and Ghost Quarter. In terms of Surgical Extraction, most of the time you should be winning with your first Marit Lage due to the amounts of protection we play (discard, Sylvan Safekeeper, Seijiri Steppe). If they do catch your Dark Depths, one rare line of play would be to Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog to counter the Surgical. One great piece of sideboard tech many have found success with is Ground Seal to protect against Surgical, among other uses.

  14. #2414
    Still Learning Legacy

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    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Negator77' View Post
    A bunch of players bring in surgical extraction with the idea of answering the first token and exiling the rest of the depths. This plan is often awful since careful planning can usually lead to the first token getting there or being protected. Getting a worldly tutor countered by a random surgical shuffling your deck is another downside on top of the card disadvantage and lack of versatility something like Living Wish offers when it comes to testing other tutors. Also, this would need to be auto boarded out vs Miracles since you can basically never cast this when they have two mana up and unknown cards. Predict is a card.
    Yes, I can see why it would definitely be bad against some decks like control, but there are plenty of decks in Legacy that just try to race and have few or no counter spells, so this would just be my attempt to maximize the best attempt to race from an opening hand. I fully expect the possibility that, given enough interactive decks, it may not be worth it overall and I would in fact rather have the additional Pithing Needle main or whatever. I was just curious if anyone else had tried it so I didn't waste my time doing so if it's been tried and rejected. Thanks for the comment. By the way, what do you do if they successfully remove a Marit Lage and Extract the Dark Depths? Concede? Try to beat down with Hexmages and Spirit Guides?

  15. #2415
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    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Othersider View Post
    By the way, what do you do if they successfully remove a Marit Lage and Extract the Dark Depths? Concede? Try to beat down with Hexmages and Spirit Guides?
    There are games where this will be how you win but like everything else, it depends on other things. Beatdown becomes near impossible once there is any creature with toughness >2 on the battlefield. Then there are times when your hexmage and safekeeper go all the way. It's up to you to asses the possibility of ending the game like that. Basically you just beat down until they cast a wall and assess again whether it's worth continuing.

    You can play around that Surgical also by Bojuka Bogging yourself in response. That leaves you with three Depths in your deck while Rotation -> Depths leaves you one on the battlefield.
    Some of my friends sell records,
    some of my friends sell drugs.

  16. #2416

    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by caseyc View Post
    Ok, time for the next installment:

    Post-board games against Death and Taxes:

    In my experience, this is our hardest matchup, even with Rite. Just about every card in their deck does something we don't like. The advantage of Rite is that it shuts off Karakas, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, and the Mother of Runes + flying blocker lock. However, it makes their Batterskull and Jitte even better, and provides an alternate mode for StP: "Sacrifice target creature you control to not die." Also, unlike Miracles--DnT matches play out very differently each time, as what their hand does changes drastically each game. This dynamic makes it hard to know what to prioritize in mulligan decisions and the first couple plays of the game.

    Sideboard in: 3x Rite of Consumption, 2x Abrupt Decay, 1x Krosan Grip, 2x Sylvan Library, 1x Collective Brutality, 1x Karakas, 1x Murderous Cut

    Side out: 4x Elvish Spirit Guide, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 1x Duress, 1x Lotus Petal, 1x Bojuka Bog, 2x Into The North

    Opening hands versus DnT-- high priority cards: Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, Verdant Catacombs (having a good starting mana base is important), moderate priority cards: Abrupt Decay, Discard (only really on the play to hit Aether Vial), Sylvan Scrying to increase manabase.

