[Deck] Turbo Depths

[caseyc]

How do you guys board vs lands?

I typically board out nearly all the discard spells as they're usually bad but thinking about it, Crop Rotation is so huge in the matchup that keeping them in might be important.

Hey Solnox-- I have had a lot of wins over lands in the past few months, largely on the back of Rite of Consumption. But how you board depends a lot on your build/sb. For me, I board out all 8 discard spells, and board in 3x Rite of Consumption, 1x Karakas, 1x Ground Seal, 1x Surgical Extraction, 1x Sylvan Library, and 1x Abrupt Decay (the decay is just because it is sometimes useful, and I am taking out 8 cards).

I just take things slow and Needle Wasteland and Ghost Quarter (if they play it--most do these days), shut down their loaming if possible, and set up for a killer Rite of Consumption. The only risk is if they fast combo--but we have a lot of ways to stop that, including Karakas. I also just mess around with them/slow them down as much as possible with Bojuka Bog, etc. I use my stages to copy all sorts of their stuff, which can be a useful mindgame to play. I definitely tear apart Lands players who don't know the matchup well. But even an experienced Lands player is in trouble in SB games when you have Rite of Consumption. Also, Rite shores up a lot of our bad matchups, like New Miracles and DnT (and random ensnaring bridge/prison decks).

That being said, Game 1 can be rough. You basically respond to what you think they have--and try to keep them from loaming/explorationing at all costs. Sometimes if you can pretend you are some random BUG deck for the first couple turns, they will play out a Depths and you can steal the game. Wait to play pithing needles until you know what is critical to name for the situation.

I love playing against Lands because it is so interactive--and I know the matchup well enough now that I am like 80%+ against lands (some of that has to do with our deck being less of a known quantity though).

[solnox]

I've had a largely positive win rate vs Lands with rite etc.

I've been advocating for rite for a while now as its good vs DnT, Lands, Bridge decks. I disagree that its good vs new Miracles tho. The large amount of counterspells still make it super risky without Boseiju. If you're playing Boseiju still, its pretty good.

I just wanted to know how the community typically boards. Im starting to lean toward going out -4 Seize, -4 Fast mana and keep in 4 Duress

I usually board +Karakas, +2 Rite of Consumption, +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Library, +2 Surgical, -4 Duress, -4 Seize,


However much I like rite, I've been testing the following Sideboard to success lately.

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
2 Surgical Extraction

An extra threat vs DnT, Miracles and other decks where you cannot typically go fast as well as being able to be protected by Safekeeper has been insane.

It might be possible that I can go down on the Cage, 1 Tracker to fit in Rites but this has been working out pretty well.

[carlinms]

Has anyone tried Carpet of Flowers? I've been trying 1 lately against blue wasteland decks and it has been helpful.

[aedrew]

I have had success against Lands (though not based on a lot of matches) using a different sideboarding technique.
They have so many ways to stop the token: Wasteland, GQ, Maze of Ith, Karakas, and tutors and recurrence for these plus their own Needles. Plus, I want my Needles to stop them without messing up my game plan. So I usually board out fast mana and combo pieces for graveyard hate and more threats and try to just manage their graveyard and beat down with creatures. I think my last games I did something like:

-3 Dark Depths
-4 Lotus Petal
-2 Into the North
-2 Not of this World

+2 Surgical Extraction
+3 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Karakas
+2 Tireless Tracker
+2 Abrupt Decay

[caseyc]

I've had a largely positive win rate vs Lands with rite etc.

I've been advocating for rite for a while now as its good vs DnT, Lands, Bridge decks. I disagree that its good vs new Miracles tho. The large amount of counterspells still make it super risky without Boseiju. If you're playing Boseiju still, its pretty good.

I just wanted to know how the community typically boards. Im starting to lean toward going out -4 Seize, -4 Fast mana and keep in 4 Duress

I usually board +Karakas, +2 Rite of Consumption, +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Library, +2 Surgical, -4 Duress, -4 Seize,


However much I like rite, I've been testing the following Sideboard to success lately.

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
2 Surgical Extraction

An extra threat vs DnT, Miracles and other decks where you cannot typically go fast as well as being able to be protected by Safekeeper has been insane.

It might be possible that I can go down on the Cage, 1 Tracker to fit in Rites but this has been working out pretty well.

Yeah, the only reason Rite is good against Miracles is Boseiju :-) The reason it is needed is the crazy amount of ways they have to kill Marit Lage (4x STP, 3x Terminus, 2-3x Unexpectedly Absent, and 3x Snapcaster) plus 12 cantrips to find them. CR for Steppe is not usually enough, Sylvan Safekeeper can be good enough many times, but Rite + Boseiju gives you inevitability in that matchup. Unless I'm about to lose, I would never raw-dog a Rite against Miracles--I always wait until it is a guaranteed kill. And usually you have the time in that matchup to assemble it.

