I'm just getting back into legacy after a 4 year break and I don't have many resources at the moment, so I wanted to know: how essential is Chalice of the Void in the sideboard? I've noticed every build I've seen of Turbo Depths runs it, but I'm not sure exactly what it's there for. What matchups is it used in? And how much of an upside is it to play it on 1 while we run so many 1 cmc spells ourselves?
Would anyone consider running choke in the board? Seems like a nasty turn 1-2 play. That would devastate miracles, delver, deathblade decks. Not sure if it is totally needed though with the 4x needles.
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To me, Choke seems like it would only be good against decks that we already roll pretty hard.
How important is to include maze and a single sphere of resistance in the sideboard? are absolutely necessary? I don't get the point..
Another thing.. pros and cons to run steely resolve in the main? or maybe is better in the side?
The single Sphere of Resistance is just another Chalice of the Void effect against spell-based combo decks. The singleton Maze can be tutored for with any of our land searches and gets boarded in against just about every deck with creatures. You could instead run it in the main over Bojuka Bog.
Steely Resolve probably changes the Death and Taxes matchup drastically. Could be good as a 2-of in the sideboard or split between main and side if you cut some bad cards.
Actually the primary reason for Chalice in the board (though it does help immensely against combo) was for miracles. It improves the match up tremendously.
The original versions of the deck (that used to run 4 Simian Spirit guide!!) ran 4 Steely Resolve. To be honest that was a long time ago and I had forgotten about the card. I wonder if its time to test it again, as I can see it being very helpful against DnT.
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Not of this world is better than steely resolve, I have tested steely resolve during the first version of the decks and the card is too slow doesn't answer flickerwisp on steely + mother+flying blockers
where you can't give pro white with sejirii steppe.
The best way to beat death and taxes is a playset of not of this world true story.
I would be gratefull if my last version of the deck is changed in the primer. I am on that and haven't changed the deck for like 5 months now while still testing other stuff.
Might update to some bayou cause TT doesn't see much play anymore but there is still infect with submerge in side though.
I don't know why more people plays expedition map this card is better than sylvan scrying.
A turn one expedtion map with a stage or urborg, is often a turn 3 token so it needs to be fow if opponent doesn't have the wasteland.
And yes the best way to beat miracle is having both surgical and chalice in side and answers to CB with decay/grips. Not sure we want four of each.
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Khalni Garden
4 Mana Confluence
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Not of This World
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
What do you play chalice on against miracles? 1 or 2?
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chalice @1 shut off swords+bs+ponder+top
the best you can do is turn one needle/map/duress on urborg/thespian
turn two chalice@1
turn three four token
they need their disenchant/wear tear/fow to have an answer
its just really good at what it does. I don't really know how expensive they are but id say they are pretty important. See adrieng's response below. I almost always play it for 1. Only rare situations would have me play it for 0. There are a few situations I play it for 2. When i'm playing against lands (punishing fire and life from the loam), against tees decks because they don't run 1 drops, and probably some other matches I'm not thinking of right now. Oh ya, Against burn sometimes for price of progress.
i've never really found maze all that useful. Its great if you draw into it but id rather just have what i need to win instead of something that prolongs the game. See adrieng's response on steely. If you want to buy time, id say that chalice does a better job.
updated primer with your current list posted here
good reasons to run Chalice
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Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Got utterly destroyed by Big Red Sneak Attack. Even with Thoughseizes and T3 combo pieces in hand.
Big read (and painter) can be a real challenge because of turn 1 blood moon. Naturally a bad matchup because of land hate.
Hey, quick question, [card]vesuva[/card] doesn't work with the combo because it copies as it entered the battlefield right? I was starring at it last night and thinking that plus crop rotation could be epic.
Vesuva does not work with the combo because it would enter play as Dark Depths with the counters. Stage works because it is already in play when it copies Dark Depths. Vesuva can be useful against decks like lands where they have lots of great targets to copy. In general though, the uses are more corner case (like say a 2nd copy of bog or steppe in odd scenarios) than necessary.
