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Thread: [Deck] Turbo Depths

  1. #2801

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Vervandi View Post
    You can only use it on Opponent's permanents. Card's pretty great though!
    Bah! stupid missed word!

  2. #2802

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    I can`t understand why everybody here is so pleased about trophy! One of the main reasons, what made Turbo Depths so good and better than other 2-Cardcombos was the fact, that it was really hard to attack us. Our only real vulnerability was the token wasteland and karakas, but that were fine to handle with Needle. So many decks will play throphy and now have annother real angle to attack us. Hopefully I am false, but I think Turbo Depths isn`t playable anymore, at least in the Turbo shell. Maybe it`s better to go midrange now, that are the decks for which trophy is made for.

  3. #2803

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinkhole View Post
    So many decks will play throphy
    What do you mean? Only BGx decks can play this and there are literally four of them around and we don't even know if this card can make them competitive again. This also fight for space vs decay, edict and push.
    This acts exactly like Edict in 2x1 us after copying, still requires two untapped lands, can be discarded. They also gives you a free forest to be cropped to get one of your pieces back.
    The combination of this + surgicals is pretty brutal, but so is wasteland + surgicals and we are still around.

  4. #2804
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax- View Post
    What do you mean? Only BGx decks can play this and there are literally four of them around and we don't even know if this card can make them competitive again. This also fight for space vs decay, edict and push.
    This acts exactly like Edict in 2x1 us after copying, still requires two untapped lands, can be discarded. They also gives you a free forest to be cropped to get one of your pieces back.
    The combination of this + surgicals is pretty brutal, but so is wasteland + surgicals and we are still around.
    For Turbo / Slow Depths, the print of this card seems like a double-edged sword to me. Let's hope that this will help us more than harm us.

    That being said, we have a lots of changes in the meta theses last months. Very nice for legacy!

  5. #2805

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkgobs View Post
    For Turbo / Slow Depths, the print of this card seems like a double-edged sword to me. Let's hope that this will help us more than harm us.

    That being said, we have a lots of changes in the meta theses last months. Very nice for legacy!
    Yes its definetly a double edged sword, but I think that at the end of the day, this card give us a more flexible way to answer problematic permanents that are played in multiples in difficult match ups like DnT and Lands. Its also pretty good in matchups where you needed decay for answer Blood Moon but it was too narrow (aka Show and Tell).

  6. #2806
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    This card is tempting because it answers a lot of different permanents, but how many to we really need to answer? I mean, we aren't even playing a full 4 maindeck Pithing Needle in most lists, usually 3 with the 4th in the board. I feel like Needle is the natural place to sub this in, because it answers the same problematic permanents (Jace, Karakas, Wasteland.) Those are already answered by a 1 generic mana spell with Needle. It's more efficient, and in regards to what our deck wants to do, functionally the same. We can needle Griselbrand and then steamroll the bitch with Marit Lage. We sideboard in Rite of Consumption against problematic permanents so we can sacrifice the token FTW. We also already have a land-based option that deals with Karakas/Wasteland with Ghost Quarter, one that is conveniently found with 8-12 tutors.

    I've gone down the road of trying to play a mid-range depths list, and it was truly (IMHO) only playable because of the power level of Deathrite Shaman. It allowed the same acceleration as Lotus Petal/ESG while still being a threat, sometimes one that could win games. Dark Confidant isn't a threat like DRS was; it's a card draw engine that occasionally attacks for 2, if it lives. I'm convinced we still want to focus on being fast, Confidant just makes the deck slightly more robust by absorbing removal and drawing us cards. As with any card in any combo deck, the card needs to fit a very specific purpose, not a general purpose like Assassin's Trophy.