For those of you using Tireless Tracker--what matchups? What seems to make it so useful? What do you tend to side out in those matchups?

[solnox]

Tireless Tracker is the nuts vs UW/X decks like Stoneblade and Miracles

For Miracles, I like to board

+3 Tireless Tracker
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Mishra's Factory
+3 Abrupt Decay

-4 Lotus Petal
-3 Elvish Spirit Guide
-1 Bojuka Bog

Vs DnT

+3 Tireless Tracker
+1 Sylvan Library
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Karakas

-4 Petal
-1 Bog
-4 ESG

[apple713]

Has anyone tried Carpet of Flowers? I've been trying 1 lately against blue wasteland decks and it has been helpful.

adrieng tried it and eventually dropped it. IIRC the meta was even slightly more blue dominant.

[Thoughtsauce]

How do people feel about this list from This Week in Legacy over at MTGGoldfish? I know I've seen users kick this kind of thing around before with Trackers and whatnot, seems like a fun (if slow) approach to the deck. I'm jamming it tonight at FNM for kicks.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
4 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Mutavault
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
4 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Faerie Macabre

[Bam Bam]

Hey guys, I'm having trouble with the aggro loam and lands matchup. Mostly due to inexperience imo. Could I get a few pointers on them? They have quite the variety of answers, so it's really tough to play around all. Is rite of consumption worth the sb slot? I'm basically running a "stock" list except deathrites instead of esg, and 2 bobs instead of 2 maps.

[DNSolver]

Playing Rite will help in those matchups no doubt. However, that's pretty narrow.

If you're playing my main+sideboard, those matchups should be fine-ish, but DRS should help you in both matchups IMO. Lands is beatable with Surgicals, Needles, and Libraries. Against 4C loam (which barely exists anymore, hard to play that deck vs Fatal Push + Snapcasters and DRS running around) you can play Library on the play but on the draw you might be better off just going faster than them. I want Decay vs 4c Loam too. I sideboard something like:

Lands:
-8 fast mana
-some discard maybe
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Needle
+1 Karakas
+3 library
+1 Decay
+more Decays

4C Loam:
Play:
-8 fast mana
+4 Abrupt Decay
+3 Library
+1 Needle
Draw:
-5 discard/fast mana mix
+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Needle

As far as the list Thoughtsauce posted, maindeck Surgicals are bad, and most grindy matchups are pretty good already with just Library as grind fuel. The rest of the deck should be focused on redundancy and speed for the faster matchups.

[funnywille]

Look at the sweet upcoming buff to Dark Depths.
From the card rulings in Iconic Masters for Magus of the Moon,
If a nonbasic land has an ability that applies "as [this land] enters the battlefield" or that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped or with counters, the land will lose that ability before it applies. This is a change from previous rules.

So putting into play Dark Depths with Moon out makes it have zero counters and we can Decay for an immediate Marit Lage.

It's a minor case, but I still expect to play against a Moon deck once every large tournament, so this is something that should come up reasonably often.

So who's up for Moon Depths?

[chaosjace]

Look at the sweet upcoming buff to Dark Depths.
From the card rulings in Iconic Masters for Magus of the Moon,
If a nonbasic land has an ability that applies "as [this land] enters the battlefield" or that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped or with counters, the land will lose that ability before it applies. This is a change from previous rules.

So putting into play Dark Depths with Moon out makes it have zero counters and we can Decay for an immediate Marit Lage.

It's a minor case, but I still expect to play against a Moon deck once every large tournament, so this is something that should come up reasonably often.

So who's up for Moon Depths?

Does this only apply to magus or blood moon also? What a time to be playing depths.

[procobrito]

Does this only apply to magus or blood moon also? What a time to be playing depths.

looks like not only moon, but any similar effect, like Humility.

[ottomanottoman]

Look at the sweet upcoming buff to Dark Depths.
From the card rulings in Iconic Masters for Magus of the Moon,
If a nonbasic land has an ability that applies "as [this land] enters the battlefield" or that causes it to enter the battlefield tapped or with counters, the land will lose that ability before it applies. This is a change from previous rules.

So putting into play Dark Depths with Moon out makes it have zero counters and we can Decay for an immediate Marit Lage.

It's a minor case, but I still expect to play against a Moon deck once every large tournament, so this is something that should come up reasonably often.

So who's up for Moon Depths?