Thoughts on Ancient Tomb in this deck? Pulling some Lands tech for this deck.
For turn 3 combos, it doubles as another Urborg in that you can use it to activate Stage on Depths with one land.
It also makes your Crop Rotations double as fast mana post board for playing Chalice on one on turn 1. You don't need a spirit guide or petal to do this, just a crop rotation, if you have Ancient Tomb in the deck.
If maindeck, could allow Needle plus Map on the same turn.
played a 19 man monthly legacy tourney first time with this deck and its amazingly fun to play. a couple of advantages maybe because they assume we are playing the slow controllish lands deck and they are not familiar with some of our cute plays and the interactions (specially not of this world).
2-0 (1-0) against animator
discard discard then he got tyrant first but ran out of gas to bounce my permanents and i was able to resolve another marit lage after he bounced of the first one. game 2 is easy mull to leyline for me.
2-1 (2-0) Infect
i had a god draw, play first and keeping. Dark Depths, petal, petal, hexmage... i thought of doing it end of turn but was scared of stifle or wasteland and my hand is allin material so i went for it.... turn 1 marit lage! he probes me and conceeded..
SB i didnt know what deck he has and assumed maybe SnT, Storm or Delver so i board in my chalices. apparently he is on infect and i died on turn 2 when he forced my turn 1 chalice, would have won if i did.
game 3 i played a bit tight and controllish with turn 1 chalice w/o combo. Early crop to maze helped me a lot to buy time for marit lage and swing back.
2-1 (3-0) eldrazi
game one on play with combo is easy. game 2 he TKS me to take hexmage with wasteland and karakas backup so i cant do much.
game 3, kept a hand with 2 depths, hexmage, urborg, tutors. i thought i can race him but he played wasteland early followed by karakas and i cant find my pithing needles!!! i decided to crop rotate for maze to stall the 4/4 endless one attacker but he dropped an reality smasher.
here is the game winning play, i drew and played thespian so my board is urborg, thespian, depths, maze, forest and hexmage with elvish guide, depths and NotW in my hand.. im down to 2. he has wasteland, karakas, 4/4 endless, reality smasher, land land... and declared attack
before blockers i sac hexmage to remove the counters from DD, he confirmed that my token is legendary and he said ok to resolved, ability on stack he wastelanded my maze, i responded by untapping the endless one, token appears he tried to bounce by karakas, i responded by NotW, declared blocker on reality smasher... survives and swings back FTW! awesome feeling. :)
i have to go off that turn and i have a couple of lines to take depending on his move but i think i can get marit lage even if he attack first respond with wasteland on depths, i will copy with thespian and still can counter karakas.
ID ID for the next two rounds and split the top8 prizes, very boring waiting for 2 hours to split and they gave me a look when i said i wanted to play for more and not to split. haha
here's my list.
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Senjiri Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Into the North
3 Pithing Needle
3 Not of This World
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Tabernacle
What made you go 4 leyline? Expecting dredge and reanimator in your meta? I am currently playing surgical instead of leyline.
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Its something I've considered, but never actually tested mainly because chalice isn't in the board of my version taking away some of the Tombs utility. Tomb is interesting though, the life loss is unlikely to be relevant in most match-ups and it does also play through Daze very nicely with Map/Needle on turn 1. A turn 2 board of Tomb and one of either Stage or Depths won't set very many alarm bells off either at first. I doubt many people would play around the Crop + Guide combo in that spot until they've seen it happen. Some may even consider wasting the Tomb or combo land in that spot leading to a gross blowout.
Chalice is probably just as good if not better against those matches. It can be cast before turn 4 and is still useful where as leyline is dead. Chalice also has other applications that leyline doesnt.
You could run ancient tomb but it could we can your man I base below the recommended level. If you check primer I've outlined the minimum Manno face that you should kind of use as a guideline. If you go below the amount of wins that produce Black or green then you're going to start risking not being able to cast your critical spells in exchange for a possible slight advantage in very narrow cases.
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Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
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