    TL;DR - Is this deck in search of generally powerful cards like Assassin's Tropy? I tend to think 'no.' We are looking for specifically powerful answers to problems the deck faces. Abrupt Decay is a way to deal with permanents that bog us down, like Chalice@1, Blood Moon, Counterbalance, Back to Basics, Ensnaring Bridge, Delvers, Equipment. All of those are dealt with by Decay with the incredible legacy upside of being uncounterable. I think if we wanted a generic answer, we could have been using Beast Within, Maelstrom Pulse, splashing for Vindicate or Oblivion Ring.
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  7. #2807

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    This card is tempting because it answers a lot of different permanents, but how many to we really need to answer? I mean, we aren't even playing a full 4 maindeck Pithing Needle in most lists, usually 3 with the 4th in the board. I feel like Needle is the natural place to sub this in, because it answers the same problematic permanents (Jace, Karakas, Wasteland.) Those are already answered by a 1 generic mana spell with Needle. It's more efficient, and in regards to what our deck wants to do, functionally the same. We can needle Griselbrand and then steamroll the bitch with Marit Lage. We sideboard in Rite of Consumption against problematic permanents so we can sacrifice the token FTW. We also already have a land-based option that deals with Karakas/Wasteland with Ghost Quarter, one that is conveniently found with 8-12 tutors.

    I've gone down the road of trying to play a mid-range depths list, and it was truly (IMHO) only playable because of the power level of Deathrite Shaman. It allowed the same acceleration as Lotus Petal/ESG while still being a threat, sometimes one that could win games. Dark Confidant isn't a threat like DRS was; it's a card draw engine that occasionally attacks for 2, if it lives. I'm convinced we still want to focus on being fast, Confidant just makes the deck slightly more robust by absorbing removal and drawing us cards. As with any card in any combo deck, the card needs to fit a very specific purpose, not a general purpose like Assassin's Trophy.

    TL;DR - Is this deck in search of generally powerful cards like Assassin's Tropy? I tend to think 'no.' We are looking for specifically powerful answers to problems the deck faces. Abrupt Decay is a way to deal with permanents that bog us down, like Chalice@1, Blood Moon, Counterbalance, Back to Basics, Ensnaring Bridge, Delvers, Equipment. All of those are dealt with by Decay with the incredible legacy upside of being uncounterable. I think if we wanted a generic answer, we could have been using Beast Within, Maelstrom Pulse, splashing for Vindicate or Oblivion Ring.
    Biggest difference is that Needle can be destroyed very easily, this is instant speed and if you want to counter it you need to tap in your turn. Its way better than decay vs Lands for example, or vs SnT where Decay can't destroy Omniscience/Sneak/Leyline.
    I think that being counterable is not a big deal, most of the decks where you want it don't even play counters, you still want a couple of Decays in your board anyway for things like Miracles. That's not an upgrade, its just another tool that we could play with and a VERY flexible one.

  8. #2808

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    This card is bad news for us, though it won't see play in aggroish decks such as delver cause it gives a free land. It will see play in bug control/nic fit maybe maverock.
    I don't think we want this card, decay is the better card against back to basics counterbalance and delver ; i know it can answers stuff like karakas but we already have lot of answers to it.
    Miracle is already a very favorable matchup for my version so we don't need more answers to jtms. Answering the combo in instant speed is bad news but as said this will see play only in control/slow decks
    which were good matchups but here they will have new tools to play with that's fair.
    I don't think it will be a four off though ; decay is still uncounterable king to answer delvers.

  9. #2809
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Does your version play Chalice?
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  10. #2810

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    no chalice but 4 library

    guide and petal is not the way to go imho



    // 60 Maindeck
    // 8 Artifact
    4 Expedition Map
    4 Pithing Needle

    // 4 Creature
    4 Vampire Hexmage

    // 4 Enchantment
    4 Sylvan Library

    // 4 Instant
    4 Crop Rotation

    // 26 Land
    4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Thespian's Stage
    4 Dark Depths
    4 Blooming Marsh
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Sejiri Steppe
    3 Llanowar Wastes
    4 Khalni Garden
    1 Maze of Ith

    // 14 Sorcery
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Sylvan Scrying
    3 Duress


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 3 Creature
    SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

    // 3 Enchantment
    SB: 3 Dread of Night

    // 6 Instant
    SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

    // 1 Land
    SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

    // 2 Sorcery
    SB: 2 Toxic Deluge


  11. #2811
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    I'd probably make room for 3 Assassin's Trophy and 1 Ramunap Excavator maindeck and keep 3 Abrupt Decay in the sideboard once Assassin's Trophy becomes legal.