    The first 1-2 turns against DnT you are 1) developing your manabase, 2) taking a look at their hand, 3) and assessing what kind of game plan they have going, based on their hand or, if you don't have a discard spell, the lines they are playing. Usually, you want to wait a couple turns to see what you want to Needle. Usually the high priority Needle targets are Wasteland and Aether Vial (as Flickerwisp at instant speed targeting your Depths also interrupts the combo). However, there are times that Port is so disruptive you need to Needle it to advance your gameplan. I have even Needled Stoneforge Mystic that had fetched Batterskull because they were land light and I needed a few turns to threaten a Rite kill. As the Rite plan usually takes several turns to assemble, you want to reduce their clock as much as possible. Karakas is a great tool is they keep a hand predicated on Thalia as their clock, and disruption. One of the strengths of Rite is that opponents mis-prioritize cards. Often, I will turn 1 Thoughtseize a DnT opponent and see a hand like Thalia, Karakas, Plains, Swords to Plowshares, Swords to Plowshares, Mother of Runes, Path to Exile--a very beatable hand if we are on Rite--and a hand with no clock when we have our own Karakas--or copy theirs with Thespian's Stage. We also always want to discard a Sanctum Prelate if we see it, because often Prelate on 2 is lights out. This is why, against an opponent who knows we are on the Rite plan (for instance in a Top 8, or a small event, or if you have been on the top tables and it is later rounds) it may be correct to not over-prioritize a Rite kill. Because if it is known, it is less effective as opponents can prioritize more appropriately. A main objective is to stop any of their approaches to go above 20 life. And, if possible, deal them a few damage so Swordsing one of their guys isn't an answer. Equipment is a likely target to get Needled or Decayed/Gripped--because it represents a fast clock and card advantage or life gain. RW Taxes adds another complication because of Magus. Against RW Taxes, discard spells in your opening hand is more important to hit Magus, Recruiter, or Mother of Runes. Also, there are opportunities to combo with their Magus, so holding onto Depths and playing it out under Magus is sometimes correct. There are probably a lot more things to say about this matchup, as it is so challenging and complex. In summary, this is a tough matchup, but I believe Rite is a viable way to win post-board games that often feel almost unwinnable otherwise. Also, Rite gains a lot of value because it is a lesser known win condition and causes opponents to mis-prioritize.

    I'm also going to post about Maverick and Blood Moon decks, in a little while.
    Against Mono Red Blood Moon Decks:

    A note on game 1-- there is a temptation to concede to a turn 1 Blood Moon to not allow your opponent to know what you are on, however--the information you get over the next few turns will probably help you more than them. To concede to a turn 1 blood moon, two conditions need to be met: 1) you know which variety of Mono Red your opponent is on, and 2) they have presented a win condition that can beat a couple ESGs, Safekeepers, or Hexmages. By conceding, you've already signaled that a turn 1 blood moon is lights out for you--their deck is already pretty much sideboarded against you. You need to use game 1 to determine if they are on a) mono red sneak attack, b) 8 moon prison (with Ensnaring bridge), or c) some other jank. A far second to that, sometimes all their hand does is make a blood moon, so sometimes you can win through beatdown--though admittedly that's rare.

    Against Mono Red Sneak Attack--SB in: Karakas, Krosan Grip, 2x Abrupt Decay, Collective Brutality, 2x Sylvan Library
    SB out: Bojuka Bog, Sejiri Steppe, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Sylvan Safekeeper, 1x Into The North

    Against Moon Stompy Prison-- SB in: 2x Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, 2x Sylvan Library, 3x Rite of Consumption
    SB out: Bojuka Bog, Sejiri Steppe, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Sylvan Safekeeper, 1x Into The North, 1x Collective Brutality

    Evaluating hands on the play is easier. High priority cards: Basic lands/Fetches, Discard Spells, Combo pieces. Crop Rotation and Pithing Needle are nice insurance cards against Sneak Attack versions. Evaluating hands on the draw is much harder. You want a hand that can do 1 of 2 things: a) beat a turn 1 moon effect, or b) can punish them if they don't have turn 1 moon, i.e. has discard and a fast combo in case they don't have turn 1 moon. For example, this hand beats a turn 1 moon: Dark Depths, Abrupt Decay, Elvish Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal, Sylvan Scrying. This is an example of a hand that punishes the Mono Red opponent for not having turn 1 moon: Verdant Catacombs, Thoughtseize, Dark Depths, Crop Rotation, Elvish Spirit Guide, Vampire Hexmage, Sylvan Scrying. Against Sneak Attack, needle Sneak Attack. Against prison, Needle their planeswalkers--the foremost of which is Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Surprisingly often, you can combo off of their Blood Moon with the new ruling. So if you have Decay or Grip, you can let the play out their moon effect, play your Depths, then Decay or Grip the moon. Against the prison variant, prioritize discarding their moon effects (as multiple moons is tough), then their clock, be it Goblin Rabblemaster or Chandra. Lastly, you can discard their Ensnaring Bridges, but those are lower priority because you will eventually draw Rite, especially if you have Sylvan Library up and running. I actually think the Blood Moon deck matchup isn't abysmal. Their deck has silly amounts of variance, especially the Sneak Attack version. Just be patient, disciplined on mulligan decisions, and don't give up too easily. Very often you can win even after going to 2 life and having your board wiped by a Through the Breach -- Emrakul. I find the moon matchup to be about 50% maybe a little worse, but not much.