Back on turbo depths for the first time in a while and it looks like sylvan safekeeper is the status quo now? Is anyone running not of this world anymore? Also this^^^^ is fantastic news lol. There's a guy in my local meta who only plays moon decks along with another mono-tezzerator guy who splashes for blood moon and it'll be nice to have a little extra edge in those matchups.

[DNSolver]

Guys, if you think about it, the Moon change doesn't matter much. Realistically, if we can Decay their only Blood Moon effect, we're going to win that game anyway if they are playing Red Stompy. Against something like Miracles or Stoneblade that is playing Moon against us, we only want to make the 20/20 when we're ready (have disruption ready to go, and after we resolve Sylvan Safekeeper or whatever), so making the 20/20 as soon as we kill the moon is actually suboptimal.

@ottoman Sylvan Safekeeper is really really good. Sometimes he wins the game immediately upon resolution. It also provides insulation against Diabolic Edict, which is one alternative reason why I switched to it.

[procobrito]

Guys, if you think about it, the Moon change doesn't matter much. Realistically, if we can Decay their only Blood Moon effect, we're going to win that game anyway if they are playing Red Stompy. Against something like Miracles or Stoneblade that is playing Moon against us, we only want to make the 20/20 when we're ready (have disruption ready to go, and after we resolve Sylvan Safekeeper or whatever), so making the 20/20 as soon as we kill the moon is actually suboptimal.

@ottoman Sylvan Safekeeper is really really good. Sometimes he wins the game immediately upon resolution. It also provides insulation against Diabolic Edict, which is one alternative reason why I switched to it.

But playing against Red Stompy, you could sideout a hexmage or stage, since you really just need more ways to remove those moons, right?

[DNSolver]

Not really. The hands they have the hardest time interacting with are turn 1 discard into turn 2 combo on the play, or turn 1 combo, or turn 1 discard, turn 2 Decay, turn 3 combo. I wouldn't side those out when we can side out Sylvan Safekeeper / Not of This World, Pithing Needles, Steppe, and Bog for Decays and Libraries.

[caseyc]

Guys, if you think about it, the Moon change doesn't matter much. Realistically, if we can Decay their only Blood Moon effect, we're going to win that game anyway if they are playing Red Stompy. Against something like Miracles or Stoneblade that is playing Moon against us, we only want to make the 20/20 when we're ready (have disruption ready to go, and after we resolve Sylvan Safekeeper or whatever), so making the 20/20 as soon as we kill the moon is actually suboptimal.

@ottoman Sylvan Safekeeper is really really good. Sometimes he wins the game immediately upon resolution. It also provides insulation against Diabolic Edict, which is one alternative reason why I switched to it.

I am currently running 2x Sylvan Safekeeper (I think most people run 3x). However, I have some mixed feelings about them. Here is why: what matchups do we want that effect? DnT, Miracles, Maverick, not sure what else. In all of those matchups, I bring in Rite of Consumption out of the board which provides insulation against targeted effects. I guess the reasons to run Safekeeper are: 1) provide protection from targeted effects game one, and 2) have multiple ways to deal with those effects post-board. But in so many matchups they are dead cards--so I am currently feeling begrudging to their use in my main deck. I guess if you don't run the Rite of COnsuption sb plan (though you really should), then Safekeeper is baller. I'd appreciate hearing others input :-)

[jdc5011]

Not really. The hands they have the hardest time interacting with are turn 1 discard into turn 2 combo on the play, or turn 1 combo, or turn 1 discard, turn 2 Decay, turn 3 combo. I wouldn't side those out when we can side out Sylvan Safekeeper / Not of This World, Pithing Needles, Steppe, and Bog for Decays and Libraries.

That's pretty much how I board for this. Although I lost last week to a turn 1 duress on the play which saw a magus, SSG and sol land. :-( He got turn 1 magus both games 1 and 2. Not much can be done there.

[DNSolver]

@jdc Yeah sometimes Duress won't do it - this is one reason to consider Inquisition of Kozilek, but that matchup is probably so bad and Force of Will is so much better to take that no one should switch on this reasoning.

@caseyc Safekeeper is like Not of This World in that it's only good in those matchups you listed, plus Lands, but it's also acceptable in other matchups such as Grixis / 10color blue cards where their best plan is Edicting you or block with Strix + Jace/Lily you. Safekeeper answers Jace or Lily or Edict if you play it appropriately. At worst it blocks an Angler or holds off a Young Pyromancer for a bit. Pretty much, we need to run something to answer the Karakas / Swords to Plowshares decks that make our deck look embarrassingly bad, and Safekeeper, I'm convinced, is the best. The rest of the deck wrecks everything else except Red Stompy.