  12. #2812
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by adrieng View Post
    no chalice but 4 library

    guide and petal is not the way to go imho



    // 60 Maindeck
    // 8 Artifact
    4 Expedition Map
    4 Pithing Needle

    // 4 Creature
    4 Vampire Hexmage

    // 4 Enchantment
    4 Sylvan Library

    // 4 Instant
    4 Crop Rotation

    // 26 Land
    4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Thespian's Stage
    4 Dark Depths
    4 Blooming Marsh
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Sejiri Steppe
    3 Llanowar Wastes
    4 Khalni Garden
    1 Maze of Ith

    // 14 Sorcery
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Sylvan Scrying
    3 Duress


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 3 Creature
    SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

    // 3 Enchantment
    SB: 3 Dread of Night

    // 6 Instant
    SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

    // 1 Land
    SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

    // 2 Sorcery
    SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

    The Librarys do indeed give you big game against Miracles. I'm really curious about the Khalni Garden/Cabal Therapy synergy. It seems very cool, honestly. You end up with 10 discard instead of 8 discard + 2 Safekeeper, and the Therapies double up. When the answers are so narrow to the combo Therapy seems pretty good. This really has me intrigued. I was considering moving the Dryad Arbor to the maindeck for GSZ, which opens up Therapy shenanigans while also protecting against Edict effects in the main. I also noticed you are playing zero basics and zero fetches. I know the theory behind that (Submerge mostly). You are already banking on opponents playing Wasteland on Depths/Stage so I can see the extra non-basic lands being no problem (other than against Blood Moon, but you board Decay's against them already and you name it t1 with Therapy if you have time, on the play or on the draw without a t1/Chalice or Moon.)

    How often are you chump blocking with plant tokens, or is it just for Therapy? Man, it makes me want to sideboard Natural Order and Progenitus...
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  13. #2813

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Yeah the khalni garden are mostly for cabal therapy and edict.
    It can also help chumpbllocking sometimes creatures ; it is a really good synergy and can give lot of value with therapy.
    Cabal therapy is the best discard in my list but it must be played properly what's sometimes not so easy, you often have to wait beofre casting contrary
    as others discards, against death and taxes you can wait for them playing stoneforge or recruiter etc... naming the right choice taking bs with others discards. and so on.

    Didn't thought of Natural order but for which matchups ? Death and taxes ? Dread of night is just better here.

    A single dryad arabor is not enough for therapy you need the 4 garden and not playing acceleration ; cause garden comes tapped.

    You really want the flashback option with therapy.

    As said before I don't like bojuka bog main, maze is way better.

  14. #2814
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Good thoughts, not sure I agree completely on all of them (mostly disagree with no Bog maindeck and fast mana being bad, I think both are fantastic.) However, it's definitely got me thinking. Natural Order would be an altenative combo. They board in hate for Depths, you board in another combo they have to play around. Maybe Progenitus isn't the right card, maybe Worldspine Wurm is the better avenue. It's just an idea anyways, just another cool interaction that is possible, but not necessarily good. If Wurm gets Edicted you just get three 5/5's to smash their face in (not to mention it goes back into your library after edict so you can have another shot if you draw another Natural Order.) People will play around Marit Lage and then lose to Wurm.

    I think there is some opportunity to use 1-2 Cabal Therapy and just have Arbor/1x Khalni Garden in the deck to utilize it. Both do what you want separately without needing to 'combo' together. Against edict decks Garden can be tutored the same as Arbor with Scrying/Map/Rotation. The only downside (in my version) is that Garden can't be tutored with Verdant Catacombs (but that is a minor thing.) I was already playing 2x basic Swamp in my deck, which is not the same as others, which was a concession to splashing in 3 more black cards with Dark Confidant. I could probably cut that 2nd Swamp for Khalni Garden. EDIT: I'm playing Bob's too, so Therapy can use him as fodder as well if I need the discard or if I draw multiples.