  17. #2417
    Member

    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Japan
    Posts

    359

    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    So, I'm working on what I want to do for GP Kyoto next month. I really don't get to play much, so I have a few things I've been thinking about but I don't have many opportunities to test. I'm going to talk about a bit about my thoughts and ask a few questions. If anyone is willing to comment, I would appreciate it.

    The maindeck I have been using has been the list that DNSolver has been playing on Magic Online. The only change is that I've been playing a Blooming Marsh over a Bayou. I recall the split being for the sake of playing around Submerge, but has anyone seen a Submerge recently? The only decks that would play that card are like RUG, Merfolk and Infect, but none of those decks seem popular enough to be concerned about (I even played against Infect at my last event and I don't even think he had Submerges). It's just better to play the 3rd Bayou, right? I'd be surprised if Bayou #3 ever punished me at this GP--the most popular decks are White or Black so they have better options.

    So my main questions are about the sideboard. This is the sideboard of the list that I last played (copied from the internet):

    3 Sylvan Library
    3 Abrupt Decay
    1 Krosan Grip
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Karakas
    1 Pithing Needle
    4 Sphere of Resistance

    So first off, I had cut a Decay for a K-Grip. It didn't come up once in my last event. Is there any reason *not* to run 4 Decay? I was also looking into possibly playing Song of the Dryads because it's a versatile mono-green removal spell, but it's fragile and I don't know that it's necessary.

    When are you bringing Sylvan Libraries in? I know it's for white decks, but I'm specifically wondering if you're siding in all three copies against Death and Taxes. Do you just cut a bunch of fast mana to make room for them? I'm debating if I want so many copies in my sideboard.

    I've lived in Japan for a long time, and I feel pretty confident in gambling on playing against literally no Storm decks at the Grand Prix. It's just not popular here--people here didn't even seem to know it was a deck until Kai Sawatari made Top 8 at the first GP Kyoto. As such, I'm not playing any Spheres in my deck. If people are playing combo decks I would expect Mono Black Reanimator or Show and Tell (it is ridiculous how much people love Griselbrand here). Also, at the last GP there was a lot of Death and Taxes, and Kai made a post on the ANT Facebook Group saying that RW Death and Taxes is getting really popular in the Tokyo area, so those are the things I want to prepare for.

    With my newfound sideboard space, this is what is on my mind:

    More Surgical Extractions: When are you guys bringing this card in other than in combo matchups? I kind of hate Surgical but it's a good hedge against Storm, probably not too bad against Show and Tell, but I can't see myself wanting it in other matchups, and I especially can't see myself wanting 3+ copies of it against any deck that doesn't play directly from the graveyard. If you had the space, would you play more than 2 copies of this effect for any other reason? I've got three copies of SE in my hypothetical board but the third copy is probably the first card that will go. I've seen Ground Seal popping up in a few places and that seems like it may be a better choice.

    Mass Removal: My first feeling is that I want a Toxic Deluge. It's versatile...but how many different decks are we going to want to bring a sweeper in against, really? Death and Taxes is the main one, with maybe Elves or something fringe as well. More narrow sweepers like Massacre and Dread of Night have glaring weaknesses in the Depths v. Taxes matchup so unless there's something I'm missing it seems like Toxic Deluge is the best option even in a world where D+T is the only creature deck. I don't know how many I want to play so I've settled on one--I don't want to devote a ton of space to the matchup because the matchup is bad enough that I don't think I gain a lot in trying to improve it (especially because it's a team event where I can also hope to depend on my teammates).

    Inquisition of Kozilek: This is actually the main thing on my mind. More discard seems like a good plan against all the combo decks so it makes sense to play these in my open anti-combo slots, and having this card against Death and Taxes seems better than the miserable feeling I have with keeping in any copies of Duress to strip away white removal. I kind of want to put as many copies of this card into my sideboard that I can get away with unless there's something I'm missing that makes it a terrible idea.

    I say all that to say that my first draft of a sideboard for the event looks like this:

    1 Karakas
    1 Pithing Needle
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Sylvan Library
    4 Abrupt Decay
    1 Toxic Deluge

    Looking at what I have here, what do you think? The one thing that sticks out the most to me is that I'm not sure how my sideboarding will look in matchups where I would want Sylvan Library. Inquisition looks like it may have overlap in a lot of the matches where I would want Library.

  18. #2418

    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Athlete View Post
    Great writeup, Felix! Congrats on the success in Frankfurt.

    Would you mind sharing your thought process in creating this decklist? Specifically interesting:
    - only 3 Hexmages?
    - 4 Urborgs? Don't you fear drawing more than one?
    - Rishadan Port, what for?
    - Maze of Ith? - I presume against Reanimator and S&T?
    - how come you chose Cabal Therapy over Thoughtseize?

    Thanks!
    Thanks

    - 3 Vampire Hexmage
    yeahh my Deck is less all in then the 6-8 fast mana lists here
    and drawing more then 1 Hexmage is in most cases bad
    I also prefere going off viva Stage to leave my mana open and see
    what his play is

    I agree that you want in the Ritual version 4 Hexmages


    - Rishadan Port
    Its one off the best cards when the game goes longer
    Its usally my first target against Miracle I try to find all 3-4 Stages
    and copy Port and try to lock them out of their W Mana and prolong the game
    to find a gap to go off

    1x Port means no Mentor t3 and t4 because then we are threatening to go off
    means Jace come down only t6 to have W open

    It also helps you in Matchups where you like more then 1 GQ like the Lands Matchup or D&T


    - Maze of Ith
    In the beginning of the development it was sometimes a 2 off in some Lists
    Its always good just to buy time and gets even better when you are able to copy it
    and set up a big Toxic
    MVP in D&T and Elrdazi Matchups also nice to stall random big Golfs or Angler Fishes

    and when it gets a Wasteland perfect way clear for the combo
    as I said in the beginning my version is way better in the mid and long game then the
    Turbo Lists while my list just lose a small % off speed -> see next post about DRS & GSZ

    - Cabal Therapy
    its clearly the best discard we can wish for
    T1 Cabal into T2 fetch Dryad Cabal Flashback// T2 GSZ Dryad Cabal Fashback is soo good vs most combo decks

    It always is strong because it gives you after the T1-T2 handdistruption the option
    to find the gap in the deff in flashback it to clear the path even against 2 STP

    The question is more why IOK over TS
    because I tend to grind out games more I found the 2 life add up most times
    but here I am not sure and test both a lot normally I side the 4 IOK vs all
    non combo decks out G2&G3 because Cabal and flashback Cabal is all we need

  19. #2419

    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by perian View Post
    Grats!
    Please also tell us about your choice of DRS main. 3 is the same number I figured out to be good. I am so happy that someone else is using DRS. I started thinking I am the only one here and it has to be wrong somehow.
    Yeahh 3 DRS is really a big thing

    Most people here play 6-8 rituals but I think T1 DRS is 90% off the time better then a Petal in hand
    you still are able to combo t2-t3 and have a better plan vs Reanimator D&T Lands and Storm
    so 4 matchups where you struggle with the ritual list

    DRS pro con
    -starting hand always as good as an ritual // in the first draw ritual gets you a faster combo but after this DRS is always better then a ritual
    -DRS gets STP perfect no STP for Marit Lage
    -aktiv Grave hate MB (Reanimator, Land, ANT vs some Past in Flame piles)
    -gives us permament Mana under Tax (really good vs D&T)
    -SSG always gives us mana under Blood Moon DRS needs a land in grave (we have enough legendary lands so play 2 -> sac 1 in the worst case)
    -DRS gives you a win under Bridge with is imp vs the 8 moon 4 bridge chandra decks witch are poping up
    -DRS drain allows us to still win after Batterskuller/jitte hits us one time because they tapp Maze
    also makes it harder for Ad Nauseum because they have virtual -2 lp

    DRS is just the 1 mana Planswalkers on legs for Legacy and helps us in many Situations
    if you donīt want to be an all in deck and have better topdecks in the long game
    I see not reason not to run him

  20. #2420

    Re: [Deck] Dark Depths

    @Arcanis Port is much less effective vs fetchlands out of Miracles. Claiming that Jace can't come down until turn 6 isn't quite accurate, because if they leave a fetchland up Port can't tap them out. Additionally, if you are spending two mana to tap down their land on turn 6, you might not be able to combo unless you have Urborg. Also, DRS is rather poor vs Storm IMO, and Reanimator is favorable overall without it.

    @Jolssoni Welcome to the source and the best, most helpful deck thread. Where are you in Greece? Going to be in Thessaloniki for March and April.

    @Namida Interesting idea to board into more discard against the combo decks, rather than lock pieces. This is something I actually haven't considered. Perhaps a better discard spell than Inquisition, though, because Inquisition is a bit poor against Show and Tell. Hymn seems like it might not be castable in some situations, though, especially if you are on 3 Urborg like me. Not sure if there is other playable discard besides Therapy, though.
    If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

    My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.

    I am the Legacy metagame:

    -2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
    -2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)

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