    I can see very powerful opening plays: t1 Urborg + discard, t2 Garden Therapy twice. In the fast mana versions Lotus Petal can enable t1 Garden + Petal + Therapy twice. These are very powerful interactions that I need to explore further. I know I have at least 1x Khalni Garden in my collection so I can definitely test some interactions out.

    Theoretical List:

    4x Vampire Hexmage
    3x Dark Confidant
    3x Elvish Spirit Guide
    1x Sylvan Safekeeper
    1x Dryad Arbor
    4x Thoughtseize
    2x Duress
    2x Cabal Therapy
    4x Crop Rotation
    3x Sylvan Scrying
    2x Expedition Map
    4x Lotus Petal
    3x Pithing Needle
    1x Green Sun's Zenith
    4x Verdant Catacombs
    1x Bayou
    2x Blooming Marsh
    1x Swamp
    1x Forest
    1x Sejiri Steppe
    1x Bojuka Bog
    1x Ghost Quarter
    1x Khalni Garden
    4x Dark Depths
    4x Thespian's Stage
    3x Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth

    Sideboard
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Golgari Charm
    3x Abrupt Decay
    2x Rite of Consumption
    3x Hymn to Tourach
    1x karakas
    2x Sylvan Library


    The sideboarded hymns are harder to cast without 2nd Swamp, and the Charms should probably be Dread of Night because of Dark Confidant.
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    One thing is sure: all our lists should include some basics now that assassin's trophy exists.

    (And for those who are still on the submerge-proof plan... Are you really encountering enough submerges nowadays, so that blooming marsh is worth it? For me, I haven't seen one submerge in my five last "big" paper tournament, and it doesn't look like it's going to change so... )

  16. #2816
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkgobs View Post
    One thing is sure: all our lists should include some basics now that assassin's trophy exists.

    (And for those who are still on the submerge-proof plan... Are you really encountering enough submerges nowadays, so that blooming marsh is worth it? For me, I haven't seen one submerge in my five last "big" paper tournament, and it doesn't look like it's going to change so... )
    My blooming marshes are simply because I only have 1 bayou. My first priority is to finish my set of Force of Will, then I'll get Bayou #2 and #3. It's not because of Submerge, haven't seen that card in a long time. I find the manabase to be rock-solid, even without the other 2 bayous. They are an obvious upgrade, but not necessary 90% of the time.

    You make a good point about basic lands, but I'm not sure how many we can actually afford to play. I've had up to 4 before (2 each swamp/forest), but it sacrificed other slots. Where we are only using 4 fetchlands in most cases, 3-4 fetchable lands should be plenty. Assassin's Trophy is an unknown quantity ATM, however, we have tools against it: when a land is targeted, we CropRot it into something else. We don't have a lot of non-land permanents that matter (Pithing Needle, Sylvan Library, Hexmage, maybe Dark Confidant.) Needle is probably the worst hit for us because it protects from other angles. We can work around AssTrophy targeting Hexmage with Crop Rotation, same as with any other removal spell. If AssTrophy becomes very prevalent, we probably adjust to 4x Needle, maybe squeeze in a 3rd basic land. This all assumes we haven't drawn one of our 8 discard spells to get rid of it, too.

    Is AssTrophy really that bad for us? Against our deck, it's basically an instant speed Sinkhole that gives us a basic. It's the Ghost Quarter equivalent of Vindicate. Their only real angle of attack with it is to kill lands, and we are uber-equipped at finding lands. We're playing in the range of 8-12 land tutors, additional draw engines (Library, Confidant) and fast mana sources. I'll have to see how it pans out, but overall it doesn't seem unbeatable.
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  17. #2817
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    ... Assassin's Trophy is an unknown quantity ATM, however, we have tools against it: when a land is targeted, we CropRot it into something else.
    [...]
    Is AssTrophy really that bad for us? Against our deck, it's basically an instant speed Sinkhole that gives us a basic. It's the Ghost Quarter equivalent of Vindicate. Their only real angle of attack with it is to kill lands, and we are uber-equipped at finding lands.
    Don't forget we're playing a combo deck, and we have to kill the opponent before he kills us (pretty obvious, i know^^). If you're mid-combo, and the former thespian's stage now D.Depths without counters get destroyed, IF you still have G open to cast crop rotation, that's something at least indeed, but let's face it:
    1) often we are in a race and that 1-2(-3) turns delay we'll get you killed and
    2) you are then in a very bad spot, not talking about the fact that you used your crop and cannot use it again to fetch a Sejiri's Steppe to play around blockers, for instance.


    About the basics, I play 1 Forest and 1 Swamp, and that went very well for me so far. But we'll see with AT, maybe 3 is needed. I don't have enough space for 4 basics for sure.



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  18. #2818
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    That's where the fast mana comes into play. In many control/grindy matches we cut fast mana. We may need to keep Lotus Petal/ESG in the deck post-board to speed the deck up. We can cut some fast mana, but not all of it. Remember that they have up to 4 copies of Assassin's Trophy, maybe 5-6 depending on Snapcaster Mage and time allowed to get to 4 mana. We have twelve answers to Assassin's Trophy with Crop Rotation, Duress, and Thoughtseize. I'm not saying it's going to be simple or easy, but the numbers are in our favor. It might become a situation where we board in Surgical Extraction, which is not normally boarded in against decks like BUG Control/Shardless (the deck I'm thinking will most likely use Assassin's Trophy.) BUG Delver doesn't want to feed us lands; they might sideboard a couple copies to deal with Pithing Needle so they can wasteland us, but at that point they are fighting our protection, not our combo. AssTrophy on Needle means AssTrophy isn't killing Stage/Depths.

    Again, I want to be clear: I'm not saying it will be simple or easy, but the sky is not falling. This deck still has legs.

    EDIT: I played a couple of matches on Magic Workstation with the new GSZ/Therapy/Khalni Garden/maindeck Dryad Arbor setup. It wasn't to test against good pilots, just to get some time working the deck. T1 Duress, t2 Therapy + Verdant > Arbor/recast Therapy was excellent. It bought me so much time, even though I didn't really need it.
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  19. #2819

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    We have twelve answers to Assassin's Trophy with Crop Rotation, Duress, and Thoughtseize. I'm not saying it's going to be simple or easy, but the numbers are in our favor.
    I don't think Crop Rotation will help in most scenarios. Your opponent will likely try to hold Assassin's Trophy until after your Dark Depths has the counters removed (i.e., you've already lost your original Depths or your Vampire Hexmage). In response to the Marit Lage trigger they will attempt to destroy your Depths. You could Rotate the zero counter Depths but you were going to get a basic land from the Trophy anyway. If you happen to have another land to Rotate and another two mana, then sure, you could bring in another Stage and copy the Depths but that's a ton of mana and resources.

    EDIT: I guess in the above scenario Trophy essentially a Ghost Quarter that you can't stop with Pithing Needle or force into action with your own Ghost Quarter. You can only force it into action with targeted discard.

  20. #2820
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by filln View Post
    I don't think Crop Rotation will help in most scenarios. Your opponent will likely try to hold Assassin's Trophy until after your Dark Depths has the counters removed (i.e., you've already lost your original Depths or your Vampire Hexmage). In response to the Marit Lage trigger they will attempt to destroy your Depths. You could Rotate the zero counter Depths but you were going to get a basic land from the Trophy anyway. If you happen to have another land to Rotate and another two mana, then sure, you could bring in another Stage and copy the Depths but that's a ton of mana and resources.

    EDIT: I guess in the above scenario Trophy essentially a Ghost Quarter that you can't stop with Pithing Needle or force into action with your own Ghost Quarter. You can only force it into action with targeted discard.
    It slows us down until we can play around it, yes. Decks that play Assassin's Trophy will also be playing Diabolic Edict (most likely.) It's going to be a slower matchup anyways. We may have to jam a combo to get AssTrophy out of the way, and then rebuild. That's not an unlikely scenario; I've gone into the combo blind sometimes because a) if they don't have the answer, I win and b) I have the means to rebuild the combo in hand. It's like running a threat into a counterspell so you can land another threat. Sometimes you just have to let them win the stack so you can run them out of relevant resources and rely on the redundancy of your deck.
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